Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?

[praise_yeshua]

For the sake of argument only, assuming that's how it works, you're still stuck explaining the difference between the person who chooses right and the person who chooses wrong. What advantage did the person choosing right have, and where did he get it? If you say "none" then you might as well just say it's random. The unsaved guy had a bad roll of the dice.

The Gospel enlightens.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Depends on how "rabid" the particular variety of "Calvinism" is. I encountered some hyper-Calvinists some years back that didn't "Evangelize" and just "Collected sheep". Since their version of "Elect" meant that they were already "saved", and just had to come into fellowship with the Visible church. MOre commonly, Calvies (and other evangelists) serve to present the Gospel, and assist the convert in surrendering to the Spirit, repenting, and calling on God in Faith. "Calvinism" isn't a "Monolith", and has many varieties like any other denominational system. Of course it's the Holy SPirit, who privides the "Persuasion", and the "hearing of FAITH" that gets the job done.

They are preaching a false gospel. They preach wait when man is hearing the very voice of God through the true Gospel.

True Gospel enables. False gospel damns.

 

[Frank Russell]

Because if one had an advantage over the other, and God gave him that advantage, that's called election. If his advantage came from within himself, he has reason to boast. But boasting is excluded, so only the former can be true.

It relates to the parable of the sower, some are seed planted by the enemy and others seed planted by God.

If given the choice, they make the right one because they are His.

whether there is a choice or not is irrelevant to the question, the result is the same.

 

[TomL]

Because if one had an advantage over the other, and God gave him that advantage, that's called election. If his advantage came from within himself, he has reason to boast. But boasting is excluded, so only the former can be true.

Sorry but admitting you are a sinner and unable to save yourself hardly seems a boastful manner

And only one who does not understand biblical faith could imagine such

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, but if God just acts on his own, there is no need for the imperative/command. God, according to you, regenerates us, which in turn will irresistibly cause us to believe. There is no need to command one to do anything, for God doesn’t need our willful participation; he causes everything to happen and cannot be thwarted.

Passive voice means I am being acted upon by another party; it doesn’t mean that I have no participation in the process. It only means that I submit to being acted on, which explains the need and purpose of the imperative.


Doug

What is the imperative passive

 

[TibiasDad]

Because if one had an advantage over the other, and God gave him that advantage, that's called election. If his advantage came from within himself, he has reason to boast. But boasting is excluded, so only the former can be true.

There is no advantage factor. Just like the information here on the forum, there is information about Calvinism and Arminianism and we have the choice to believe the argument that we think the most persuasive. You will either believe an argument or you won’t. The difference is merely your own choice or understanding.


Doug

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

There is no advantage factor. Just like the information here on the forum, there is information about Calvinism and Arminianism and we have the choice to believe the argument that we think the most persuasive. You will either believe an argument or you won’t. The difference is merely your own choice or understanding.


Doug

If believing in Arminianism or Calvinism does not make a salvific difference, then there is no issue of advantage. Believing unto eternal live or eternal damnation makes the advantage significant.

 

[TibiasDad]

What is the imperative passive

I have explained both aspects sufficiently. It is in its essence a command to submit to being acted upon by another.

Doug

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

How did some end up honest with a good heart that they would be the good soil? What does anyone have that was not given to them by God?

 

[TibiasDad]

If believing in Arminianism or Calvinism does not make a salvific difference, then there is no issue of advantage. Believing unto eternal live or eternal damnation makes the advantage significant.

There is no advantage, only your personal reasons for believing or not believing. I cannot tell you why you believe or don’t believe, I can only tell you why I believe. Thus, the question of why one does or doesn’t is unanswerable and therefore irrelevant.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

How did some end up honest with a good heart that they would be the good soil? What does anyone have that was not given to them by God?

No one reason for any of the “soil” types. I think we are all at various points of soil at different stages of our lives.

Some are born into better circumstances than others, being exposed to the gospel early can be surmised as an advantage, but it can also have a negative effect.

You can be born into an atheistic environment, which made be a disadvantage to believing, but not necessarily.

