Isaiah 53 the origin of PSA

Johann said:
Isa 53:3 But his appearance was without honor, and wanting by sons of men. A man [for calamity being], and knowing how to bear infirmity. For he turned his face; he was dishonored and was not considered. [PENAL]

Isa 53:4 This one [our sins bore], and on account of us he was grieved. And we considered him to be for misery, and for calamity by God, and for ill treatment. [PENAL]

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded because of our sins, and he was made infirm on account of our lawless deeds. The discipline for our peace was upon him; by his stripe we were healed. [PENAL]

Isa 53:6 [all as sheep We were wandered]. A man [in his way was wandered], and the LORD delivered him up for our sins.
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Let's look closely at the verses you highlighted.

Isa 53:3-4 shows how people viewed Jesus' circumstances at face value BUT (notice the "BUT" starting in Isa 53:5) Isa 53:5-6 reveals God's actual designs for Jesus.

Jesus was viewed by people as "dishonored", "not considered", and "for calamity by God" BUT that was not the case with God at all. Instead, the reality of the situation was that Jesus was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. In other words, Jesus is NOT our Propitiation but in reality He is our Expiation.

Will you continue to oppose the LXX?
 
civic said:
No it’s the truth. I have yet to meet a single Calvinist person or theologian who denies PSA. They all affirm it along with tulip. You can’t be one without the other. Try opposing PSA on CARM or any other Calvinist forum and see what happens. :)
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Correct. The Propitiation belief of PSA aligns perfectly with Calvinism' monergism which they will defend at all costs.
 
synergy said:
Let's look closely at the verses you highlighted.

Isa 53:3-4 shows how people viewed Jesus' circumstances at face value BUT (notice the "BUT" starting in Isa 53:5) Isa 53:5-6 reveals God's actual designs for Jesus.

Jesus was viewed by people as "dishonored", "not considered", and "for calamity by God" BUT that was not the case with God at all. Instead, the reality of the situation was that Jesus was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. In other words, Jesus is NOT our Propitiation but in reality He is our Expiation.

Will you continue to oppose the LXX?
Click to expand...
Amen
 
synergy said:
Let's look closely at the verses you highlighted.

Isa 53:3-4 shows how people viewed Jesus' circumstances at face value BUT (notice the "BUT" starting in Isa 53:5) Isa 53:5-6 reveals God's actual designs for Jesus.

Jesus was viewed by people as "dishonored", "not considered", and "for calamity by God" BUT that was not the case with God at all. Instead, the reality of the situation was that Jesus was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. In other words, Jesus is NOT our Propitiation but in reality He is our Expiation.

Will you continue to oppose the LXX?
Click to expand...
Incorrect-you and your friend are Ignoring the role and the purpose of the Father-and it is BOTH propitiation AND expiation no matter how you want to spin and twist the Scriptures-as I have shown on multiple posts.
 
Johann said:
I'm aware of it-and you use it @civic-hence our biases.
By the way-who is @Joe?
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Hello Johann,

Our Lord willingly gave Himself up to death for our sins according to our Father's will, and our Father accepted His offering for our sins. There was no wrath involved but only grace.

Death is the punishment for sin. Jesus our Lord humbled Himself and came into our form on a rescue mission for mankind. To save us from the consequence of our sin, death. He was born a man like us to die as a sacrifice for our sins according to the grace of God, that anyone who would believe in Him would be saved from their sins, death. Because of God's grace, the death of His Son demonstrates the righteousness of God that sin results in death, and His death on our behalf displays the grace of God and His righteousness that He is just to justify since He has given His Son over to death for our sins.

There was no wrath poured out upon our Lord by our Father. Instead, our Father was in Him reconciling the world to Himself; this includes on the cross where and when reconciliation happened.

Our Lord was not punished by our Father. He was punished by men whom our Father purposely gave Him over to explicitly to be the means to cause His death for our sins. This is not an act of a wrathful God angry at mankind who had to vent that wrath on His Son, but a merciful God who worked salvation for us, and glorification for His Son and us who believe; fulfilling the reason why He sent His Son, to destroy the works of Satan. His anger comes when His Son judges the world.

