Isaiah 53 the origin of PSA

[synergy]

This is false.

It would assume the proposition "all killing is inherently evil no matter what."

Thus making God the most evil person to ever exist, for he kills all of his human children—every one of them dies.

It's absurd—and it takes a demonic power to blind the eyes to God's holiness and put humans feeling good as the ultimate idol to be worshiped.

If you ever know the wrath of the One who spread a thousand galaxies and whose purity makes archangels tremble.

Well, you would understand he has the power to kill and make alive, without us whining he is a monster for it.

Such wickedness in the human heart, to criticize God for this power!

To reduce and water down his love to a level of soulish emotional idolatry that his holiness must worship and grovel before!

It is wickedness, and one day when you finally see your evil heart and the power of God and the wrath you actually deserve.

You will fall on your face and repent.

Since when did Jesus, our God, ever go around killing people? Falsehoods will get you nowhere.

 

[civic]

It scares me when people do not understand that as a fact. Throughout history, people with that type of mentality allowed themselves to do unspeakable crimes like that against their fellow man!

Ditto

 

[synergy]

Who is espousing God's "sadistic wrath?"

You wrote the following:

REASON #1: Many passages speak about the active wrath of God.

While Scripture does speak of God’s passive wrath (Rom. 1:24, 26, 28), it also speaks of his active wrath (Rom. 2:16; 12:19; 1 Thess. 1:10; Lk. 12:48; Eph. 2:3). If God is actively wrathful against sin, something (or someone) would need to pay for that wrath. The Bible uses the language of propitiation to describe how God’s wrath was satisfied on Christ (Heb. 2:17; 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:10). All other models of the atonement fail to adequately interact or engage with the language of propitiation (for more on propitiation, see comments on Romans 3:25).

 

[synergy]

Ditto

History is replete with people justifying their killings that way. Muslims come immediately to mind.

 

[civic]

History is replete with people justifying their killings that way. Muslims and Nazis come to mind.

Catholics and reformers who also killed and persecuted their opposition

 

[synergy]

Catholics and reformers who also killed and persecuted their opposition

Exactly! When will man stop that brainwashing of theirs and come to their senses? The pagan view of a wrathful God against his innocent Son must be eliminated forever!

 

[civic]

Exactly! When will man stop that brainwashing of theirs and come to their senses? The pagan view of a wrathful God against his innocent Son must be eliminated forever!

Amen I’ve been on a crusade for the last couple of years every since I left Calvinism

 

[Johann]

You wrote the following:

Biblical-God is holy and just and His wrath is presently abiding upon all unbelievers-why do you see it as "sadistic?"

 

[civic]

Biblical-God is holy and just and His wrath is presently abiding upon all unbelievers-why do you see it as "sadistic?"

No wrath/ anger exists within the Trinity.

Next

 

[Ray]

With the doctrine of penal substitution we are led to believe that God the Father ruptured His relationship with God the Son on the cross in order to punish Jesus. But this element of the doctrine is contrary to the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity. If it were possible for God the Son to be separated from God the Father, even for a moment, then he would not and could not be God.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

With the doctrine of penal substitution we are led to believe that God the Father ruptured His relationship with God the Son on the cross in order to punish Jesus. But this element of the doctrine is contrary to the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity. If it were possible for God the Son to be separated from God the Father, even for a moment, then he would not and could not be God.

Jesus was fully God and fully man. God could have separated and left him just fully man for a period. That would explain this:

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Notice, he didn't say, "Father, why have you forsaken me?"

Why would God do that? In order for Jesus to suffer in the same way the unsaved will suffer without God. Even now, God blesses the unsaved. Rain falls on the just and unjust. But there will come a time when God will sever that connection forever.

 

[Diserner]

Jesus took hell for us.

People need to get over it and stop whining and crying that God is holy.

Thank GOD He did that!!!!!!

 

[synergy]

Jesus took hell for us.
People need to get over it and stop whining and crying that God is holy.

Thank GOD He did that!!!!!!

Actually, Jesus went to Hades and crippled it. Hades and death no longer has dominion over us because of Jesus. Praise God.

So stop promoting wrath within the Holy Trinity. That is paganism.

 

[civic]

Actually, Jesus went to Hades and crippled it. Hades and death no longer has dominion over us because of Jesus. Praise God.

So stop promoting wrath within the Holy Trinity. That is paganism.

Yep

 

[Complete]

Subject Heading:- 'Isaiah 53 and the origin of PSA'

Hello @civic,

I have just read through this thread, and would like you to please clarify something for me, that you said to @Johann, and which @dizerner challenged, in replies #9/#10. Surely you do not believe that O.T. scriptures, which are not quoted in the N.T., have no validity in regard to doctrinal issues?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Johann]

No I have the volume that’s shows every single OT passage directly quoted in the NT by Beale . It’s not in there and you are basing it on inference.

