Dizerner
Active Member
Sounds like you are saying God begat God.
He did.
He's cool like that.
Sounds like you are saying God begat God.
That’s ECF language not biblical , just sayin
Here is an article, part of it, that helped shape my understanding of the Trinity, written by a guy name Dr Pound,Yes, I know people can misunderstand it. But we must not shy away from a view just because it can be misunderstood.
Paul had people misunderstand his view of grace to mean it's okay to sin, because it sounded so close to that.
Derivation is not creation out of nothing—things beget after their own kind.
The Spirit and Son inherit the same nature of aseity.
Biblical Trinity Views and the Ancient Nicenists The Nicene statement of the Trinity comes from those who are called the Greek Theologians. The Greek Theologians made God the Father the source of God the Word and God the Holy Spirit. Nicenism teaches the terrible concept of the eternal generation o f the Divine Being, God the eternal Word. It also teaches the terrible concept of the Eternal Procession of the Holy Spirit. These are incorrect concepts because they made the Eternal Word and the Holy Spirit both to come forth from God the Father. Controversy over Eternal Generation In historical theology the controversy over eternal generation came to a head in the Arian controversy. In time the Nicenists won the contest and all became branded as heretics and Arians who denied the eternal generation of God the Eternal Word and later the Eternal Procession of God the Holy Spirit. The Macedonian Controversy In historical theology, the controversy over the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit is known as the Macedonian controversy. This name comes from the chief location of opposition to Nicenian Pneumatology that arose just following the Nicenian Controversy. Is God the Father the Source of Other Divine Beings? The Nicenian Creed teaches that God the Father is the source of God the Eternal Word and the Holy Spirit. Their statement regarding the origin of God the Word is terrible enough, but their assertion that God the Father joined with God the Son and They Two produced yet another Divine Being, the Holy Spirit, is terrible blasphemy. In the past I have called this divine incest and it ranks at or near the top of all the terrible blasphemies and false doctrines that the beast system has produced. The background for Nicenism is Greek Mythology. Zeus is the Greek mythological god who is the father of all other gods and mankind. The Nicenists simply sprinkled holy water on Greek mythology and made it into the standard Trinity confession of false Christianity. Our Position on the Holy Trinity is: That the Holy Trinity consists of God the Father, God the Eternal Word, and God the Holy Spirit, and these three Divine Beings are One in the Divine Nature. This is the heart and soul of the true and proper I John 5:7 as found in the Old Italic and ancient Greek Textus Receptus. This sets forth both the economy of the Holy Trinity, Three Divine Beings, and the Unity of the Holy Trinity, the One Divine Nature. If either the Economy or the Unity of the Holy Trinity is denied, in any way, then the Holy Trinity is not properly presented.Maintaining the Three Essential Divine Attributes While many who consider themselves as Biblical Trinitarians deny this statement of the Holy Trinity, and yet affirm their Nicenian views of the Trinity, what they are doing is maintaining a Trinity of successive Beings, but they cannot affirm that the three essential attributes of Deity dwell within Each member of the Holy Trinity. They, of course, think they do, but they do not. Our definition of the Holy Trinity or Elohem, affirms that Each Divine Being is self-existent, not just the Father, but the Word and the Holy Spirit as well, self-sufficient, not just the Father, but God the Word and God the Holy Spirit as well, and Immutable. Nicenists want to claim that the Father is the only Divine Being Who is Ingenerate, and by this they deny the self-existence of the Word and Holy Spirit in their Divine Beings. Nicenists try to circumvent this by saying that their self-existence is in their Divine Nature, but this is theological double talk. At issue here is the grand distinction of essential attributes between the Biblical position of the Trinity and the Trinity as held by Nicenists and other Systemic Theologians. Do we believe in Three Divine Beings in succession or in Three Divine Beings Who are self-existent, selfsufficient and immutable in both their Nature and their Being? The Divine Attribute of Immutability While the Nicenists claim that the Divine Attribute of Immutability belongs to each member of the Holy Trinity, they make this claim for the Divine nature and cannot make this in actual fact for the Divine Beings. The reason, if God the Father is not and has not always been God the Father, then He became something He was not before He was God the Father. If God the Word became the Eternal Word after eternal generation, that He was not God the Word before His supposed eternal generation. If God the Holy Spirit became God the Holy Spirit by and after proceeding forth from the Father, though the Son, then it is obvious that He was not God the Holy Spirit before His eternal procession. I realize that the Imperial ministers of the beast deny these conclusions, but if words have any meaning, and they do, these conclusions are