Isaiah 53 the origin of PSA
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Punishing Jesus at all is an exception to God reserving judgement for unrepentant sinners. You can't cherry pick a verse and apply it where it does not necessarily belong.
Diserner
Well-known member
Taking the scripture to use in making your point, Cherry picking as you call it, Is bad. But just totally making things up as your statement above and bold shows is okay.
So let me post it for you one more time. Since Jesus is the same yesterday and forever (Hebrews 13:8), God separating him into being just a man for a period of time would contradict Hebrews 13:8.
Diserner
Well-known member
Hebrews 13:8 Belongs throughout the entire Bible. Therefore it's impossible to cherry pick.
civic
Well-known member
Immutable, never changing. The Father and Son are eternally One. One before creation, one during creation, one after this creation gets renewed, one before the cross, one on the cross, one after the cross. If nothing can separate a believer from Christ(Romans 8) nothing can separate the Tri- Unity of God.
Someone needs to put on their spiritual thinking
caps lol.
Diserner
Well-known member
That's a must before posting. I always make sure I have my theologian hat on and I'm sitting in my theologian armchair.Immutable, never changing. The Father and Son are eternally One. One before creation, one during creation, one after this creation gets renewed, one before the cross, one on the cross, one after the cross. If nothing can separate a believer from Christ(Romans 8) nothing can separate the Tri- Unity of God.
Someone needs to put on their spiritual thinking
civic
Well-known member
Love it
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Nice..... It might be good to detail Immutability.
Some people establish distinctions between nature and character. I simply deal with Immutability relative to God's Character.
God has never needed change relative to character. He is perfect. Complete. Without need of anything external to His own character.
However, this does not mean that God doesn't change His mind. When God deals with the changeable.... He often changes His mind relative to the actions of the mutable.
For example. God's forgiveness. If God doesn't change His mind about the sinner, then we are yet still in our sins. This doesn't establish mutability relative to character.
Many theologians insist that it does. What are you thoughts?
God answer is always the same relative to character. Those that meet God's requirements, all get the same answer.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Immutable, never changing. The Father and Son are eternally One. One before creation, one during creation, one after this creation gets renewed, one before the cross, one on the cross, one after the cross. If nothing can separate a believer from Christ(Romans 8) nothing can separate the Tri- Unity of God.
Someone needs to put on their spiritual thinking
The Bible also says it is appointed to man once to die... someone needs to inform people like Lazarus.
Anja
Member
Lazarus knows. It is appointed unto men once to die, but Jesus has conquered sin and death, and for this reason, we must pay close attention to Him and what He has done and said (Hebrews 2:1).
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
You missed my point. There are exceptions to things according to God's will.
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
If one's argument is to dismiss the possibility that Jesus was made only human for a moment because Jesus is the same before now, and forever, then what is Jesus complaining about? And shouldn't he be saying, "My Self, My Self, why have I forsaken myself?"
civic
Well-known member
He is declaring He is the Messiah by quoting the first verse in Psalm 22.
Psalm 22
The messianic passage of Psalm 22 was played out before their very eyes, and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah, by quoting Psalm 22. The passage was being lived out before all witnesses of the crucifixion. It is a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, God's One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many.
What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone, but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. Moreover, let us not forget Jesus' promise to the sinner, "Today, you will be with me in paradise Luke 23:4." For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. The Trinity was never fractured, broken, or severed for even a moment, but together, the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners.
It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning. Furthermore, when this reconciliation took place at the cross, we read that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - 2 Corinthians 5:19. The book of Romans states that "God demonstrated His love for us that while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). So Jesus' sacrificial atonement both propitiates (turns away God’s wrath) and expiates (covers our sins). Gods’ wrath does not fall on the sacrifice. Scripture teaches us that sin was condemned in the flesh, not that Jesus was condemned (Romans 8:3).
There are 10 points about God and Jesus' last words that are important to examine. Some people taught when Jesus said (My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me) that the Father departed, deserted, and turned His back upon His Son to bear God’s wrath on the cross. They teach from the pulpits that God is too Holy to look upon sin. However, is this teaching biblical? Is it true?
1-God is Triune- Tri-Unity
2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated, or abandoned.
3- God does not send His wrath against God
4- Jesus is God
5- Context has meaning, and all the gospel accounts work together along with the O.T. quotations
6-In Luke 23:46, Jesus' last words were," Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit."
7- Within Psalm 22, there are numerous details regarding Jesus' crucifixion. For example, Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him. Further, Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help.
8- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus' trust and relationship with the Father when he states, "Into your hands, I commit MY Spirit."
9- Psalm 22:1 was Jesus’ cry in response to his enemies' surrounding him like David, not about the Father turning away from him.
10- Psalm 22 and Jesus last words are a declaration, a proclamation that He is the promised Messiah described in great detail in this Psalm.
hope this helps !!!