He died because we sinned and sin demands death. He died to obtain us. His willing death on our behalf in accordance to our Father's will is the single act of righteousness that Apostle Paul taught in Romans 5:18-19. We truly are saved by grace, not by expended wrath.

God Bless
 
Johann said:
Incorrect-you and your friend are Ignoring the role and the purpose of the Father-and it is BOTH propitiation AND expiation no matter how you want to spin and twist the Scriptures-as I have shown on multiple posts.
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You have offered no counterargument to the fact that the LXX clearly slays the pagan heresy of Propitiation in Isa 53:3-6. As such, the LXX prevails over any and all pagan concepts.
 
synergy said:
You have offered no counterargument to the fact that the LXX clearly slays the pagan heresy of Propitiation in Isa 53:3-6. As such, the LXX prevails over any and all pagan concepts.
Click to expand...
I have offered many-selective reading in a attempt to twist and spin this beautiful passage and MY understanding of it as pagan, on par with Calvinism or TULIP.
I am tired of YOUR heretical slant on Isaiah 53 as you want to impose upon me what you THINK is correct-this is manipulative-forcing me to hold to your view-if not-I am damned as a "heretic"
Personally, I think this thread should be closed-just my opinion.
 
Joe said:
Hello Johann,

Our Lord willingly gave Himself up to death for our sins according to our Father's will, and our Father accepted His offering for our sins. There was no wrath involved but only grace.

Death is the punishment for sin. Jesus our Lord humbled Himself and came into our form on a rescue mission for mankind. To save us from the consequence of our sin, death. He was born a man like us to die as a sacrifice for our sins according to the grace of God, that anyone who would believe in Him would be saved from their sins, death. Because of God's grace, the death of His Son demonstrates the righteousness of God that sin results in death, and His death on our behalf displays the grace of God and His righteousness that He is just to justify since He has given His Son over to death for our sins.

There was no wrath poured out upon our Lord by our Father. Instead, our Father was in Him reconciling the world to Himself; this includes on the cross where and when reconciliation happened.

Our Lord was not punished by our Father. He was punished by men whom our Father purposely gave Him over to explicitly to be the means to cause His death for our sins. This is not an act of a wrathful God angry at mankind who had to vent that wrath on His Son, but a merciful God who worked salvation for us, and glorification for His Son and us who believe; fulfilling the reason why He sent His Son, to destroy the works of Satan. His anger comes when His Son judges the world.

He died because we sinned and sin demands death. He died to obtain us. His willing death on our behalf in accordance to our Father's will is the single act of righteousness that Apostle Paul taught in Romans 5:18-19. We truly are saved by grace, not by expended wrath.

God Bless
Click to expand...
Sgt. Joe could not have said it better, (y)

Sgt. Joe Friday : All we know are the facts, ma'am.
 
synergy said:
You have offered no counterargument to the fact that the LXX clearly slays the pagan heresy of Propitiation in Isa 53:3-6. As such, the LXX prevails over any and all pagan concepts.
Click to expand...
I read through this thread and I would agree about the relationship with psa and pagans. As a believer in the trinity I have a hard time believing in psa.
 
Johann said:
I have offered many-selective reading in a attempt to twist and spin this beautiful passage and MY understanding of it as pagan, on par with Calvinism or TULIP.
I am tired of YOUR heretical slant on Isaiah 53 as you want to impose upon me what you THINK is correct-this is manipulative-forcing me to hold to your view-if not-I am damned as a "heretic"
Personally, I think this thread should be closed-just my opinion.
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All your grievances against the LXX can be registered at your nearest Church. I'm just a messenger. Your inability to offer any counterargument concerning Isa 53:3-6 speaks volumes.
 
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Johann said:
Not necessary-Isaiah 53 says it all-what saddens me is too much philosophizing-that is "muddying the water"
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Excuses. There is no theology with some form of philosophy. It is simply the righteous desire to organize thoughts rationally and without contradicts to one another. It is reason.

