civic
Well-known member
Amen
Isaiah 53 the origin of PSA
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
You need to take into consideration the contrasting word "yet" in verse 4. There is a contrast being made between the spiritual Divine side (the first half) and the human shallow perception side (the 2nd half).
Isa 53:4 "He bears our sins, and is pained for us: yet we accounted him to be in trouble, and in suffering, and in affliction." (Brenton).
Again, you are disregarding the word "BUT" that in inserted at the start of verse 5. There is a reason for the "BUT" word. It contrasts two sides of the argument: the human shallow perception side and the spiritual Divine side. You, on the other hand, disregard the "BUT" word and mix everything together to make a mess of things.
This is what was seen on the shallow human side:
1) There is no appearance to him, nor glory; and we beheld him, and he does not have appearance nor beauty,
2) his appearance was without honor, and wanting by sons of men.
3) he was dishonored and was not considered.
4) we considered him to be for misery, and for calamity by God, and for ill treatment. The Propitiation heresy is exposed here as a product of shallow human perception.
This is the true spiritual side:
1) This one [our sins bore],
2) he was made infirm on account of our lawless deeds,
3) The discipline for our peace was upon him,
4) by his stripe we were healed,
5) LORD delivered him up for our sins.
civic
Well-known member
It's amazing that we have to expend so much time and energy teaching basic grammar to people consumed by heresy. I estimate that 90% of all heresies would immediately evaporate if people would just learn basic English.Spot on I’m as I’m reminded of this lol. Someone needs a basic grammar lesson
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I believe we can see the Empathy of God in Christ for humanity.
From the MT represented here by the NET.
53:5 He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds, crushed because of our sins; he endured punishment that made us well; because of his wounds we have been healed.
From the Greek OT represented here by the NETS.
Isa 53:5 but He was wounded because of our acts of lawlessness and has been weakened because of our sins; upon him was discipline of our peace ;by his bruise *striping* (I believe striping is a more accurate translation here) we were healed.
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
It is the priestly work of Christ that establishes the everlasting nature of the Atonement.
Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For since he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
From the MT represented here by the NET.
53:5 He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds, crushed because of our sins; he endured punishment that made us well; because of his wounds we have been healed.
From the Greek OT represented here by the NETS.
Isa 53:5 but He was wounded because of our acts of lawlessness and has been weakened because of our sins; upon him was discipline of our peace ;by his bruise *striping* (I believe striping is a more accurate translation here) we were healed.
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
It is the priestly work of Christ that establishes the everlasting nature of the Atonement.
Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For since he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
Christ's entire life on Earth is an Atonement, "the Empathy of God in Christ for humanity" as you called it. From Christ taking on human nature, to his Baptism, to His Cross, to his Resurrection, to his sending of the Holy Spirit, everything Christ did is an Atonement.
Johann
Well-known member
I'm fellow shipping with darkness here.
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Johann
Well-known member
Studied Hebrew grammar more than you.
Do you understand Hebrew more than all the people (Hellenized Alexandrian Jews, Tyndale, etc...) who translated the Hebrew OT into Greek or English? Do you understand the function of conjunctions "but" and "yet"?
Complete
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.
Isa 53:11 He [Hashem] shall see of the travail of his [Moshiach's] nefesh, and shall be satisfied; by knowledge of him [Moshiach] shall Tzadik Avdi ["My Righteous Servant," Moshiach, Zecharyah 3:8, Yirmeyah 23:5; Zecharyah 6:11-12, Ezra 3:8 Yehoshua, Yeshua shmo] justify many (Ro 5:1); for he [Moshiach] shall bear their avon (iniquities).
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his nefesh unto mavet (death); and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he nasah (Lv 16:22, carried) (like the Yom Kippur scapegoat) the sin of many, and made intercession [did the work of a mafgi'a, intercessor] for the transgressors [see Lk 23:34 OJBC].
Isa 53:10 Yet YHWHH3068 Conj-w+N-proper-ms Yah·weh וַיהוָ֞ה it pleasedH2654 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms ḥā·p̄êṣ חָפֵ֤ץ to bruise HimH1792 H8763 V-Piel-Inf+3ms dak·kə·’ōw דַּכְּאוֹ֙ He has put [Him] to grief;H2470 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·ḥĕ·lî הֶֽחֱלִ֔י whenH518 Conj ’im- אִם־ You makeH7760 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3fs tā·śîm תָּשִׂ֤ים an offering for sin,H817 N-ms ’ā·šām אָשָׁם֙ N1
civic
Well-known member
We are talking about English grammar and I’ve studied Greek more than you
Johann
Well-known member
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin,
LXX-
Isa 53:10 And the LORD willed to cleanse him of the beating. If you should offer for a sin offering the thing for your life, he shall see [seed a long-lived].