Anja
Member
Exceptions, so if we come across things we don't like in the Bible we label them exceptions and just tear that page out.
Diserner
Well-known member
I find it probable that Jesus, who lived by Scripture and believed that he was fulfilling Scripture (Mark14:49), would turn to Scripture for solace when he was in desperate straits. Mark tells us that when Jesus cried out, it was the ninth hour, the Jewish hour of prayer (cf. Acts 3:1), and Jesus prayed the prayer of the righteous sufferer, who trusts fully in God’s protection. Psalm 22 naturally came to mind because he was mocked (Ps. 22:7–9), his strength was dried up (Ps 22:15–16), his hands and feet were pierced (Ps 22:16), and his garments were divided (Ps 22:18). Jesus therefore did not simply let out an anguished wail of pain but deliberately quoted this lament, which moves from an expression of pain to confidence in God’s deliverance. Why would Jesus cry out to an absent God unless he believed that God was indeed there to hear and able to deliver him? Senior argues:
These words are, in effect, the final version of the prayer in Gethsemane where, also in a “lament,” Jesus affirmed his unbroken trust in his Father while feeling the full horror of approaching death (Mark14:32–42).
Some ask, reasonably, why Jesus should have quoted the beginning of Psalm 22 if he was alluding to its end? One could not expect a crucifixion victim, painfully struggling for every breath, to recite the entire psalm. Without chapter and verse divisions in the Hebrew Scriptures, specific passages were cited often by the first verse or key phrases. One can see an example of this practice in Mark 12:26, when Jesus referred to a specific passage as from “the book of Moses, in the account of the bush.” This particular passage is indicated by referring to a key phrase. Jews in Jesus’ day were immersed in the Scripture the way moderns are immersed in television and the movies, and they would know that Psalm 22 begins with despair but ends on a triumphant note.
In other words, by using Psalm 22, Jesus chose to complain stridently about his suffering and tragedy but to look beyond it to express his faith in the God who vindicates the righteous. He identifies himself with the righteous sufferer, who feels the pain of his testing but whose intimacy with God allows him to voice his complaint bluntly and to demand rescue. He accepts his suffering, trusting that God’s intervention will come in his death. If one understands this cry as a prayer, God immediately answers it. The darkness lasting from the sixth to the ninth hour lifts, and the following events reveal in overwhelming fashion that his confident hope in God’s vindication has not been misplaced. “For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help” (Ps. 22:24).
David E. Garland, Mark, The NIV Application Commentary
These words are, in effect, the final version of the prayer in Gethsemane where, also in a “lament,” Jesus affirmed his unbroken trust in his Father while feeling the full horror of approaching death (Mark14:32–42).
Some ask, reasonably, why Jesus should have quoted the beginning of Psalm 22 if he was alluding to its end? One could not expect a crucifixion victim, painfully struggling for every breath, to recite the entire psalm. Without chapter and verse divisions in the Hebrew Scriptures, specific passages were cited often by the first verse or key phrases. One can see an example of this practice in Mark 12:26, when Jesus referred to a specific passage as from “the book of Moses, in the account of the bush.” This particular passage is indicated by referring to a key phrase. Jews in Jesus’ day were immersed in the Scripture the way moderns are immersed in television and the movies, and they would know that Psalm 22 begins with despair but ends on a triumphant note.
In other words, by using Psalm 22, Jesus chose to complain stridently about his suffering and tragedy but to look beyond it to express his faith in the God who vindicates the righteous. He identifies himself with the righteous sufferer, who feels the pain of his testing but whose intimacy with God allows him to voice his complaint bluntly and to demand rescue. He accepts his suffering, trusting that God’s intervention will come in his death. If one understands this cry as a prayer, God immediately answers it. The darkness lasting from the sixth to the ninth hour lifts, and the following events reveal in overwhelming fashion that his confident hope in God’s vindication has not been misplaced. “For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help” (Ps. 22:24).
David E. Garland, Mark, The NIV Application Commentary
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Funny you should accuse me of that, considering the LAST thing I would want Jesus to experience is separation from God. I can't (and don't want to) even imagine what a nightmare that would be for Him. I only think that's what happened because of what scripture says.
Diserner
Well-known member
Well you're in luck, Because Jesus did not experience separation from God. Only some people think that's what happened because they think that's what scriptures say.
Anja
Member
No one accused you of anything. Go back and reread the post.
"My Self, My Self, why have I forsaken myself?" Not to accuse you or anything but where is this found in the Bible? Oh wait you just made it up.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Well, appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, but for what it's worth, J. I. Packer agrees with my interpretation. And I'm more inclined to give his interpretation more weight than yours.
Anja
Member
I think you meant to say you agree with Packers interpretation. And of course you're more fond of your interpretation.
