Isaiah 53:10 and the LXX

[praise_yeshua]

Obsessed with God's word.

Goodnight.

J.

Obsessed with commentary. I asked you about your position on the topic of "Divine Preservation". Can you "comment" accurately on your position?

Do you have a articulable position?

 

[Johann]

Obsessed with commentary. I asked you about your position on the topic of "Divine Preservation". Can "comment" accurately on your position?

Do you have a articulable position?

It appears that my passion for God's infallible Word isn't particularly welcomed--perhaps it's just a case of different strokes for different folks.

I genuinely desire to engage with you, but something about this interaction doesn't sit quite right.

Let me clarify my position- we can certainly discuss and even debate Scripture through intellectual means, drawing from secondary sources and scholarly arguments-I'm no stranger to that kind of dialogue. But at the heart of it all, if there is no personal relationship with Christ Jesus, no indwelling of the Holy Spirit, no surrender to the Lord’s imperatives and a life yielded to Him, then it's merely an exchange of intellects-a contest of who knows more.

So what’s the point of all this, really? I came here to offer insight, to assist, to be edified along with others. Yet something feels off-I’m under a kind of scrutiny. Not necessarily from you, but from the tone of the space itself. It seems my intentions or convictions aren’t truly welcomed.

late here.

01.14 AM.

J,

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Greek translation of the Old Testament came about during the period between the Old and New Testament; but it is not the original language of the Old Testament and is itself a translation of the Hebrew. Don’t forget that.

I'm going to deal with some of the false claims "pasted" in this quote. I have no idea what is actually your commentary and what is from someone else. I'm not going to even try to figure it out in your full response.

The Hebrew that survives today IS IN NO WAY exactly like the words that came from Isaiah. In fact, many linguistic critics of Isaiah from the DSS believe the manuscripts comes from two different writers/prophets.

Isaiah lived in the 8th century BCE. The DSS is from no earlier than the 1st century BCE.

That is 7 centuries removed from the source. Much happened in that time.

Much of this is new to you. You haven't lived with the knowledge you're gaining for very long. Don't act as if you've really come to terms with the vast amount of information needs to be addressed.

Isa 40 is where most of these problems arise with those who claim two or three authors wrote Isaiah.

Isa 40:3 is a very important passage that demands the LXX stream is authentic to one author.

Isa 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God.

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Pay attention to Mark....

Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

There is a conflation here that takes place with the surviving "Hebrew" .... update later so I can respond to another of your posts.

 

[civic]

Not so-I was trying to be lighthearted and had NO particular member in mind, trying to break the ice, I do believe we have a misunderstanding here.

J.

You are right there is the thing called different strokes for different folks. And just so you know everyone here is welcomed believer, unbeliever, Jew, gentile, unitarian, trinitarian, modalist and those of other faiths we consider to be unorthodox and outside of our "Christian" faith. I have calvinists that I can have a good and respectful dialogue with and others not so much. The same with those outside of Trinitarian faith- some conversations are very good like you have with @Studyman who is a unitarian and others not so much. But on forums like this and others out there debates are a daily occurrence and some are outright fights and get really ugly with the name calling and bashing. Many of us here came from a forum like that which is why we did not want that here. We try to do our best to make things civil here but we are not perfect by any means. Its not easy to please all of the people all of the time. On a forum thats an impossible task.

 

[civic]

I'm going to deal with some of the false claims "pasted" in this quote. I have no idea what is actually your commentary and what is from someone else. I'm not going to even try to figure it out in your full response.

The Hebrew that survives today IS IN NO WAY exactly like the words that came from Isaiah. In fact, many linguistic critics of Isaiah from the DSS believe the manuscripts comes from two different writers/prophets.

Isaiah lived in the 8th century BCE. The DSS is from no earlier than the 1st century BCE.

That is 7 centuries removed from the source. Much happened in that time.

Much of this is new to you. You haven't lived with the knowledge you're gaining for very long. Don't act as if you've really come to terms with the vast amount of information needs to be addressed.

Isa 40 is where most of these problems arise with those who claim two or three authors wrote Isaiah.

Isa 40:3 is a very important passage that demands the LXX stream is authentic to one author.

Isa 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God.

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Pay attention to Mark....

Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

There is a conflation here that takes place with the surviving "Hebrew" .... update later so I can respond to another of your posts.