I don't follow the LXX as my authoritative source.
he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.
Isa 53:11 He [Hashem] shall see of the travail of his [Moshiach's] nefesh, and shall be satisfied; by knowledge of him [Moshiach] shall Tzadik Avdi ["My Righteous Servant," Moshiach, Zecharyah 3:8, Yirmeyah 23:5; Zecharyah 6:11-12, Ezra 3:8 Yehoshua, Yeshua shmo] justify many (Ro 5:1); for he [Moshiach] shall bear their avon (iniquities).
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his nefesh unto mavet (death); and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he nasah (Lv 16:22, carried) (like the Yom Kippur scapegoat) the sin of many, and made intercession [did the work of a mafgi'a, intercessor] for the transgressors [see Lk 23:34 OJBC].
Isa 53:10 Yet YHWHH3068 Conj-w+N-proper-ms Yah·weh וַיהוָ֞ה it pleasedH2654 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms ḥā·p̄êṣ חָפֵ֤ץ to bruise HimH1792 H8763 V-Piel-Inf+3ms dak·kə·’ōw דַּכְּאוֹ֙ He has put [Him] to grief;H2470 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·ḥĕ·lî הֶֽחֱלִ֔י whenH518 Conj ’im- אִם־ You makeH7760 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3fs tā·śîm תָּשִׂ֤ים an offering for sin,H817 N-ms ’ā·šām אָשָׁם֙ N1
https://youtu.be/PQnLCDbjjic?t=69
civic
Well-known member
Was the cross a punishment God inflicted on Jesus? One verse that is used to teach that it was is Isaiah 53:10. Isaiah 53 is about the Suffering Servant, who is understood to be Messiah. This passage, then, is understood by the Church to be about the cross and the atonement. Let’s read it, first, in the New International Version, which is in agreement with most other English versions.
Was the cross really about God crushing Jesus, bruising him, making him sick? I used to think so, and this was a verse I used to teach that. I taught that Jesus took God’s punishment in our place, that God crushed Jesus, venting his anger on him so he would not have to vent it on us. This is known as thepenal substitutionary theory of atonement. In recent years, however, I have had to let that theory go, because what I have seen in Scripture leads me to a different conclusion, a different understanding of the cross.
So what about Isaiah 53:10, then? Are the English versions quoted above the best rendering of Isaiah’s words? They are direct translations of the Hebrew text, at least of the best one that is available today, but do they give us the best sense of what Isaiah prophesied?
The Septuagint renders Isaiah 53:10. I could give you the Greek words themselves, which would be a simple cut and paste, but since many do not read Greek, I will quote the Brenton version, which is a classic English translation of the LXX. Then I will tell you about the Greek verb that is used:
The important thing to notice here is that God does not crush or bruise the Messiah, or make him sick. God does not inflict any wound on him. Quite the opposite, God is shown as cleansing and healing the wound!
The LXX reading seems to me more like what I find in the New Testament concerning the cross. When I think, for example, of how Peter and Stephen preached the gospel in the book of Acts, the cross was not something God did to Christ but something wicked men did. What God did was to raise Christ from the dead.
Isaiah 53 presents a stunning image of what Christ suffered in the atonement. But I do not think it is a picture of God crushing, bruising or punishing Christ.It is a portrait of God delivering Christ — and us through him. J,Doles
hope this helps !!!
Other versions have it similarly: “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief” (New King James Version). “And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick” (Young’s Literal Translation). “Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief” (English Standard Version).
Was the cross really about God crushing Jesus, bruising him, making him sick? I used to think so, and this was a verse I used to teach that. I taught that Jesus took God’s punishment in our place, that God crushed Jesus, venting his anger on him so he would not have to vent it on us. This is known as thepenal substitutionary theory of atonement. In recent years, however, I have had to let that theory go, because what I have seen in Scripture leads me to a different conclusion, a different understanding of the cross.
So what about Isaiah 53:10, then? Are the English versions quoted above the best rendering of Isaiah’s words? They are direct translations of the Hebrew text, at least of the best one that is available today, but do they give us the best sense of what Isaiah prophesied?
