Anja
Member
Luckily we're only having a discussion on a controversial topic. No harm no foul. Thanks for the brake check.
Isaiah 53 the origin of PSA
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
It’s a proclamation He is the promised Messiah
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Of all the scriptures to quote, that has to be an odd one to use for that.
"Hey, everybody. God has forsaken me. This PROVES that I'm the Messiah!"
civic
Well-known member
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I'm fully aware of the context. But Jesus did not proclaim the whole context. Did He assume everyone knew the context?
More important, the words are still "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Is this a dishonest cry, or did he feel that God had forsaken him? Is it possible for Jesus to lie for the sake of quoting scripture? Or did God really forsake him (or at least did Jesus believe God had forsaken him), at least for that moment?
civic
Well-known member
It’s Him proclaiming the events in the psalm have happened before their own eyes.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
You didn't answer my question, but I don't expect one from you.
civic
Well-known member
It’s been answered several times. I’ve written a thesis paper explaining what it means and what it cannot mean.
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Jesus learned as a man. Jesus had body odor. Jesus was sick. Jesus had to clean himself when he got dirty. The idea any of this separated Him from the Father is ridiculous. The suffering of Christ does not establish a forsaking. Jesus died. He was experiencing human death from the living. Giving up His body.
None of this creates a separation of Divinity.
Claiming Christ died a spiritual death relative to the damnation of sinners is creating a abandonment in Divinity. Which is preposterous.
Believe Jesus....
Jhn 16:32 Behold, the hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me.
Jesus settled it and to claim the Father abandoned the Son is to make Jesus out to be a liar.
You can tell who really cares what Jesus said and who doesn't
civic
Well-known member
For many a doctrine that was invented by man ( PSA ) is more important than Scripture, God and the truth. Dogma can make one blind. I know as I was once blind and now I see. PSA and tulip were blinding doctrines.
And BTW they are 2 sides of the same coin- they were formulated to fit together. PSA only works with tulip. But here is the kicker the non C's who believe PSA will deny it all day long.
Since Gods wrath was necessary to be poured out on Christ and there is still Gods wrath to come that falls upon all of the nonelect reprobates , Christs atonement was only for the elect whom Christ endured Gods wrath for on the cross- the limited atonement for the elect.. All others who are the non elect will suffer Gods wrath in the future. This view of the atonement was necessary for reformed theology to fit into their TULIP doctrine and make the atonement work with those other doctrines that were invented by man. Those who support PSA must also support the U/L in tulip. They are 2 sides of the same coin. Justice with the atonement came with the PSA doctrine. It was not taught prior to PSA when the doctrine came into being as we know it now from Hodges in the 1800's with his systematic theology. Just like tulip did not exist until after Calvin died and the doctrine was developed in Dort. PSA is a recent modern day heresy. Those who reject Pre Tribulationalism because its the newest eschatological view must also reject PSA since its the most recent view of the Atonement. See the double standards ?
Isaiah 53 - actually opposes PSA- the calvinist twists this in parenthesis
Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we ( GOD )should look at him,
and no beauty that we ( GOD )should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,(GOD)
a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men(GOD) hide their (HIS ) faces
he was despised( BY GOD ), and we ( GOD ) esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we (GOD )esteemed him stricken,- (PSA teaches God)
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; ( by man )
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; ( not born a sinner- no TD )
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, ( man led Him )
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; ( mans oppression, not God )
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; ( no wrath on Jesus )- the word can mean humble, contrite, oppress
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,( reconciled to God, mans deliverance, redeemed, ransom, substitute, atonement)
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities. ( atonement- no wrath )
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.
civic
Well-known member
The roots/origin of PSA
Anselm of Canterbury proposed a substitutionary atonement model, albeit not a fully developed theory. According to Anselm's Cur Deus Homo, sin is not doing God's will, which then "steals" His honor. As a result, we are in debt to God, and we owe him back the honor we stole by sinning. His honor must be appeased. For Anselm, "because God is infinite, any wound to his honor caused by the sins of Man must also be infinite, and the only way infinite satisfaction for these sins can be granted on behalf of man is by the voluntary death of Jesus, who is both God and Man."
It's important to note that's over 1,000 years after Christ before we see the roots of PSA.