This is a crucial text for the NT understanding of the ministry and identification of Jesus as YHWH's Suffering Servant. Note the places that it is quoted or alluded to in the NT.

1. Isa. 52:15 ‒ Rom. 15:21 Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

2. Isa. 53:1 ‒ Rom. 10:16; John 12:38

3. Isa. 53:3 ‒ Luke 18:31-33 (allusion); Mark 10:33-34 (allusion); John 1:10-11 (allusion)

4. Isa. 53:4 ‒ Matt. 8:17; 1 Pet. 2:24 (allusion)

Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

it might: Mat_1:22, Mat_2:15, Mat_2:23
Himself: Isa_53:4; 1Pe_2:24

5. Isa. 53:5 ‒ Rom. 4:25 (allusion); 1 Cor. 15:3 (allusion); Heb. 9:28 (allusion); 1 Pet. 2:24-25 (allusion)

Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Who was: Rom_3:25, Rom_5:6-8, Rom_8:3, Rom_8:32; Isa_53:5-6, Isa_53:10-12; Dan_9:24, Dan_9:26; Zec_13:7; Mat_20:28; 1Co_15:3-4; 2Co_5:21; Gal_1:4, Gal_3:13; Eph_5:2; Tit_2:14; Heb_9:28; 1Pe_1:18-19, 1Pe_2:24, 1Pe_3:18; 1Jn_2:2, 1Jn_4:9-10; Rev_1:5, Rev_5:9, Rev_7:14
and was raised: Rom_8:33-34; 1Co_15:17; Heb_4:14-16, Heb_10:12-14; 1Pe_1:21


6. Isa. 53:6 ‒ 1 Pet 2:25 (allusion)

7. Isa. 53:78 ‒ Matt. 26:63 (allusion); Matt. 27:12-14 (allusion); Mark 14:61 (allusion); Mark 15:5 (allusion); Luke 23:9 (allusion); John 19:9 (allusion); Acts 8:32-33 (quote); 1 Pet. 2:23 (allusion)

8. Isa. 53:9 ‒ Matt. 27:57-60 (allusion); 1 Pet. 2:22

9. Isa. 53:10 ‒ John 1:29 (allusion); Mark 10:45 (allusion)

10. Isa. 53:11 ‒ John 10:14-18 (allusion); Rom. 5:18,19 (allusion); 1 Pet. 2:24 (allusion)

11. Isa. 53:12 ‒ Luke 22:37; 2 Cor. 5:21 (allusion); Phil. 2:6,7 (allusion)

I have just shown you NT allusions/quotations from Isaiah 53-from verse 4 AND 5-you don't have a leg to stand on edited.
This is post 1 today-since you force me to post only 2 posts per day.

Johann.

 

[Johann]

Subject Heading:- 'Isaiah 53 and the origin of PSA'

Hello @civic,

I have just read through this thread, and would like you to please clarify something for me, that you said to @Johann, and which @dizerner challenged, in replies #9/#10. Surely you do not believe that O.T. scriptures, which are not quoted in the N.T., have no validity in regard to doctrinal issues?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Not being facetious-the moment I challenge is the moment rules are enforced.
Johann.

 

[civic]

This is a crucial text for the NT understanding of the ministry and identification of Jesus as YHWH's Suffering Servant. Note the places that it is quoted or alluded to in the NT.

1. Isa. 52:15 ‒ Rom. 15:21 Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

2. Isa. 53:1 ‒ Rom. 10:16; John 12:38

3. Isa. 53:3 ‒ Luke 18:31-33 (allusion); Mark 10:33-34 (allusion); John 1:10-11 (allusion)

4. Isa. 53:4 ‒ Matt. 8:17; 1 Pet. 2:24 (allusion)

Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

it might: Mat_1:22, Mat_2:15, Mat_2:23
Himself: Isa_53:4; 1Pe_2:24

5. Isa. 53:5 ‒ Rom. 4:25 (allusion); 1 Cor. 15:3 (allusion); Heb. 9:28 (allusion); 1 Pet. 2:24-25 (allusion)

Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Who was: Rom_3:25, Rom_5:6-8, Rom_8:3, Rom_8:32; Isa_53:5-6, Isa_53:10-12; Dan_9:24, Dan_9:26; Zec_13:7; Mat_20:28; 1Co_15:3-4; 2Co_5:21; Gal_1:4, Gal_3:13; Eph_5:2; Tit_2:14; Heb_9:28; 1Pe_1:18-19, 1Pe_2:24, 1Pe_3:18; 1Jn_2:2, 1Jn_4:9-10; Rev_1:5, Rev_5:9, Rev_7:14
and was raised: Rom_8:33-34; 1Co_15:17; Heb_4:14-16, Heb_10:12-14; 1Pe_1:21