The Septuagint renders Isaiah 53:10. I could give you the Greek words themselves, which would be a simple cut and paste, but since many do not read Greek, I will quote the Brenton version, which is a classic English translation of the LXX. Then I will tell you about the Greek verb that is used:
The Greek word for “stroke” is plege and here speaks of a wound that has been inflicted by a blow. The verb for “purge” is katharizo and means to cleanse or purify. It is where we get our English word “catharsis.” The St. Athanasius Academy Septuagintversion has Isaiah 53:10 this way: “The Lord wishes to cleanse Him of His wound.”
The important thing to notice here is that God does not crush or bruise the Messiah, or make him sick. God does not inflict any wound on him. Quite the opposite, God is shown as cleansing and healing the wound!
The LXX reading seems to me more like what I find in the New Testament concerning the cross. When I think, for example, of how Peter and Stephen preached the gospel in the book of Acts, the cross was not something God did to Christ but something wicked men did. What God did was to raise Christ from the dead.
Isaiah 53 presents a stunning image of what Christ suffered in the atonement. But I do not think it is a picture of God crushing, bruising or punishing Christ.It is a portrait of God delivering Christ — and us through him. J,Doles
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Katharizo
kath-ar-id'-zoVerb
NAS Word Usage - Total: 31
- to make clean, cleanse
- from physical stains and dirt
- utensils, food
- a leper, to cleanse by curing
- to remove by cleansing
- in a moral sense
- to free from defilement of sin and from faults
- to purify from wickedness
- to free from guilt of sin, to purify
- to consecrate by cleansing or purifying
- to consecrate, dedicate
- from physical stains and dirt
- to pronounce clean in a levitical sense
Bill Mounce Greek
Dictionary:
καθαρίζω
Greek transliteration:
katharizō
Simplified transliteration:
katharizo
Principal Parts:
καθαριῶ, ἐκαθάρισα, -, κεκαθάρισμαι, ἐκαθαρίσθην
Numbers
Strong's number:
2511
GK Number:
2751
Statistics
Frequency in New Testament:
31
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
v-2a(1)
Gloss:
to make clean, cleanse, purify
Definition:
to cleanse, render pure, purify, Mt. 23:25; Lk. 11:39; to cleanse from leprosy, Mt. 8:2, 3; 10:8; met. to cleanse from sin, purify by an expiatory offering, make expiation for, Heb. 9:22, 23; 1 Jn. 1:7; to cleanse from sin, free from the influence of error and sin, Acts 15:9; 2 Cor. 7:1; to pronounce ceremonially clean, Acts 10:15; 11:9
Full article below:
καθαρίζω
to cleanse, render pure, purify, Mt. 23:25; Lk. 11:39; to cleanse from leprosy, Mt. 8:2, 3; 10:8; met. to cleanse from sin, purify by an expiatory offering, make expiation for, Heb. 9:22, 23; 1 Jn. 1:7; to cleanse from sin, free from the influence of error and sin, Acts 15:9; 2 Cor. 7:1; to...
Strongs
katharismos: a cleansing
Original Word: καθαρισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: katharismos
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ar-is-mos')
Definition: a cleansing
Usage: cleansing, purifying, purification, literal, ceremonial, or moral; met: expiation.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2512 katharismós (a masculine noun derived from 2511 /katharízō, "to purge") – purification, which results from God removing undesirable admixtures
Complete
Well-known member
'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He hath put Him to grief:
when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed,
He shall prolong His days,
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied:
by His knowledge shall My righteous servant justify many;
for He shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the great,
and He shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because He hath poured out His soul unto death:
and He was numbered with the transgressors;
and He bare the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.'
(Isa 53:10-12)
Hello @Johann,
Yes, it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, and put Him to grief: because of the outcome of such suffering (see verses highlighted above) , born at great cost, in obedience to the Father's will. The joy that would follow, made the suffering worthwhile. He was not suffering for His own sake, but for those who would believe and receive the gift of life through Him. The suffering of death, was what Christ came to fulfil: but the treatment received at the hand of man was not something that God willed.
'For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Wherefore when He cometh into the world,
He saith, Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not,
but a body hast thou prepared Me:
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast had no pleasure.
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me,) to do thy will, O God.'