This is not an area of study that I have delved into thats for sure. I'm not an OT guy especially when it comes to the original languages of OT in Hebrew and Aramaic. I do know the LXX was popular in the time of Jesus and the Apostles and there are direct quotes from it in the N.T. some 300 plus times.

 

[Johann]

I'm going to deal with some of the false claims "pasted" in this quote. I have no idea what is actually your commentary and what is from someone else. I'm not going to even try to figure it out in your full response.

I have provided the links and just told you it is 01.36 SA time--in the morning.

I do believe I have explained my position with you well enough so there would be no misunderstanding

Apparently not.

J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It appears that my passion for God's infallible Word isn't particularly welcomed--perhaps it's just a case of different strokes for different folks.

I genuinely desire to engage with you, but something about this interaction doesn't sit quite right.

Let me clarify my position- we can certainly discuss and even debate Scripture through intellectual means, drawing from secondary sources and scholarly arguments-I'm no stranger to that kind of dialogue. But at the heart of it all, if there is no personal relationship with Christ Jesus, no indwelling of the Holy Spirit, no surrender to the Lord’s imperatives and a life yielded to Him, then it's merely an exchange of intellects-a contest of who knows more.

So what’s the point of all this, really? I came here to offer insight, to assist, to be edified along with others. Yet something feels off-I’m under a kind of scrutiny. Not necessarily from you, but from the tone of the space itself. It seems my intentions or convictions aren’t truly welcomed.

late here.

01.14 AM.

J,

We all are passionate about our positions. We should be. Sincerity is required in such. Sincerity of belief is a very emotional thing. I'm more than passionate. I get heated at times but it drives me to dig deeper. Anger often is a good motivator for me. I believe it is for others.

I have absolutely nothing at all against you. Nothing. I have very little against anyone. I don't like evil people myself but I don't try to "call God down" on my side of an argument. I try to know every subject to the level of being able to teach or lead others. I don't think I'm the only one trying to do this. I learn from people I disagree with. I've learned from the devil. I've learned from God. I value what I've learned from God much more but I don't discount any sense of information. Learning can be a difficult process. Satan isn't scared of the truth. He knows it well. He seeks to mix doubt with truth.

I know you think (whether you'll say it or not) I am causing doubt among others relative to what you believe is the "Scriptures". This isn't my first interaction with such. I've been been banned from many sites over some of my comments. I wasn't banned because someone could actually establish I was wrong about anything. I was banned because I can defend myself/position. At the very least, I'm not a novice. Other than this, I very seldom try to claim "God is leading me" when I almost always believe He is. It means something to me personally but such is often used to try and "end the argument". I avoid this as much as possible.

So..... again. I have nothing against you and I don't believe any believer should be afraid of the truth. I don't blame God with the mistakes others make in trying to defend who/what they believe God is. Don't be fearful of what you might learn.

Which comes to a point I'd like to make here......

There is a reason God allowed Adam and Eve to face Satan alone. They needed the experience. There are so many things WE need to experience to learn what God has always known....

Think of that wonderful paradox. Such builds TRUST.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart brother.

 

[Complete]

My thanks to both @civic, @praise_yeshua and @Johann for taking the time to present the results of your personal study on this subject.

May the Lord give me understanding.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Complete]

It’s in the Bible just not in the new testament

Was the cross a punishment God inflicted on Jesus? One verse that is used to teach that it was is Isaiah 53:10. Isaiah 53 is about the Suffering Servant, who is understood to be Messiah. This passage, then, is understood by the Church to be about the cross and the atonement. Let’s read it, first, in the New International Version, which is in agreement with most other English versions.

Other versions have it similarly: “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief” (New King James Version). “And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick” (Young’s Literal Translation). “Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief” (English Standard Version).

Was the cross really about God crushing Jesus, bruising him, making him sick? I used to think so, and this was a verse I used to teach that. I taught that Jesus took God’s punishment in our place, that God crushed Jesus, venting his anger on him so he would not have to vent it on us. This is known as the penal substitutionary theory of atonement. In recent years, however, I have had to let that theory go, because what I have seen in Scripture leads me to a different conclusion, a different understanding of the cross.

So what about Isaiah 53:10, then? Are the English versions quoted above the best rendering of Isaiah’s words? They are direct translations of the Hebrew text, at least of the best one that is available today, but do they give us the best sense of what Isaiah prophesied?