The Reformers, as we know, claimed they were recovering the truth of the Gospel to align their doctrine with the New Testament and the earliest Christians. Believing the Middle Ages had corrupted Christianity, the Reformers looked to redefine many of the doctrines of the Church. Luther goes so far as to say that Christ becomes the greatest and only sinner on earth while on the cross. Luther adopted parts of Anselm's ideas but with more of a dichotomy or conflict between the wrath of God and the love of God.
We see a very real development of penal substitutionary atonement theory in John Calvin. Calvin took Anselm's groundwork and expanded in an even more legalistic way. He applied his understanding of criminal law to the equation - man is a criminal and must be punished by God, who is angered by sin. The Son of God is sent to earth to bear the immense wrath of the God of all for us so that God may then be merciful. Calvin says things like "God, then, must of necessity look upon us in the person of His own Son, or else he is bound to hate us and abhor us," "For since by nature we are unclean, and utterly rejected and cursed by God," and talks about the "hatred between him and us." These concepts are foreign to the East and yet critical to penal substitutionary atonement.
The Early Church had no concept of God imputing the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bearing the punishment we deserve. Christ making payment for our sins, which satisfies God's wrath and righteousness so that He could forgive sinners without compromising his holiness, is a late addition to Christian thought.
One of the most well-known verses in the New Testament to my faith group growing up was Romans 3:23-26. It's part of the "Road to Romans" evangelism track. It's interesting to read it while contemplating penal atonement - nowhere does it say Christ is punished in our place (we'll tackle the word "propitiation" in just a minute). The same is true for the verses cited in favor of penal substitution - nowhere do they say Christ was a substitution, that the Father punished Christ, or that God's wrath had to be sated by Christ.
Because of the fall, our ability to remain in union with God was damaged.
Now I want to be clear here - I have not been discussing atonement in general, but the specific doctrine of penal atonement substitution - the idea that the Father unleashed His wrath on Christ on the cross to satisfy His need for blood for forgiveness. God needed someone his equal in rank to satisfy the breaking of the law for justice to be fulfilled. The Father pours out His wrath on Christ to satisfy the offenses against His Law since Adam. It is this that I find preposterous, not the idea that Christ does atone for us. I have to ask: why would a good, loving God have to take out His wrath on His creation?
Anselm of Canterbury proposed a substitutionary atonement model, albeit not a fully developed theory. According to Anselm's Cur Deus Homo, sin is not doing God's will, which then "steals" His honor. As a result, we are in debt to God, and we owe him back the honor we stole by sinning. His honor must be appeased. For Anselm, "because God is infinite, any wound to his honor caused by the sins of Man must also be infinite, and the only way infinite satisfaction for these sins can be granted on behalf of man is by the voluntary death of Jesus, who is both God and Man."
Punishment is a key concept to Anselm, but why? Anselm is often criticized for deriving his doctrine of salvation from Germanic tribal law. Anselm's idea of satisfaction draws from the idea that atonement for grievances must be made in Germanic clans. Within their framework, one person can stand in for another. So, in his mind, Anselm sees the need for someone to be punished for sin, which makes up his framework of Christ's death. I think it's important to note that in Anselm, there isn't the concept that the Father punished Christ; it wasn't the suffering of the divine wrath, but that God was satisfied by Christ's punishment. The Father doesn't punish Christ, and Christ bears no punishment. So we see in the 11th century a substitutionary atonement but not penal substitutionary atonement.
It's important to note that's over 1,000 years after Christ before we see the roots of PSA.
The Reformers, as we know, claimed they were recovering the truth of the Gospel to align their doctrine with the New Testament and the earliest Christians. Believing the Middle Ages had corrupted Christianity, the Reformers looked to redefine many of the doctrines of the Church. Luther goes so far as to say that Christ becomes the greatest and only sinner on earth while on the cross. Luther adopted parts of Anselm's ideas but with more of a dichotomy or conflict between the wrath of God and the love of God.
We see a very real development of penal substitutionary atonement theory in John Calvin. Calvin took Anselm's groundwork and expanded in an even more legalistic way. He applied his understanding of criminal law to the equation - man is a criminal and must be punished by God, who is angered by sin. The Son of God is sent to earth to bear the immense wrath of the God of all for us so that God may then be merciful. Calvin says things like "God, then, must of necessity look upon us in the person of His own Son, or else he is bound to hate us and abhor us," "For since by nature we are unclean, and utterly rejected and cursed by God," and talks about the "hatred between him and us." These concepts are foreign to the East and yet critical to penal substitutionary atonement.