(Heb 10:4-7)
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Christ
Too bad. By doing so you oppose:
- the Apostles who endorsed the LXX by overwhelmingly quoting from it, and
- the Greek speaking Jewish Diaspora (Berean included) who were elected by God to carry forth the Gospel, with the use of their LXX, when they converted to Christianity.
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civic
Well-known member
So, how do we account for these differences? It may be the case that Paul is paraphrasing the Old Testament. Such does happen from time to time, and we can certainly understand how these changes could happen in a paraphrase. If Paul is paraphrasing, there is really nothing more to be said.
… but what if there is a better explanation? What if there is textual evidence that suggests the source or sources from which Paul got his not-quite-the-same-as-the-MT quotation?
This is where the Greek translations of the Old Testament come in (commonly, and a bit problematically, referred to as “The Septuagint” or “LXX”). The Greek Old Testament, various books of which were translated more-or-less between the 3rd century BC and the 1st century AD, was circulating before and during the 1st century AD. Since, at that time, the common language of the Roman Empire was Greek and since Paul was writing in Greek, it stands to reason that his OT quotes may have often been dependent on a Greek version of an Old Testament text.
So, if we were to look at Isaiah 29:14 in the Old Greek translation (i.e., the earliest form of Greek Isaiah), what would we find? If I were a betting man, I’d say we would find the text from which Paul was pulling.
Aside from the last verb, the text of 1 Cor. 1:19 matches the Greek text of Isaiah 29:14 exactly. No 3rd person pronouns, a noun for “intelligent” rather than a participle, and God (“I”) destroying wisdom. Even though the last verb “hide” doesn’t match in meaning to the NT’s “nullify,” it does match in person and voice, in that God (“I”) is the subject of both verbs, rather than discernment as in the Hebrew, and he is actively hiding or nullifying intelligence, rather than discernment hiding itself as in the Hebrew.
The Old Greek translation of Isaiah 29:14 covers every single difference between the Hebrew OT and the Greek NT but one. This is substantial and compelling evidence. It indicates that Paul is indeed quoting, not paraphrasing, the Old Testament in 1 Cor. 1:19. Confusion arises when one assumes Paul was using the Hebrew Old Testament and does not question whether he had a different source. As the evidence demonstrates, in 1 Cor. 1:19, Paul was pulling from the Old Greek translation of Isaiah for his quotation.
koine-greek.com
hope this helps !!!
… but what if there is a better explanation? What if there is textual evidence that suggests the source or sources from which Paul got his not-quite-the-same-as-the-MT quotation?
This is where the Greek translations of the Old Testament come in (commonly, and a bit problematically, referred to as “The Septuagint” or “LXX”). The Greek Old Testament, various books of which were translated more-or-less between the 3rd century BC and the 1st century AD, was circulating before and during the 1st century AD. Since, at that time, the common language of the Roman Empire was Greek and since Paul was writing in Greek, it stands to reason that his OT quotes may have often been dependent on a Greek version of an Old Testament text.
So, if we were to look at Isaiah 29:14 in the Old Greek translation (i.e., the earliest form of Greek Isaiah), what would we find? If I were a betting man, I’d say we would find the text from which Paul was pulling.
Crazy random happenstance? I think not.
Aside from the last verb, the text of 1 Cor. 1:19 matches the Greek text of Isaiah 29:14 exactly. No 3rd person pronouns, a noun for “intelligent” rather than a participle, and God (“I”) destroying wisdom. Even though the last verb “hide” doesn’t match in meaning to the NT’s “nullify,” it does match in person and voice, in that God (“I”) is the subject of both verbs, rather than discernment as in the Hebrew, and he is actively hiding or nullifying intelligence, rather than discernment hiding itself as in the Hebrew.
The Old Greek translation of Isaiah 29:14 covers every single difference between the Hebrew OT and the Greek NT but one. This is substantial and compelling evidence. It indicates that Paul is indeed quoting, not paraphrasing, the Old Testament in 1 Cor. 1:19. Confusion arises when one assumes Paul was using the Hebrew Old Testament and does not question whether he had a different source. As the evidence demonstrates, in 1 Cor. 1:19, Paul was pulling from the Old Greek translation of Isaiah for his quotation.
Paul the Paraphraser or Paul the Septuagint-Quoter?
(This post was originally written in 2013 and published at my previous blog, Old School Script.) Imagine you are listening to a sermon during which the preacher says in passing, “Here, Paul q…
hope this helps !!!
Excellent explanation!
