Isaiah 53 the origin of PSA

[Diserner]

And his name that sat on him was Death

And Hell followed with him.

 

[civic]

Another swing and a miss

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

"but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath"

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"

These people will suffer the wrath of God. What's the difference between us and them? If God appoints unsaved sinners to suffer wrath, then isn't that part of the punishment of sin? So how could Jesus suffer the punishment of sin for us without wrath?

 

[civic]

"but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath"

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"

These people will suffer the wrath of God. What's the difference between us and them? If God appoints unsaved sinners to suffer wrath, then isn't that part of the punishment of sin? So how could Jesus suffer the punishment of sin for us without wrath?

Yes wrath falls only on the wicked.

Was Jesus wicked ?

 

[Diserner]

Yes wrath falls only on the wicked.

Was Jesus wicked ?

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21 NKJ)

Gonna have to go with Jesus on this one, over any stubborn and self-righteous internet posters.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Yes wrath falls only on the wicked.

Was Jesus wicked ?

No, but he suffered the punishment of the wicked in place of the wicked (us).

 

[civic]

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21 NKJ)

Gonna have to go with Jesus on this one, over any stubborn and self-righteous internet posters.

Yep nothing there about wrath and justice .

Next

 

[Johann]

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21 NKJ)

Gonna have to go with Jesus on this one, over any stubborn and self-righteous internet posters.

Think you are spot on-Internet posters.

Do me a favor and give this a listen-or forbear brother.

WHAT IS PENAL SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT?

This is the first episode in a 7 Part Series exploring the Augustinian Doctrine of Penal Substitution, abbreviated as PSA. In this episode, we lay out essential terms and definitions, review the historical development of PSA, consider an alternative Model of Redemption known as Restored Icon and we lay out the 17 unique claims comprising Penal Substitution.

Joining Idol Killer for the entirety of this series is Paul Vendredi, who himself produced a long running podcast detailing PSA over 77 episodes.

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The 17 Claims of the Appeasement School (Atonement School), also called Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

1. Adam as mankind's federal head transmits the guilt of his sin to all mankind. (Anselm)

2. Because of Original Sin mankind is now totally depraved. (Anselm)

3. Even Infants, innocent of personal sin, are guilty of Original Sin. (Anslem)

4. The sin of Adam infinitely offends God because the gravity of the offense depends on the worth of the one offended. (Anselm)

5. All sin is to be understood as a debt we owe God for the crime of having dishonored him. (Anselm)

6. Even Infants owe this debt. (Anslem)

7. In the Old Testament era, God insists that this debt be paid by shedding an innocent animal's blood. (Appeasement school)

8. God could have redeemed man by the simple act of wiling it... (Anselm)

9. ...but God cannot forgive sin without first punishing the sinner. (Anselm)

10. Not only must the redemption mirror the fall, but it must also be as painful as possible since the fall was easy. (Anselm)

11. Only the death of God-man is worthy to serve as a recompense to God for his offended honor. (Anselm)

12. Christ becomes incarnate so his humanity can suffer as a substitute for us. (Anselm)

13. God pours out His wrath on Christ pretending that Christ is we, the ones who actually deserve punishment (Appeasement School)

14. On the cross, Christ becomes literal sin and a literal curse. (Appeasement School)

15. God's eyes are too holy to look upon sin, so the Father turns his back on Christ, abandoning him. (Appeasement School)

16. Christ dies on the cross as an unblemished sacrifice and thereby removes the need for further sacrifice by appeasing God's wrath once and for all. (Appeasement School)

17. Thus Christ's death ransoms us from the wrath of God. (Anselm)

 

[civic]

No, but he suffered the punishment of the wicked in place of the wicked (us).

It’s called substitution, ransom, redemption, forgiveness, covering of sin etc ….

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21 NKJ)

Gonna have to go with Jesus on this one, over any stubborn and self-righteous internet posters.

PSA is as valid as TULIP. 2 sides of the same coin from the exact same source and systematic philosophy. The vain philosophy of men Paul speaks of in Colossians.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21 NKJ)

Gonna have to go with Jesus on this one, over any stubborn and self-righteous internet posters.

You need to stay strong in Jesus Christ brother-a lot of opposition coming our way.
Eastern Orthodoxy is throwing out what you and I hold close to our hearts-the death and resurrection of our Lord-precious kippur/atonement.
The penal aspect
Substitution
-and Atonement.

 

[civic]

The sin issue !

Sin is the transgression of the law- 1 John 3:4. Sin is known thorough/by the law- Romans 7:7. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ- Galatians 3:24-25. Where there is no law there is no transgression of the law- Romans 4:14. Sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

In Colossians 2:13-15 we read the following: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Ephesians 2:14-15: For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

So, we see from the above scriptures it’s not sin per se that keeps the sinner from God it is unbelief. Faith is the issue. In Romans 5:1-2 we read the following: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God

Its unbelief that keeps one from salvation and places them under condemnation. This is taught throughout the N.T. gospels and epistles. Here we see what Jesus and Paul declared below.

