Jacob and Esau

[Presby02]

Your theology however must act as though it never does in any atonement text


1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Let's say that's true. The positive assertion is yours along with the burden of proof. Have fun

 

[Presby02]

wake up

You believe they were unconditionally elected to be saved before the foundation of the earth

You do not believe they were saved at that time

you do believe they were saved later in time

so your view is simply God had a plan to save those men at some future time

you cannot escape it

it was not a reality that they were saved before the foundation of the earth

therefore it can only be a plan, an intension, a purpose (chose your word)

Still no mention of a plan.

A plan assumes time which God exists outside and is not subject to the rules thereof.

 

[civic]

Still no mention of a plan.

A plan assumes time which God exists outside and is not subject to the rules thereof.

Are you claiming election and predestination is not Gods plan ?

 

[Presby02]

Are you claiming election and predestination is not Gods plan ?

how about helping Tom out and show us where it mentions a "plan"

 

[civic]

how about helping Tom out and show us where it mentions a "plan"

So God didn’t plan anything I got it so you must not believe tulip .

 

[TomL]

Still no mention of a plan.

A plan assumes time which God exists outside and is not subject to the rules thereof.

you can't escape it

You believe they were unconditionally elected to be saved before the foundation of the earth

You do not believe they were saved at that time

you do believe they were saved later in time

so your view is simply God had a plan to save those men at some future time

you cannot escape it

it was not a reality that they were saved before the foundation of the earth

therefore it can only be a plan, an intention, a purpose (chose your word)

God may exist outside of time, but you do not, and you experience salvation in time

as does everyone else.

 

[TomL]

Let's say that's true. The positive assertion is yours along with the burden of proof. Have fun

It's quite easy

take for example

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Do all men receive condemnation in Adam?

 

[civic]

you can't escape it

You believe they were unconditionally elected to be saved before the foundation of the earth

You do not believe they were saved at that time

you do believe they were saved later in time

so your view is simply God had a plan to save those men at some future time

you cannot escape it

it was not a reality that they were saved before the foundation of the earth

therefore it can only be a plan, an intention, a purpose (chose your word)

God may exist outside of time, but you do not, and you experience salvation in time

as does everyone else.

Yep some cannot follow simple logic and reasoning

 

[Presby02]

It's quite easy

take for example

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Do all men receive condemnation in Adam?

Contextually, yup. Great example. Thanks

 

[civic]

Contextually, yup. Great example. Thanks

here we go popcorn time early in the morning for breakfast

 

[Presby02]

you can't escape it

You believe they were unconditionally elected to be saved before the foundation of the earth

You do not believe they were saved at that time

you do believe they were saved later in time

so your view is simply God had a plan to save those men at some future time

you cannot escape it

it was not a reality that they were saved before the foundation of the earth

therefore it can only be a plan, an intention, a purpose (chose your word)

God may exist outside of time, but you do not, and you experience salvation in time

as does everyone else.

Nothing to escape. You can not prove your assertion. You simply question begging.

Now your on to something. The Bible is written based on the rules of time that we exist in. We cannot even conceive of what it means to exist in timelessness.

 

[TomL]

Contextually, yup. Great example. Thanks

Now look at the second half

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[TomL]

Nothing to escape. You can not prove your assertion. You simply question begging.

Now your on to something. The Bible is written based on the rules of time that we exist in. We cannot even conceive of what it means to exist in timelessness.

Sorry you are in denial
you can't escape it

You believe they were unconditionally elected to be saved before the foundation of the earth

You do not believe they were saved at that time

you do believe they were saved later in time

so your view is simply God had a plan to save those men at some future time

you cannot escape it

it was not a reality that they were saved before the foundation of the earth

therefore it can only be a plan, an intention, a purpose (chose your word)

God may exist outside of time, but you do not, and you experience salvation in time

as does everyone else.

 

[civic]

Now look at the second half

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

oh but wait a minute the same word all can't possibly mean the same thing in both rofl

 

[Presby02]

Now look at the second half

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So all are justified then?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Now look at the second half

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

If we are justified by faith, then the above verse is saying the free gift is faith.

 

[Presby02]

Sorry you are in denial
you can't escape it

You believe they were unconditionally elected to be saved before the foundation of the earth

You do not believe they were saved at that time

you do believe they were saved later in time

so your view is simply God had a plan to save those men at some future time

you cannot escape it

it was not a reality that they were saved before the foundation of the earth

therefore it can only be a plan, an intention, a purpose (chose your word)

God may exist outside of time, but you do not, and you experience salvation in time

as does everyone else.

Exactly
You got it. You won't admit but you understand perfectly.

 

[Presby02]

16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

If we are justified by faith, then the above verse is saying the free gift is faith.

That to. Good point.

 

[TomL]

Exactly
You got it. You won't admit but you understand perfectly.

But you don't

You believe they were unconditionally elected to be saved before the foundation of the earth

You do not believe they were saved at that time

you do believe they were saved later in time

so your view is simply God had a plan to save those men at some future time

you cannot escape it

it was not a reality that they were saved before the foundation of the earth

therefore it can only be a plan, an intention, a purpose (chose your word)

God may exist outside of time, but you do not, and you experience salvation in time

as does everyone else.

 

[TomL]

16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

If we are justified by faith, then the above verse is saying the free gift is faith.

Not in the least

Romans 5:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Christ his grace is the gift here