Jacob and Esau

I have not used any outside source regarding time. That’s from your camp not mine. It comes from the wisdom of man , not Gods word.

Where does God say “ I created time “ ?

Sola Scripture:)
No problem. If you are close minded I can't help, since I am in need of illumination myself.
Where does it say in the Bible "I am trinity?
 
No problem. If you are close minded I can't help, since I am in need of illumination myself.
Where does it say in the Bible "I am trinity?
I’m asking for Scripture where God speaks, revealing His truth, not man’s ideas and concepts.
 
I’m asking for Scripture where God speaks, revealing His truth, not man’s ideas and concepts.
Exactly-where is it written "I am trinity?" or "I am God?" We HAVE to rely on scholarly work and to search the Scriptures like Bereans-now you say you don't rely or accept scholars? Is that what you are saying?
 
Exactly-where is it written "I am trinity?" or "I am God?" We HAVE to rely on scholarly work and to search the Scriptures like Bereans-now you say you don't rely or accept scholars? Is that what you are saying?
The Bible tells us God is plural so your argument is a fallacy.

Where does the Bible say God created time ?
 
I don't claim authority of any sort. I don't need to. As long you recognize evidence, I'm fine.

As far as knowledge is concerned, I have vastly more knowledge about the Scriptures than any of you. I show it every time I post. I'm not copying and pasting responses from others. I write my own.
1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant
 
LOL, your the same people who scream all means all.

Easy
God created all things including time. God is not subject to the rules of time.
I have to agree

Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
 
I'm interested in your honest assessment of my "gnostic-masonic" ways...
Gnostics and modern Masons believe that GOD is a duality in that they believe HE is both good and evil and creates both good and evil as per the superficial reading of Isa 45:7. I suggest that the belief that GOD creates sinners by any means such as by the surrogate Adam, is a gnostic holdover from the early days when such ideas were not so fine tuned.

I slide such ideas into conversations to help people think about this contradiction within the orthodox doctrines of our creation and fall...so thanks for asking.

Since I accept that people are sinners at conception because death proves sin, and since I reject that GOD creates sinfulness by any means I must conclude that our conception cannot be our creation.
 
However, I would argue that there is no evidence of such among the canonical texts of the NT writers. I'm open to evidence otherwise
The problem is that there have been millenia of counter translations and interpretations to our pre-earth existence that no one even sees the pce implications of the hints to our pce found in either testament. Since ordinary interpretations seem logical as supports for church doctrine, it is easy to pass them over a hints to a pre-conception existence.

Your use of the word evidence rather than proof is meaningful but I think that perhaps there is a tinge of 'no proof' within this lack of evidence in that if a verse CAN be interpreted for pce without doing it any damage then, though it is not proof it should be interpreted as a pce support, it certainly must be included as evidence for such support. I know of some 3 dozen verses which can be seen as support, evidence, for PCE Theology but I have never counted how many are NT verses and, for myself, I do not suggest they prove our pre-conception existence. But without a study of the verses there is no way that a theologically minded person can withstand the eisegetic interpretations which support their chosen pov. Iow, merely listing the verses would achieve nothing, sigh.

My current favorite is the parable of the weeds, Matt 13:27-30 and especially the explanation of the parable in verses Matt 13:36-39, which makes no sense at all within favourite theologies.

I also like to repeat my desire for someone to find me a verse which claims or even hints that our pre-earth existence is impossible… After some 15 years of asking, no one has presented one yet.
 
The primary source of that information is found in Enoch. No one can take the extant book of Enoch seriously as a whole. It has changed significantly over time. Why wouldn't it? It only survived the flood among 8 people. Enoch is a very important person but we do not have evidence that establishes him more than the 7th from Adam. Which is significant. Adam lived to see Enoch born. It is my belief that Adam trained Enoch about God.
While Enoch is used often to support PCE doctrine I read it over in the 70s and have never used it at all...it is just too controversial and there is absolutely no need to depend upon it at all to my mind.
 
Wisdom 8:20 speaks of innocence. We know it doesn't teach what you're claiming because of what is written in Wisdom chapter 7.

Wis 7:1 I myself am a mortal man, like all others, and of the race of him, that was first made of the earth, and in the womb of my mother I was fashioned to be flesh.
...fashioned to be flesh can be interpreted without damage to the words as written to mean that his body was fashioned as the reciprocal for his spirit sown into his body by the breath of GOD, Matt 13:38.

We each have our eisegetical interpretation of these words as our pov instructs us.
 
Foreoved? Those whom He foreloved? The word is a verb.

Romans 8:28–29 (ESV) — 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
YES - foreknew means foreloved.

To flesh this out a bit...

Romans 8:29 For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.
From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before earthly life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation as if our earthly life was the same as our creation. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?