John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them

Romans 11:20: Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.

Hebrews 3:19: So, we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Cf Heb 4:6- unbelief

Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11; 17-18).

Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28)

The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father receiving His anger, wrath, vengeance or retribution.

Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son. They remained in perfect unity, harmony, oneness of purpose, fellowship while making atonement for sin a reality and the forgiveness of that sin through His death, burial and resurrection from the dead.

hope this helps !!!

Gonna have to go with Jesus and the Apostles on this one, over any stubborn and self-righteous internet posters.

 

[civic]

The N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement.

There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John.

Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11; 17-18). Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28)

The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father. Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son. Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins as He declared was a ransom.

And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).

It is by faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)

hope this helps !!!

As one poster said on this page :

“Gonna have to go with Jesus on this one, over any stubborn and self-righteous internet posters.”

Hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

The doctrine of the Trinity ( Tri-Unity ) alone negates PSA. You have a dysfunctional god wrathful against himself, angry at himself appeasing himself with himself- a kind of schizoid personality disorder at work.

The wisdom of man in the dark ages is foolishness to God where the heretical doctrine originated. I will stick with Jesus teaching on the Atonement since He alone is the One who died for my sins, God in the flesh.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15

4- Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up again. John 2:19

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- substitution

8-Jesus tells His disciples the cup of suffering that awaited Him and that they too would also drink of this cup- Matthew 20

9-This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

10- Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing- Luke 23:34


hope this helps !!!

Gonna have to go with Jesus on this one, over any stubborn and self-righteous internet posters.

How does the saying go ?

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander .

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

You need to stay strong in Jesus Christ brother-a lot of opposition coming our way.
Eastern Orthodoxy is throwing out what you and I hold close to our hearts-the death and resurrection of our Lord-precious kippur/atonement.
The penal aspect
Substitution
-and Atonement.

Yes PSA is anti trinitarian and should be opposed since it’s found nowhere in the teaching of Jesus. He said it was love from Him and the Father, never once did He say it was wrath or justice.

As God He of all people should know why He died and for what reason.

And as you guys like to say and affirm

“ Gonna have to go with Jesus on this one, over any stubborn and self-righteous internet posters. “

Hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

You need to stay strong in Jesus Christ brother-a lot of opposition coming our way.
Eastern Orthodoxy is throwing out what you and I hold close to our hearts-the death and resurrection of our Lord-precious kippur/atonement.
The penal aspect
Substitution
-and Atonement.

A lot of Biblical opposition is coming in the way of those who espouse forensic and legalistic belief systems.

A Biblical view of Atonement views Christ's entire life on Earth as an Atonement. Everything Christ did from his Incarnation, to his Baptism, to the Cross, to his Resurrection, to his sending of the Holy Spirit, to everything he did is an Atonement. In what way is there an Atonement if Jesus did not take on human nature? In what way is there an atonement if Jesus did not allow for Pentecost?

And I haven't even mentioned the sadistic "satisfaction" idea of PSA that cannot hold and blows up when you consider the entire scope of the Atonement of Christ. Our God is a loving God, not a sadistic one.

 

[Johann]

Yes PSA is anti trinitarian and should be opposed since it’s found nowhere in the teaching of Jesus. He said it was love from Him and the Father, never once did He say it was wrath or justice.

As God He of all people should know why He died and for what reason.

And as you guys like to say and affirm

“ Gonna have to go with Jesus on this one, over any stubborn and self-righteous internet posters. “

Hope this helps !!!

Entering the labors of others. You can leave me out of this @civic since you are easily offended and nothing is new under the sun for you.
Don't play the victim-you don't know it all and so do I-my quest is a thorough search after truth.

 

[civic]

Entering the labors of others. You can leave me out of this @civic since you are easily offended and nothing is new under the sun for you.
Don't play the victim-you don't know it all and so do I-my quest is a thorough search after truth.

I just challenge the unbiblical teachings of PSA. I search scripture for truth not the teachings and wisdom that comes from man. I’ll go with Jesus teaching on the atonement not what internet posters think

 

[Diserner]

In what way is there an Atonement if Jesus did not take on human nature? In what way is there an atonement if Jesus did not allow for Pentecost?

In what way is there an atonement if Jesus does not suffer the punishment of sin?

That's what atonement even MEANS, not just skipping or replacing justice.

And I haven't even mentioned the sadistic "satisfaction" idea of PSA that cannot hold and blows up when you consider the entire scope of the Atonement of Christ. Our God is a loving God, not a sadistic one.

Do you believe in eternal conscious torment?

If you do—and I asked you to explain why that was not "sadistic"—your own arguments would explain why the atonement is not "sadistic."

 

[Diserner]

“ Gonna have to go with Jesus on this one, over any stubborn and self-righteous internet posters. “

Yeah, all we have is one lousy little verse (according to you, anyway, lol).

Which shows you admit that EVEN YOU think that verse supports it.

And thus you HAVE to change it.