The Early Church had no concept of God imputing the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bearing the punishment we deserve. Christ making payment for our sins, which satisfies God's wrath and righteousness so that He could forgive sinners without compromising his holiness, is a late addition to Christian thought.
One of the most well-known verses in the New Testament to my faith group growing up was Romans 3:23-26. It's part of the "Road to Romans" evangelism track. It's interesting to read it while contemplating penal atonement - nowhere does it say Christ is punished in our place (we'll tackle the word "propitiation" in just a minute). The same is true for the verses cited in favor of penal substitution - nowhere do they say Christ was a substitution, that the Father punished Christ, or that God's wrath had to be sated by Christ.
Because of the fall, our ability to remain in union with God was damaged.
Now I want to be clear here - I have not been discussing atonement in general, but the specific doctrine of penal atonement substitution - the idea that the Father unleashed His wrath on Christ on the cross to satisfy His need for blood for forgiveness. God needed someone his equal in rank to satisfy the breaking of the law for justice to be fulfilled. The Father pours out His wrath on Christ to satisfy the offenses against His Law since Adam. It is this that I find preposterous, not the idea that Christ does atone for us. I have to ask: why would a good, loving God have to take out His wrath on His creation?
civic
Well-known member
Serious Issues with PSA
Biblical Atonement
Old Testament sacrifices don't align with a penal substitution - the animals that were sacrificed were offered as an atonement, not to become a substitute and take punishment, but became sacred and were eaten. Let's look at the Passover lamb and Christ - we see a correlation throughout the New Testament of Christ to the Passover lamb of Exodus 12 (John 1:29, 1 Peter 1:19, Revelation 5, to name just a few). The Passover lamb wasn't a sacrifice of substitution for sin, but instead, it identified those in the homes with the blood marking the doorposts were part of the Chosen People. If the lamb had "become sin," it would have been unclean; the Israelites assuredly would not have eaten the lamb as they were instructed to do in Exodus 12:6. Instead, as Theodoret of Cyrus says of 2 Corinthians 5:21, when Christ became sin, “Christ was called what we are in order to call us to be what he is,” harkening to St. Athanasus’ incarnational theology from On the Incarnation.
The Early Church saw Christ as the Passover lamb, as we see in John 1:29, 1 Corinthians 5:7, Revelation 13:8, and the Book of Hebrews makes extensive references to Christ's sacrifice when speaking of His priesthood. Just as the Passover lamb becomes a meal, so does the crucified Christ in the Eucharist. The Passover lamb is sacrificed, and its blood marks the doorposts of Israel as, Fr. Stephen Freeman points out:
It's not just the Passover lamb that doesn't align with penal substitutionary atonement in the Old Testament, but the sin offerings as well. The sin offerings are implemented in Leviticus; the animals are sacrificed to atone for sin, not to die so that the person offering could live. The animal didn't have sin placed on it or become sin. The scapegoat, however, would symbolically bear the sins of the people, and it was sent out from the city, not sacrificed. The one-time sins are placed on the animal being offered; it isn't killed (see Leviticus 16:10).
Old Testament
PSA runs counter to the Scriptures. Death isn't a punishment but a consequence of Adam's sin. Genesis 2:17 doesn't say that God will kill Adam when he eats the fruit, that God'll punish him, but that he will die. It's a result of his action rather than a punishment inflicted by God. When humanity sinned, death came into the world. It wasn't God's punishment but a consequence.
To quote from Alexander Renault's book Rediscovering Tulip,
Plus, Jeremiah 31:2-30, Ezekiel 18:20, and Deuteronomy 24:16 tell us that a person is put to death for his own sin and that the wickedness of the wicked is upon himself. That isn't the case in penal substitution.
Looking at the Law, a person who murdered couldn't sacrifice an animal to atone for it. He must pay. It's also important to note that verses like Deuteronomy 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chronicles/4 Kings 25:4, and Ezekiel 18:19-20 make a strong case against the idea of substitutionary punishments.