The Septuagint renders Isaiah 53:10. I could give you the Greek words themselves, which would be a simple cut and paste, but since many do not read Greek, I will quote the Brenton version, which is a classic English translation of the LXX. Then I will tell you about the Greek verb that is used:

The Greek word for “stroke” is plege and here speaks of a wound that has been inflicted by a blow. The verb for “purge” is katharizo and means to cleanse or purify. It is where we get our English word “catharsis.” The St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint version has Isaiah 53:10 this way: “The Lord wishes to cleanse Him of His wound.”

The important thing to notice here is that God does not crush or bruise the Messiah, or make him sick. God does not inflict any wound on him. Quite the opposite, God is shown as cleansing and healing the wound!

The LXX reading seems to me more like what I find in the New Testament concerning the cross. When I think, for example, of how Peter and Stephen preached the gospel in the book of Acts, the cross was not something God did to Christ but something wicked men did. What God did was to raise Christ from the dead.

Isaiah 53 presents a stunning image of what Christ suffered in the atonement. But I do not think it is a picture of God crushing, bruising or punishing Christ. It is a portrait of God delivering Christ — and us through him. J,Doles
,
hope this helps !!!

'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He hath put Him to grief:
when Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed,
He shall prolong His days,
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper
in His hand.'
(Isa 53:10)

Hello @civic,

I simply see no reason to meddle with the words of Isaiah 53:10. It appears, by what you have told us of your early understanding of the cross of Christ, and the influence this verse had in shaping your understanding, that it was your reception of it, coupled with the influence of your early teaching that led you to believe as you did. The verse itself, within it's context, is not to blame for your misconception. So it was not the verse itself for which a different interpretation needed to be found, but a change in your own perception of it. So this is why I will stick with what is written, as it stands, and praise God accordingly.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Johann]

You are right there is the thing called different strokes for different folks. And just so you know everyone here is welcomed believer, unbeliever, Jew, gentile, unitarian, trinitarian, modalist and those of other faiths we consider to be unorthodox and outside of our "Christian" faith. I have calvinists that I can have a good and respectful dialogue with and others not so much. The same with those outside of Trinitarian faith- some conversations are very good like you have with @Studyman who is a unitarian and others not so much. But on forums like this and others out there debates are a daily occurrence and some are outright fights and get really ugly with the name calling and bashing. Many of us here came from a forum like that which is why we did not want that here. We try to do our best to make things civil here but we are not perfect by any means. Its not easy to please all of the people all of the time. On a forum thats an impossible task.

I’m not here to please everyone all the time (cf. Galatians 1:10 - “For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.”).

I share from the limited understanding I have of the Scriptures, doing my best to speak what I sincerely believe is true (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:9- “For we know in part and we prophesy in part.”).

You're right-we are not perfect (cf. Romans 3:23 - “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”).

Each of us is a work in progress (cf. Philippians 1:6 - “Being confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ.”).

J.

 

[civic]

I’m not here to please everyone all the time (cf. Galatians 1:10 - “For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.”).

I share from the limited understanding I have of the Scriptures, doing my best to speak what I sincerely believe is true (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:9- “For we know in part and we prophesy in part.”).

You're right-we are not perfect (cf. Romans 3:23 - “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”).

Each of us is a work in progress (cf. Philippians 1:6 - “Being confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ.”).

J.

Amen

 

[Aeliana]

Lets try this.

Post in thread 'Trusting God Day by Day'

Wednesday at 6:04 AM

April 30

Encouragement Always Pays

[Remember] this: he who sows sparingly and grudgingly will also reap sparingly and grudgingly, and he who sows generously [that blessings may come to someone] will also reap generously and with blessings.
2 CORINTHIANS 9:6

All of us need encouragement. It is a tool that increases our confidence and inspires us to act with courage, spirit, or strength. That is what we need! We don’t need anyone around to discourage us; instead, we need “encouragers” in our lives.

Because we all encounter difficulty while we are running our race and trying to...

• Aeliana

 

[Johann]

Lets try this.

Post in thread 'Trusting God Day by Day'

Wednesday at 6:04 AM

April 30

Encouragement Always Pays

[Remember] this: he who sows sparingly and grudgingly will also reap sparingly and grudgingly, and he who sows generously [that blessings may come to someone] will also reap generously and with blessings.
2 CORINTHIANS 9:6

All of us need encouragement. It is a tool that increases our confidence and inspires us to act with courage, spirit, or strength. That is what we need! We don’t need anyone around to discourage us; instead, we need “encouragers” in our lives.