valid. Each Divine Being in the Holy Trinity, Elohem, is Immutable not only in His Divine Nature, but in His Divine Being as well. The Biblical teaching of the Holy Trinity sets forth both the Immutability of the Divine Nature and the Immutability of the Divine Beings in Whom that Divine Nature Indwells. Nicenism does not. The Eternal Generation of Jesus Christ refers ONLY to His sacred Manhood, not His deity. The procession of the Holy Spirit refers ONLY to His timely work in the Covenant of Redemption, and not His supposed eternal origin from the Father. The Attribute of Self-Existence The Eternal Generation of God the Word denies in fact, the Eternal Sonship of God the Word. He is, within and of Himself, the only Self-Existent Son in all existence. I know that Nicenists deny this conclusion, but again if words have any meaning, and they do, then this is a valid charge against Nicenism. God the Word did not become the Son of God by any act of the Father, but He is the Eternal Son and Self-Existent in both His Divine Being and His Divine Nature. Is this one reason why God the Word hypostasized Jesus Christ, in His Sacred Manhood, and not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit? I feel certain this is one of the reasons. The same is true of God the Holy Sprit, both God the Holy Spirit and God the Word, are self-existent in their Divine Beings and their one common Divine Nature. God the Word and God the Holy Spirit are just as self-existent as God the Father in their Divine Beings and their Divine Nature. Neither of the Divine Beings owes their origin to each other or else they are not equal Divine Beings. How can Divine Beings be, One Ingenerate, another generate and yet another proceeding from both? Such defies all Revelation and Revealed Verbal Inspiration. Words do have meanings. Inspired words have inspired meanings. To the credit of the Greek branch of Imperial Churchism, they deny eternal procession leaving it to the Romans. The Attribute of Self-Sufficiency Each Divine Being is totally and completely self-sufficient in both their Divine Being and their Divine nature. If God the Father is the originator of the Word and Holy Sprit, then it follows that they owe their origins to Him and are not SelfSufficient. This is not the case as Each of the Three Divine Beings is SelfSufficient in their Being and their Nature. Therefore, we maintain that the Biblical statement of the Holy Trinity is correct and the Nicenian statement is incorrect. Let us now consider some further issues concerning Biblical Trinitarianism and the human invention of Nicenism. The Nicenian Bibles The ancient Nicene Creed is joined by two ancient Greek Manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Alexandrinus. Each of these ancient Greek Manuscripts are so lacking that it is strange that anyone would call them “better and superior” manuscripts. However, I am not going to discuss their demerits, and there are many, but their historical connections to false doctrines and persecutions. Nicenism is the result of Constantine the Great’s efforts to resolve the Arian controversy. The Nicenists sought to maintain the Deity of God the Son, the Word, as they say by Eternal Generation, and God the Holy Spirit by the terrible notion that both came from God the Father. Because the Father is Divine so is His Son and They Two produced the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is divine, they pretend, because He is the joint production of God the Father and God the Son, both Divine. After Constantine’s Imperial Bishops produced the Nicene Creed, he commissioned Eusebius the Historian, to produce one common and correct uniform Bible for the Roman Empire. I call this the Constantine-Eusebius Bible. This Eusebius did and as was the custom of the day among the Imperial Orthodox, he left out those scriptures that the so-called heretics relied upon to teach their concepts. This is why he left out the true and proper I John 5:7, as stated in the Old Italic and the Greek Textus Receptus. See Burgon’s The Causes of Corruptions
Yes the ECF languageNot sure what you mean here.
Early church fathers?
I mean they weren't wrong on everything.
I'll argue for created.Acquired is the best sense of the idea here.
BTW this by no means mean I endorse everything written by Dr Pound:
I'll argue for created.
So do you. I am glad we understand each other.I mean you have humongous presuppositions you want to protect, so I understand.
So do you. I am glad we understand each other.
Man says Jesus is God and man.As a Man He had a God and was Gods Son, but as God He is God. What you little zealots forget Jesus is God/Man
Yes, you're more open minded than the rest of the crowd you run with. I've seen that about you by reading your comments. Growing can be painful, especially at the beginning, but it gets easier when it isn't resisted.I'm willing to hear God say something I do not previously like, so I am not coming trying to protect them, per se.
So have I and I agree. Test every spirit; they're not all from God unfortunately.I've also had several encounters with God, and I do not just trust my mind, as that can be misled by Satan.
That's true. There are certainly ways to translate a Bible with a Trinitarian lean to them. There are also ways to translate the Bible with a Unitarian lean to them.But language, on its own, can be stretched to mean almost anything, and I recognize that problem.