God's Wrath and Unconditional Love
PSA removes unconditional love from God and God doesn't actually forgive. God can't love us unless He has an outlet for his wrath. Again from Renault, "His "self-giving" love is only made possible by His "self-satisfying" justice." If His love is conditional on his wrath being appeased, God also doesn't forgive us - unlike the parable of the servant forgiven his debt or the prodigal son, God doesn't welcome us back or forgive us, but instead requires someone else to pay the debt, contrary to how Christ explains the love of the Father for us. Plus, the Father is changed - He is angry with us, Christ bares his wrath, and now He loves us like he loves Christ - we aren't forgiven, God is merely appeased!PSA also renders Christ's sacrifice imperfect. God's wrath remains, but only on some. Christ's sacrifice for all of humanity is contingent. God is only appeased for some, not all. This is remedied in Calvinism by the belief that God foreknew his elect and sent Christ to pay for their sins.
The Nature of Salvation & Redemption
We have the question of what exactly is meant by salvation. In the Bible, salvation is so much more than avoiding eternal punishment like liberation from bondage (Exodus 14:30, 15:2, Psalms 106:21), return from exile (Isaiah 45:17), and rescue from danger (Psalms 27:1, 51:12, 65:5, 69:2).Penal substitution belittles salvation to merely a transactional event on the cross, a legal barter made by Jesus for us, not a transformational redemption and largely ignores the resurrection. Sin is still a part of our lives, but we are no longer defined by it, but by grace and love (Romans 6). Instead, we are transformed by Christ's death and resurrection. Sin is still a part of our lives and our world, but we are no longer defined by it, but by grace (Romans 6). We are now agents of God's Kingdom, here and now, not some distant faraway concept (1 Corinthians 13:12).
Division of the Trinity
This becomes problematic in the light of the Trinity when we look at Christ on the cross. The Father pours out his wrath on the Son. The Father has wrath, and for his need for justice, so He must punish. The Son, on the cross, asks for forgiveness, making a conflict in the divine will - punishment versus forgiveness. Taking it to the furthest logical conclusion puts the Son and the Father at odds, creating a divide within the indivisible Trinity. It also calls to question Christ's place in the Godhead. Shouldn't Christ's holiness also be offended? Why would the Father need appeasement and not Christ or the Holy Spirit?And if God the Father is truly punishing Christ, that is also sowing very real division within the Trinity. If the Father inflicts torture on the Son, how can the perfect love and unity of the Trinity survive?
A Personal View
I am an imperfect human. I am an imperfect father. I have imperfect love. Yet I can say without question that I do not need to see my daughter forced to suffer to forgive her. I don't need her to be punished. I don't need anyone else to either. When she makes a poor choice and disobeys me, I don't become wrathful against her and need to see her punished to be willing to forgive her, much less to love her again. If, in my imperfect love, I don't become overwhelmed by wrath and anger, demanding justice, how can I view God, who is beyond love, in that light?What About Isaiah 53?
Isaiah 53 is a paramount prophecy to defenders of penal substitutionary theory, yet it is often taken out of context. A bold claim, I know, but hear me out. Nowhere in Isaiah does it say that the Father is punishing Christ. Actually, verse 4 says that despite the fact he bears our griefs and sorrows, "yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted." Let's reword that - humanity's perception is that He is afflicted by God, not that God has smitten Him. Another key passage is verse 5, which tells us "by His stripes we are healed," not "by His stripes the Father is appeased." Let's look at a literal translation from the Septuagint:"The one our sins bore and on account of us he was grieved. And we considered him to be a misery, and for calamity by God, and for ill-treatment. But he was wounded because of our sins and was made infirm on account of our lawless deeds." One should read Isaiah as a prophecy of Christ's healing work, viewing Christ's work as more encompassing than the narrow focus PSA allocates it to.
So What's the Alternative?