Because we all encounter difficulty while we are running our race and trying to...

• Aeliana

Well said @Aeliana.

J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He hath put Him to grief:
when Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed,
He shall prolong His days,
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper
in His hand.'
(Isa 53:10)

Hello @civic,

I simply see no reason to meddle with the words of Isaiah 53:10. It appears, by what you have told us of your early understanding of the cross of Christ, and the influence this verse had in shaping your understanding, that it was your reception of it, coupled with the influence of your early teaching that led you to believe as you did. The verse itself, within it's context, is not to blame for your misconception. So it was not the verse itself for which a different interpretation needed to be found, but a change in your own perception of it.

The verse itself is the issue. Those words come from English men. They did not come from Isaiah. You should realize that there is really no such thing as "Divine Perseveration" of Scriptures. The late doctrine of "Inerrancy" has confused many people. Such beliefs were never held in the early church. They well knew the differences that exists between manuscripts. If you want to really understand this topic, then you're going have to discover much of this on your own. At this very moment, you're so opposed to the idea that what you have in your hands isn't perfectly true that you're not really consider evidence to the contrary. That is really what the late doctrine of Inerrancy was intend to do. To stop people from challenging the doctrines people has long insisted should never be challenged. Every translation and manuscript were written by men. They made choices that we don't have to make. Realize that God has preserved all these variant documents so we might make our own choices. So that we can "seek" Him through the manuscripts themselves. You need to learn manuscripts. Make your own choices. Don't let others make them for you. While the doctrine of inerrancy is good to a certain degree, it is not practical at all in application. It has been used to sell you errors of fact that come to you from the choices of men.

So this is why I will stick with what is written, as it stands, and praise God accordingly.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Praising God for the errors of men isn't very wise. Men "name drop" "God" to end conversations and sell lies.

Jer 23:21 I sent not the prophets, yet they ran: neither spoke I to them, yet they prophesied.
Jer 23:22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and if they had hearkened to my words, then would they have turned my people from their evil practices.
Jer 23:23 I am a God nigh at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off.

Jeremiah 23:23 is what Paul basically quoted in Acts 17:27

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

You will not read commentary on this because it teaches something that Calvinists, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and many more don't want you to know.

That God isn't far from any of us. You don't need a priest. You need THE PRIEST....You don't need another teacher than the Spirit of God. Not that we don't learn from others. We do. We even learn from bad things. Our brains are designed to be a sponge. We take in everything around us and make decisions on what to believe. That is exactly the way it should be.

If I can make you hungry for God, I will have done what I want to accomplish. Become greater than us all. Who am I to rob God of the best of you! You're not my servant. I'm just another voice. My own voice.

Realize that God condemned.... "scribes"...

Mat 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,

I'm going to start a thread on this subject. I want you all to see the complete truth about this. I'll link it here.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is not an area of study that I have delved into thats for sure. I'm not an OT guy especially when it comes to the original languages of OT in Hebrew and Aramaic. I do know the LXX was popular in the time of Jesus and the Apostles and there are direct quotes from it in the N.T. some 300 plus times.

There are actually very few times the authors of the NT quoted from streams of text other then the origins of the LXX. As a collection, it was the "book" that was available to the common man outside of the work of the scribes that were held in close proximity to the Temples in Jerusalem. This is witnessed by the "book of the law" found by Ezra as we read about in Nehemiah/Nehemias. Which was once categorized among the writings of the "12 prophets" in the Greek OT. There is so much here. We could talk about it for years. There really isn't a possibility to escape the very important role the Greek OT played in God's work among humanity. It is what Jesus read aloud Luke 4 concerning Himself. The Greek OT is what was available to very large portions of humanity. God prepared this world for the coming of Messiah through the Greek OT. When the apostles began to spread the Gospel, they didn't have to "invent the printing press" to get the "word out". It was already there among the masses in the Greek OT.

 

[Julie]

Lets try this.

Post in thread 'Trusting God Day by Day'

Wednesday at 6:04 AM

April 30

Encouragement Always Pays

[Remember] this: he who sows sparingly and grudgingly will also reap sparingly and grudgingly, and he who sows generously [that blessings may come to someone] will also reap generously and with blessings.
2 CORINTHIANS 9:6

All of us need encouragement. It is a tool that increases our confidence and inspires us to act with courage, spirit, or strength. That is what we need! We don’t need anyone around to discourage us; instead, we need “encouragers” in our lives.