6. Isa. 53:6 ‒ 1 Pet 2:25 (allusion)

7. Isa. 53:78 ‒ Matt. 26:63 (allusion); Matt. 27:12-14 (allusion); Mark 14:61 (allusion); Mark 15:5 (allusion); Luke 23:9 (allusion); John 19:9 (allusion); Acts 8:32-33 (quote); 1 Pet. 2:23 (allusion)

8. Isa. 53:9 ‒ Matt. 27:57-60 (allusion); 1 Pet. 2:22

9. Isa. 53:10 ‒ John 1:29 (allusion); Mark 10:45 (allusion)

10. Isa. 53:11 ‒ John 10:14-18 (allusion); Rom. 5:18,19 (allusion); 1 Pet. 2:24 (allusion)

11. Isa. 53:12 ‒ Luke 22:37; 2 Cor. 5:21 (allusion); Phil. 2:6,7 (allusion)

I have just shown you NT allusions/quotations from Isaiah 53-from verse 4 AND 5-you don't have a leg to stand on edited.
This is post 1 today-since you force me to post only 2 posts per day.

Johann.

You can post a 1000 times a day just follow the rules.

 

[civic]

Not being facetious-the moment I challenge is the moment rules are enforced.
Johann.

I challenge posters here every day and they challenge me. That’s the nature of apologetics and debating one’s beliefs. So let’s all follow them and not discuss them. Let’s defend our positions.

 

[civic]

This is a crucial text for the NT understanding of the ministry and identification of Jesus as YHWH's Suffering Servant. Note the places that it is quoted or alluded to in the NT.

1. Isa. 52:15 ‒ Rom. 15:21 Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

2. Isa. 53:1 ‒ Rom. 10:16; John 12:38

3. Isa. 53:3 ‒ Luke 18:31-33 (allusion); Mark 10:33-34 (allusion); John 1:10-11 (allusion)

4. Isa. 53:4 ‒ Matt. 8:17; 1 Pet. 2:24 (allusion)

Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

it might: Mat_1:22, Mat_2:15, Mat_2:23
Himself: Isa_53:4; 1Pe_2:24

5. Isa. 53:5 ‒ Rom. 4:25 (allusion); 1 Cor. 15:3 (allusion); Heb. 9:28 (allusion); 1 Pet. 2:24-25 (allusion)

Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Who was: Rom_3:25, Rom_5:6-8, Rom_8:3, Rom_8:32; Isa_53:5-6, Isa_53:10-12; Dan_9:24, Dan_9:26; Zec_13:7; Mat_20:28; 1Co_15:3-4; 2Co_5:21; Gal_1:4, Gal_3:13; Eph_5:2; Tit_2:14; Heb_9:28; 1Pe_1:18-19, 1Pe_2:24, 1Pe_3:18; 1Jn_2:2, 1Jn_4:9-10; Rev_1:5, Rev_5:9, Rev_7:14
and was raised: Rom_8:33-34; 1Co_15:17; Heb_4:14-16, Heb_10:12-14; 1Pe_1:21


6. Isa. 53:6 ‒ 1 Pet 2:25 (allusion)

7. Isa. 53:78 ‒ Matt. 26:63 (allusion); Matt. 27:12-14 (allusion); Mark 14:61 (allusion); Mark 15:5 (allusion); Luke 23:9 (allusion); John 19:9 (allusion); Acts 8:32-33 (quote); 1 Pet. 2:23 (allusion)

8. Isa. 53:9 ‒ Matt. 27:57-60 (allusion); 1 Pet. 2:22

9. Isa. 53:10 ‒ John 1:29 (allusion); Mark 10:45 (allusion)

10. Isa. 53:11 ‒ John 10:14-18 (allusion); Rom. 5:18,19 (allusion); 1 Pet. 2:24 (allusion)

11. Isa. 53:12 ‒ Luke 22:37; 2 Cor. 5:21 (allusion); Phil. 2:6,7 (allusion)

I have just shown you NT allusions/quotations from Isaiah 53-from verse 4 AND 5-you don't have a leg to stand on edited.
This is post 1 today-since you force me to post only 2 posts per day.

Johann.

Direct Quotes below

Matthew 8:17 Carried our diseases (Isaiah 53:4)

Mark 15:28 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)

Luke 22:37 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)

John 12:38 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)

Acts 8:32 A lamb to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7)

Romans 10:16 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)

1Peter 2:22 He committed no sin (Isaiah 53:9)

1Peter 2:24 By his stripes you were healed (Isaiah 53:5)

Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.

In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.

hope this helps !!!