The Greek word translated to "atonement" in the Bible is "hilasterion "(ιλαστηριον). In Romans 3:23-25 we read "…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation (ιλαστηριον) by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness because, in his divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins." The word here is a Greek word, so a literal translation can be tricky. One translation propitiation, which implies an act of appeasing or making God happy to either gain favor or avoid retribution.As Eric Hyde argues, "If one chooses to interpret hilasterion as propitiation (literally: "to make favorable," with the implication of placating or appeasing the deity), then the entire Western notion of substitutionary atonement fits well." But, if one uses the word expiation, which implies a cleansing and removing of sin, this fits less into the penal substitutionary atonement model. This turns the death and resurrection of Christ around - no longer is Christ trying to appease an angry God the Father who has wrath that must be satisfied; instead, Christ is lovingly redeeming and restoring humanity. Let's also consider that hilasterion is used in the Septuagint to mean the "mercy seat" or "thing that atones." It also appears again in Hebrews 9:5 as the mercy seat. Given that context to hilasterion, it makes more sense that Christ's self-sacrifice was an act to remove our sins instead of an act to appease or pacify an angry Father, so He can forgive.
We know that death entered the world through sin and is something that every living thing on earth is subject to. In Christ's Incarnation, He reunited God and man in a way that only the Eternal Logos, being fully God and taking on humanity. Through His death, Christ defeated our enemy, death, and restored the human race (2 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 15:55-57). We share in Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6:8-14; 7:6) and, through Christ's atonement, we've been made clean and freed from sin (Ephesians 1:7; John 1:7), reuniting us to God and making us partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).
Because of sins, we were held captive; the righteous dead were filing into hades. Christ came to set them free. Jesus had to go into the realm of death - that meant becoming a human, entering the world through a woman, living an earthly life, and then allowing himself to be killed. We see him on the cross, not like he's writhing in agony, but looking more like a hero. He maintains a heroic status in Orthodoxy; we look upon him as our Redeemer, Savior, Deliverer, who, with His boldness, power, and compassion, suffered, and died, and went into hades in order to set us free. The image of the resurrection looks different than European art. In our iconography, Christ is standing on the broken gates of hell, lifting Adam and Eve out of hades.
Hebrews 2:14-15 tells us "that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the Devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage. "
Christ's work is redemptive. Christ's sacrifice was restorative. Christ brings God to man, as only one who is God and man can, bridging the gap, conquering death, and restoring us to life. This is the good news in the Scriptures. This is what has been taught by the Church since Pentecost.https://misfitstheology.com/penal-substitutionary-atonement-theory-a-sad-substitute/
hope this helps !!!
The LXX is very clear that there is no wrath from the Father to the Son in Isaiah 53 or anywhere else in the entire OT. There's none of that in the entire NT either. It is perposterous to even think that there was ever any wrath between the Father and the Son. Even Muslims and Atheists see the lunacy of that idea for crying out loud!Serious Issues with PSA
Biblical Atonement
Old Testament sacrifices don't align with a penal substitution - the animals that were sacrificed were offered as an atonement, not to become a substitute and take punishment, but became sacred and were eaten. Let's look at the Passover lamb and Christ - we see a correlation throughout the New Testament of Christ to the Passover lamb of Exodus 12 (John 1:29, 1 Peter 1:19, Revelation 5, to name just a few). The Passover lamb wasn't a sacrifice of substitution for sin, but instead, it identified those in the homes with the blood marking the doorposts were part of the Chosen People. If the lamb had "become sin," it would have been unclean; the Israelites assuredly would not have eaten the lamb as they were instructed to do in Exodus 12:6. Instead, as Theodoret of Cyrus says of 2 Corinthians 5:21, when Christ became sin, “Christ was called what we are in order to call us to be what he is,” harkening to St. Athanasus’ incarnational theology from On the Incarnation.
The Early Church saw Christ as the Passover lamb, as we see in John 1:29, 1 Corinthians 5:7, Revelation 13:8, and the Book of Hebrews makes extensive references to Christ's sacrifice when speaking of His priesthood. Just as the Passover lamb becomes a meal, so does the crucified Christ in the Eucharist. The Passover lamb is sacrificed, and its blood marks the doorposts of Israel as, Fr. Stephen Freeman points out:
It's not just the Passover lamb that doesn't align with penal substitutionary atonement in the Old Testament, but the sin offerings as well. The sin offerings are implemented in Leviticus; the animals are sacrificed to atone for sin, not to die so that the person offering could live. The animal didn't have sin placed on it or become sin. The scapegoat, however, would symbolically bear the sins of the people, and it was sent out from the city, not sacrificed. The one-time sins are placed on the animal being offered; it isn't killed (see Leviticus 16:10).