Because we all encounter difficulty while we are running our race and trying to...

• Aeliana

This works also.

Post in thread 'Managing Your Emotions'

Apr 1, 2025

DAY 58

Speak Well of Others

Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
James 4:11

People who feel insecure often judge and criticize others in order to feel better about themselves. In Matthew 7:1–2, Jesus warns us against judging others: “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to...

• Julie

 

[praise_yeshua]

Link to my thread on inerrancy if anyone wants to participate.....

P

Thread 'Inerrancy vs Veracity'

Wednesday at 9:26 AM

Concepts of Inerrancy can create problems in application to the extant Scriptures. Inerrancy is a rather new "concept" having been "crystalized" in the "Chicago Statement" among evangelicals in 1978.

Some of these "problems" arise from an incomplete or lack of understanding concerning the Biblical Canon of choice. Such is personal preference. We do not elevate "inerrancy" to limit our preferences. The English word Bible means nothing more than a "collection of writings". "Bible" comes from the word "biblion" in Greek and has over time morphed into personal preferences such as "The...

• praise_yeshua
• Replies: 0
• Forum: The Bible

 

[Studyman]

This is not an area of study that I have delved into thats for sure. I'm not an OT guy especially when it comes to the original languages of OT in Hebrew and Aramaic. I do know the LXX was popular in the time of Jesus and the Apostles and there are direct quotes from it in the N.T. some 300 plus times.

It is true that the Gospel of Christ, where the Righteousness of God and the Wrath of God is revealed, is found in the OT, wherein it is written, "The Just shall live by Faith". It was given to Israel in Egypt, but they didn't believe in God's Word. And the OT, which was inspired by God and written "for our sakes no doubt", was also written as examples that we would not lust after disobedience to God, as the rebellious Jews lusted after. And what happened to those who are written about in the OT, were written for examples for us, "for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come".

And the first church of God after the necessary "Change in the Priesthood", flourished studying the OT Scriptures, and "Lived by them" as Jesus instructed. This Body of Christ flourished for years even though Saul and the mainstream religious sects of that time persecuted those who strived to partake of that narrow path.

Given these and other Scriptural facts, I have come to find that without the OT, there is no way to understand what is written in the NT. So, as a result of what is actually written in Scriptures, I am an OT guy, like Jesus and Paul were. Perhaps this is the reason for the differences in our understanding.

 

[civic]

It is true that the Gospel of Christ, where the Righteousness of God and the Wrath of God is revealed, is found in the OT, wherein it is written, "The Just shall live by Faith". It was given to Israel in Egypt, but they didn't believe in God's Word. And the OT, which was inspired by God and written "for our sakes no doubt", was also written as examples that we would not lust after disobedience to God, as the rebellious Jews lusted after. And what happened to those who are written about in the OT, were written for examples for us, "for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come".

And the first church of God after the necessary "Change in the Priesthood", flourished studying the OT Scriptures, and "Lived by them" as Jesus instructed. This Body of Christ flourished for years even though Saul and the mainstream religious sects of that time persecuted those who strived to partake of that narrow path.

Given these and other Scriptural facts, I have come to find that without the OT, there is no way to understand what is written in the NT. So, as a result of what is actually written in Scriptures, I am an OT guy, like Jesus and Paul were. Perhaps this is the reason for the differences in our understanding.

Let me clarify my focus is the NT, the New Covenant. I know the OT very well and all the prophets, kings , leaders etc. I’m very familiar with all the stories.

I’m not a Jew bound to the OT law. I’m a gentile convert to Christ. And I see Christ throughout the entire OT since it’s all about Him and His interaction with men since Adam in the garden.

He is everywhere in the OT yet you do not see Him or believe He was there. So you are correct in that we don’t see anything eye to eye regarding Jesus.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Let me clarify my focus is the NT, the New Covenant. I know the OT very well and all the prophets, kings , leaders etc. I’m very familiar with all the stories.

I’m not a Jew bound to the OT law. I’m a gentile convert to Christ. And I see Christ throughout the entire OT since it’s all about Him and His interaction with men since Adam in the garden.

He is everywhere in the OT yet you do not see Him or believe He was there. So you are correct in that we don’t see anything eye to eye regarding Jesus.

hope this helps !!!

He has an idol of his imaginations.