GOD obviously does not before life know everybody since not everyone will become like Jesus, which Rom 8:29 defines predestination to mean and, as per Matthew 7:21– 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ which tells us what knowing means, emphasising the idea that loving is knowing and knowing about has no love.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
Jesus obviously knew about the demons and knew about the miracle workers but this knowing contained no love as it is plain, He never knew them.

This means that foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.

Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD "before life" love some and not the rest?

This would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular "before life" love. GOD's election / foreknowing is thus based on eenie, meenie, minie, moe, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we cannot find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

Now, according to pre-conception existence theology, the "before life" love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-life approval of some and rejection of the rest was based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature (in Sheol, before physical creation) and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM.

The reason why HE loved some "before this life" and why HE did not love the rest is found in their (our) response for or against HIM when He proclaimed to every creature under heaven HIS divinity and HIS gospel of salvation from sin, Col 1:23.

Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves and some had not. Some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose, some willingly, (angels) and others only if HE was infallibly gracious ( by election) to them (His fallen church). Yes, and He predestined these sinful people of HIS kingdom by their faith to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the other sinful people of the evil one for the Day of Judgement, Jn 3:18, and established them for the correction of the fallen elect. Matt 13:29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest...that is, until the sinful elect give up their willingness to live with the evil of the reprobate and choose to be holy and in full accord with the judgement.

In short, the Satanic fall happened before the creation of the physical universe and was the reason for their reprobation before the foundation of the world....not whim.
 
YES - foreknew means foreloved.

To flesh this out a bit...

Romans 8:29 For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.
From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before earthly life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation as if our earthly life was the same as our creation. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?

GOD obviously does not before life know everybody since not everyone will become like Jesus, which Rom 8:29 defines predestination to mean and, as per Matthew 7:21– 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ which tells us what knowing means, emphasising the idea that loving is knowing and knowing about has no love.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
Jesus obviously knew about the demons and knew about the miracle workers but this knowing contained no love as it is plain, He never knew them.

This means that foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.

Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD "before life" love some and not the rest?

This would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular "before life" love. GOD's election / foreknowing is thus based on eenie, meenie, minie, moe, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we cannot find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

Now, according to pre-conception existence theology, the "before life" love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-life approval of some and rejection of the rest was based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature (in Sheol, before physical creation) and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM.

The reason why HE loved some "before this life" and why HE did not love the rest is found in their (our) response for or against HIM when He proclaimed to every creature under heaven HIS divinity and HIS gospel of salvation from sin, Col 1:23.

Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves and some had not. Some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose, some willingly, (angels) and others only if HE was infallibly gracious ( by election) to them (His fallen church). Yes, and He predestined these sinful people of HIS kingdom by their faith to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the other sinful people of the evil one for the Day of Judgement, Jn 3:18, and established them for the correction of the fallen elect. Matt 13:29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest...that is, until the sinful elect give up their willingness to live with the evil of the reprobate and choose to be holy and in full accord with the judgement.

In short, the Satanic fall happened before the creation of the physical universe and was the reason for their reprobation before the foundation of the world....not whim.
um No everyone does not admit that in this verse, the word “fore” means before earthly life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation as if our earthly life was the same as our creation. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?

We must clearly understand how Paul is using the word "foreknow" in this passage. He is not talking about God looking down the corridors of time from eternity past and into the future. The idea of God knowing the future is not even present in this passage. If indeed Paul was referring to "those He foreknew," in the sense of those He knew about in the future, we would have to say he knew everyone and then we would also have to say he predestined everyone to be conformed to the image of God's Son. The word "foreknow" here is used in the sense of God knowing some people in an intimate personal relational sense, in the past, as in "Adam knew Eve" and "I never knew you." The people that God foreknows are "those who love Him" as Paul has just mentioned in the previous verse. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "if anyone loves God, he is known by Him."

1 Corinthians 8:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

Galatians 4:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?


Formerly Known (known before) As in Romans 11:2, Paul is simply referring to saints of old in former times who loved God and were known by Him. Paul said, The man who loves God is known by God (1 Cor. 8:3). And men like Elijah and those who refused to bow a knee to false gods did love God and thus were known by him in the past. They were foreknown (previously known) by God, as in they had an intimate personal relationship with God in the past. There is no reason to add all the esoteric theological baggage of God looking through corridors of time or making arbitrary sovereign choices about who He will and will not love before the world began.
 
If indeed Paul was referring to "those He foreknew," in the sense of those He knew about in the future, we would have to say he knew everyone and then we would also have to say he predestined everyone to be conformed to the image of God's Son.
My post #196 suggests that this analysis just is not ture, since foreknew has an element of loving relationship and just knowing about someone, though for the same length of time, is not called foreknowledge.

Please read it again from this pov, ok?
 
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