Old Testament
PSA runs counter to the Scriptures. Death isn't a punishment but a consequence of Adam's sin. Genesis 2:17 doesn't say that God will kill Adam when he eats the fruit, that God'll punish him, but that he will die. It's a result of his action rather than a punishment inflicted by God. When humanity sinned, death came into the world. It wasn't God's punishment but a consequence.
To quote from Alexander Renault's book Rediscovering Tulip,
Plus, Jeremiah 31:2-30, Ezekiel 18:20, and Deuteronomy 24:16 tell us that a person is put to death for his own sin and that the wickedness of the wicked is upon himself. That isn't the case in penal substitution.
Looking at the Law, a person who murdered couldn't sacrifice an animal to atone for it. He must pay. It's also important to note that verses like Deuteronomy 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chronicles/4 Kings 25:4, and Ezekiel 18:19-20 make a strong case against the idea of substitutionary punishments.
God's Wrath and Unconditional Love
PSA removes unconditional love from God and God doesn't actually forgive. God can't love us unless He has an outlet for his wrath. Again from Renault, "His "self-giving" love is only made possible by His "self-satisfying" justice." If His love is conditional on his wrath being appeased, God also doesn't forgive us - unlike the parable of the servant forgiven his debt or the prodigal son, God doesn't welcome us back or forgive us, but instead requires someone else to pay the debt, contrary to how Christ explains the love of the Father for us. Plus, the Father is changed - He is angry with us, Christ bares his wrath, and now He loves us like he loves Christ - we aren't forgiven, God is merely appeased!
PSA also renders Christ's sacrifice imperfect. God's wrath remains, but only on some. Christ's sacrifice for all of humanity is contingent. God is only appeased for some, not all. This is remedied in Calvinism by the belief that God foreknew his elect and sent Christ to pay for their sins.
The Nature of Salvation & Redemption
We have the question of what exactly is meant by salvation. In the Bible, salvation is so much more than avoiding eternal punishment like liberation from bondage (Exodus 14:30, 15:2, Psalms 106:21), return from exile (Isaiah 45:17), and rescue from danger (Psalms 27:1, 51:12, 65:5, 69:2).
Penal substitution belittles salvation to merely a transactional event on the cross, a legal barter made by Jesus for us, not a transformational redemption and largely ignores the resurrection. Sin is still a part of our lives, but we are no longer defined by it, but by grace and love (Romans 6). Instead, we are transformed by Christ's death and resurrection. Sin is still a part of our lives and our world, but we are no longer defined by it, but by grace (Romans 6). We are now agents of God's Kingdom, here and now, not some distant faraway concept (1 Corinthians 13:12).
Division of the Trinity
This becomes problematic in the light of the Trinity when we look at Christ on the cross. The Father pours out his wrath on the Son. The Father has wrath, and for his need for justice, so He must punish. The Son, on the cross, asks for forgiveness, making a conflict in the divine will - punishment versus forgiveness. Taking it to the furthest logical conclusion puts the Son and the Father at odds, creating a divide within the indivisible Trinity. It also calls to question Christ's place in the Godhead. Shouldn't Christ's holiness also be offended? Why would the Father need appeasement and not Christ or the Holy Spirit?
And if God the Father is truly punishing Christ, that is also sowing very real division within the Trinity. If the Father inflicts torture on the Son, how can the perfect love and unity of the Trinity survive?
A Personal View
I am an imperfect human. I am an imperfect father. I have imperfect love. Yet I can say without question that I do not need to see my daughter forced to suffer to forgive her. I don't need her to be punished. I don't need anyone else to either. When she makes a poor choice and disobeys me, I don't become wrathful against her and need to see her punished to be willing to forgive her, much less to love her again. If, in my imperfect love, I don't become overwhelmed by wrath and anger, demanding justice, how can I view God, who is beyond love, in that light?
What About Isaiah 53?