Sure, there are vain philosophies. Just like there are vain doctrines/beliefs.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I seems to me that you're simply repeating yourself and claiming victory. Excuses lack details.
 
synergy said:
Welcome on board to this community, made possible by @civic . We hope you enjoy the forums and we look forward to your insights and comments.
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I appreciate the warm welcome. I have read some good insights in this thread about our Saviors sacrifice for sin. I have plenty to learn and it seems to be a place where I can do just that on Berean forum. In some of the other places I have visited it was unfriendly so I never interacted with them.
 
synergy said:
All your grievances against the LXX can be registered at your nearest Church. I'm just a messenger. Your inability to offer any counterargument concerning Isa 53:3-6 speaks volumes.
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"bore. . .carried" These two verbs are parallel.

bore ‒ BDB 669, KB 724, Qal perfect, used of bearing one's guilt, Gen. 4:13; Lev. 5:1,17; 7:18; Num. 5:31; 14:34; Ezek. 14:10; 44:12, but it is also used of someone or some animal bearing another's guilt, cf. Lev. 10:17; 16:22; Num. 14:33; Ezek. 4:4,5,6 and of the suffering Servant's redemptive ministry in Isa. 53:4

You refuse to accept the above--

carried ‒ BDB 687, KB 741, Qal perfect; this is literally "bear a heavy load," it is used of the Servant in Isa. 53:4 and Isa. 53:11 (Qal imperfect)
Notice the series of verbs in Isa. 53:4-6 of what YHWH did to the Servant for humanity's benefit.

--and you refuse to accept the verbs and the Father's role to the Servant for our benefit.

smitten by God, Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 645, KB 697, Hophal participle

afflicted (by God), Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 776, KB 853, Pual participle

pierced through for our transgressions, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal participle

crushed for our iniquities, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual participle

the chastening for our well being (no verb) upon Him, Isa. 53:5
by His scourging we are healed, Isa. 53:5

This is the textual foundation for the doctrine of the vicarious, substitutionary atonement.

"Smitten of God" It was God's will that Jesus die (cf. Isa. 53:10; John 3:16; Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21). Jesus' trial and death were not accidents or mistakes, but the plan of God (cf. Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20).

53:5 "pierced. . .crushed" As "bore" and "carried" in Isa. 53:4 were parallel, so too, these verbs.

pierced ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal participle usually by a sword in battle, but not here. The same root means "polluted" for mankind's purification and forgiveness.

crushed ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual participle; this verb is used several times in Isaiah
Isa. 57:15 ‒ Niphal participle, "the heart of the contrite"
Isa. 3:15 ‒ Piel imperfect, "crushing My people"
Isa. 19:10; 53:5 ‒ Pual participle, "to be crushed"
Isa. 53:10 ‒ Piel infinitive construct, "to crush"

It denotes one who is humbled. In this context by YHWH Himself for the greater good of all mankind.

53:6 This is the OT counterpart to Rom. 3:9-18,23; 5:12,15,18; 11:32; Gal. 3:22. This shows the terrible development of the Fall of Genesis 3 (cf. Gen. 6:5,11-12; Ps. 14:3; 143:2).

"the iniquity of us all to fall on Him" Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. Everyone is potentially saved by Christ (cf. John 1:29; 3:16-17; 12:47; Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10; Titus 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 7:25; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Only willful unbelief keeps anyone from God.

Some commentators have tried to make a restrictive theological distinction between the "all" [twice] of Isa. 53:6 and "the many" of Isa. 53:11d and 12e. However, the parallelism of Rom. 5:18, "all" and "the many" of Isa. 5:19, clearly shows that they refer to the same group (i.e., fallen humanity made in the image and likeness of YHWH, Gen. 1:26-27).

God desires all humans to be saved ‒ John 4:42, 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; 2 Pet. 3:9).

53:6d
NASB, TEV   "fall on"
NKJV, NRSV, REB, Peshitta   "laid on"
NJB   "to bear on"
NET   "to attack"
JPSOA   "visited upon"
LXX   "gave him over to"
The MT has the verb (BDB 803, KB 910, Hiphil perfect), which can mean

cause to light upon (here)
cause one to entreat (KB 910, Hiphil, #2)
interpose (cf. Isa. 53:12, Qal participle)
attack or assail (NET, p. 1269, #10)

Notice the series of verbs in Isa. 53:4-6 of what YHWH did to the Servant for humanity's benefit.
 