Isaiah 53 is a paramount prophecy to defenders of penal substitutionary theory, yet it is often taken out of context. A bold claim, I know, but hear me out. Nowhere in Isaiah does it say that the Father is punishing Christ. Actually, verse 4 says that despite the fact he bears our griefs and sorrows, "yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted." Let's reword that - humanity's perception is that He is afflicted by God, not that God has smitten Him. Another key passage is verse 5, which tells us "by His stripes we are healed," not "by His stripes the Father is appeased." Let's look at a literal translation from the Septuagint:
"The one our sins bore and on account of us he was grieved. And we considered him to be a misery, and for calamity by God, and for ill-treatment. But he was wounded because of our sins and was made infirm on account of our lawless deeds." One should read Isaiah as a prophecy of Christ's healing work, viewing Christ's work as more encompassing than the narrow focus PSA allocates it to.
So What's the Alternative?
The Greek word translated to "atonement" in the Bible is "hilasterion "(ιλαστηριον). In Romans 3:23-25 we read "…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation (ιλαστηριον) by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness because, in his divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins." The word here is a Greek word, so a literal translation can be tricky. One translation propitiation, which implies an act of appeasing or making God happy to either gain favor or avoid retribution.
As Eric Hyde argues, "If one chooses to interpret hilasterion as propitiation (literally: "to make favorable," with the implication of placating or appeasing the deity), then the entire Western notion of substitutionary atonement fits well." But, if one uses the word expiation, which implies a cleansing and removing of sin, this fits less into the penal substitutionary atonement model. This turns the death and resurrection of Christ around - no longer is Christ trying to appease an angry God the Father who has wrath that must be satisfied; instead, Christ is lovingly redeeming and restoring humanity. Let's also consider that hilasterion is used in the Septuagint to mean the "mercy seat" or "thing that atones." It also appears again in Hebrews 9:5 as the mercy seat. Given that context to hilasterion, it makes more sense that Christ's self-sacrifice was an act to remove our sins instead of an act to appease or pacify an angry Father, so He can forgive.
We know that death entered the world through sin and is something that every living thing on earth is subject to. In Christ's Incarnation, He reunited God and man in a way that only the Eternal Logos, being fully God and taking on humanity. Through His death, Christ defeated our enemy, death, and restored the human race (2 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 15:55-57). We share in Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6:8-14; 7:6) and, through Christ's atonement, we've been made clean and freed from sin (Ephesians 1:7; John 1:7), reuniting us to God and making us partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).
Because of sins, we were held captive; the righteous dead were filing into hades. Christ came to set them free. Jesus had to go into the realm of death - that meant becoming a human, entering the world through a woman, living an earthly life, and then allowing himself to be killed. We see him on the cross, not like he's writhing in agony, but looking more like a hero. He maintains a heroic status in Orthodoxy; we look upon him as our Redeemer, Savior, Deliverer, who, with His boldness, power, and compassion, suffered, and died, and went into hades in order to set us free. The image of the resurrection looks different than European art. In our iconography, Christ is standing on the broken gates of hell, lifting Adam and Eve out of hades.
Hebrews 2:14-15 tells us "that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the Devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage. "
Christ's work is redemptive. Christ's sacrifice was restorative. Christ brings God to man, as only one who is God and man can, bridging the gap, conquering death, and restoring us to life. This is the good news in the Scriptures. This is what has been taught by the Church since Pentecost.https://misfitstheology.com/penal-substitutionary-atonement-theory-a-sad-substitute/
hope this helps !!!
Diserner
Well-known member
I know I make sure to listen and trust the logic of Muslims and Atheists!
Most trustworthy source ever, for "crying out loud"!
Diserner
Well-known member
Anja
Member
PSA owes it's seeming strength to half truths, false analogies, and defective analyses of the bible. If God the father needs someone to “pay the price” for sin, does the Father ever really forgive anyone? Think about it. If you owe me a hundred dollars and I hold you to it unless someone pays me the owed sum, did I really forgive your debt? It seems not, especially since the very concept of forgiveness is about releasing a our debt — not collecting it from someone else.
Anja
Member
The Romans and The Jewish leaders were the ones that tortured Jesus to death for no good reason, Not God. I understand some people have Trouble dealing with love.
Do me a favor, don't make your post personal. Calling someone Cruel and a Whiner is against the rules.
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civic
Well-known member
Ditto
civic
Well-known member
Equivocating
Then listen to the logic of the LXX, if that's at all possible for you.