Johann said:
"bore. . .carried" These two verbs are parallel.

bore ‒ BDB 669, KB 724, Qal perfect, used of bearing one's guilt, Gen. 4:13; Lev. 5:1,17; 7:18; Num. 5:31; 14:34; Ezek. 14:10; 44:12, but it is also used of someone or some animal bearing another's guilt, cf. Lev. 10:17; 16:22; Num. 14:33; Ezek. 4:4,5,6 and of the suffering Servant's redemptive ministry in Isa. 53:4

You refuse to accept the above--

carried ‒ BDB 687, KB 741, Qal perfect; this is literally "bear a heavy load," it is used of the Servant in Isa. 53:4 and Isa. 53:11 (Qal imperfect)
Notice the series of verbs in Isa. 53:4-6 of what YHWH did to the Servant for humanity's benefit.

--and you refuse to accept the verbs and the Father's role to the Servant for our benefit.

smitten by God, Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 645, KB 697, Hophal participle

afflicted (by God), Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 776, KB 853, Pual participle

pierced through for our transgressions, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal participle

crushed for our iniquities, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual participle

the chastening for our well being (no verb) upon Him, Isa. 53:5
by His scourging we are healed, Isa. 53:5

This is the textual foundation for the doctrine of the vicarious, substitutionary atonement.

"Smitten of God" It was God's will that Jesus die (cf. Isa. 53:10; John 3:16; Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21). Jesus' trial and death were not accidents or mistakes, but the plan of God (cf. Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20).

53:5 "pierced. . .crushed" As "bore" and "carried" in Isa. 53:4 were parallel, so too, these verbs.

pierced ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal participle usually by a sword in battle, but not here. The same root means "polluted" for mankind's purification and forgiveness.

crushed ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual participle; this verb is used several times in Isaiah
Isa. 57:15 ‒ Niphal participle, "the heart of the contrite"
Isa. 3:15 ‒ Piel imperfect, "crushing My people"
Isa. 19:10; 53:5 ‒ Pual participle, "to be crushed"
Isa. 53:10 ‒ Piel infinitive construct, "to crush"

It denotes one who is humbled. In this context by YHWH Himself for the greater good of all mankind.

53:6 This is the OT counterpart to Rom. 3:9-18,23; 5:12,15,18; 11:32; Gal. 3:22. This shows the terrible development of the Fall of Genesis 3 (cf. Gen. 6:5,11-12; Ps. 14:3; 143:2).

"the iniquity of us all to fall on Him" Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. Everyone is potentially saved by Christ (cf. John 1:29; 3:16-17; 12:47; Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10; Titus 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 7:25; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Only willful unbelief keeps anyone from God.

Some commentators have tried to make a restrictive theological distinction between the "all" [twice] of Isa. 53:6 and "the many" of Isa. 53:11d and 12e. However, the parallelism of Rom. 5:18, "all" and "the many" of Isa. 5:19, clearly shows that they refer to the same group (i.e., fallen humanity made in the image and likeness of YHWH, Gen. 1:26-27).

God desires all humans to be saved ‒ John 4:42, 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; 2 Pet. 3:9).

53:6d
NASB, TEV   "fall on"
NKJV, NRSV, REB, Peshitta   "laid on"
NJB   "to bear on"
NET   "to attack"
JPSOA   "visited upon"
LXX   "gave him over to"
The MT has the verb (BDB 803, KB 910, Hiphil perfect), which can mean

cause to light upon (here)
cause one to entreat (KB 910, Hiphil, #2)
interpose (cf. Isa. 53:12, Qal participle)
attack or assail (NET, p. 1269, #10)

Notice the series of verbs in Isa. 53:4-6 of what YHWH did to the Servant for humanity's benefit.
Click to expand...
'He is despised and rejected of men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
and we hid as it were our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem Him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon Him;
and with His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.'
(Isa 53:3-6).

Hello @Johann,

Like Job, it would seem that the Lord was considered to be stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted, and was therefore despised and looked down upon, and men turned their faces away from Him. Could it be that like Job's friends it could be said of them, 'ye have not spoken of Me the thing that is right.'

God did not strike Him, smite Him or afflict Him. Cruel men did that. It was necessary for Christ to die, and to die in the way that He did, upon a cross, that the prophecies concerning Him should be fulfilled, but the smiting, and the striking, the afflicting, despising and turning away of man, was not of God.

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

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