The gospel seed, according to Jesus, is hindered or even thwarted by the nature of the soil, the condition of the heart at the time of hearing the gospel, and these conditions are described as being temporal experiences, “worries, riches, pleasures of life, persecution, etc. Sometimes the truth of the gospel is just snatched away by the devil.

Ultimately, these elements are influential to our choices, but the choice of the will is its own volitional response.


Doug

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

No one reason for any of the “soil” types. I think we are all at various points of soil at different stages of our lives.

Some are born into better circumstances than others, being exposed to the gospel early can be surmised as an advantage, but it can also have a negative effect.

You can be born into an atheistic environment, which made be a disadvantage to believing, but not necessarily.

The gospel seed, according to Jesus, is hindered or even thwarted by the nature of the soil, the condition of the heart at the time of hearing the gospel, and these conditions are described as being temporal experiences, “worries, riches, pleasures of life, persecution, etc. Sometimes the truth of the gospel is just snatched away by the devil.

Ultimately, these elements are influential to our choices, but the choice of the will is its own volitional response.


Doug

So today they're rocks, but tomorrow they could be good soil. That's some pretty impressive erosion going on.

 

[civic]

There is no advantage factor. Just like the information here on the forum, there is information about Calvinism and Arminianism and we have the choice to believe the argument that we think the most persuasive. You will either believe an argument or you won’t. The difference is merely your own choice or understanding.


Doug

Exactly brother

 

[civic]

So today they're rocks, but tomorrow they could be good soil. That's some pretty impressive erosion going on.

Its clear you don't understand the 4 soils

 

[Frank Russell]

So today they're rocks, but tomorrow they could be good soil. That's some pretty impressive erosion going on.

So the different soil types are not pre-destined?

 

[TibiasDad]

So today they're rocks, but tomorrow they could be good soil. That's some pretty impressive erosion going on.

Soil is metaphorically representative of our life circumstances at the moment we hear the gospel. There were times in my life where I was not in a good place to respond to the gospel properly. At other times, I was convicted by the gospel, but was scared to respond to it positively. I showed a cursory acceptance, but was not committed. The Lord kept sowing in my life, however, and the former “rocks” of fear had lost their grip upon my heart and I surrendered to the Lord’s gracious mercy.

Footnote: You notice that the rocky soil seed springs to life, but soon dies because of lack of depth of soil. Sure sounds like an ability to respond to and understand the gospel.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

How did some end up honest with a good heart that they would be the good soil? What does anyone have that was not given to them by God?

The purpose of the parable is to teach the disciples about sowing the gospel! The lesson is that though we sow onto many types of soil, most of our efforts can be expected to be unfruitful at any given time. Only 25% of our efforts produce fruitful results; all the rest are variously unfruitful in the end, and yet we are supposed to keep sowing unsparingly. We cannot tell what kind of ground the seed is going to land on, and ultimately it doesn’t matter, because the sowers job is to sow!


Doug

 

[TomL]

11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

How did some end up honest with a good heart that they would be the good soil? What does anyone have that was not given to them by God?

Care to explain how these addled by totally inability were able to believe

Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[brightfame52]

I have explained both aspects sufficiently. It is in its essence a command to submit to being acted upon by another.

Doug

The passive voice means the subject is being acted upon, so God by His imperative via the Gospel Truth is causing them to believe the Truth of their reconciliation, hence His command is backed up by His Power to produce the result of faith. Also the ones to whom this imperative is issued to are already regenerated new creatures in Christ vs 17. Has nothing to do with unregenerate spiritually dead sinners.

 

[TomL]

The passive voice means the subject is being acted upon, so God by His imperative via the Gospel Truth is causing them to believe the Truth of their reconciliation, hence His command is backed up by His Power to produce the result of faith. Also the ones to whom this imperative is issued to are already regenerated new creatures in Christ vs 17. Has nothing to do with unregenerate spiritually dead sinners.

Doug corrected noted they were to submit to the reconciliation of God

2 Corinthians 5:20 (UASV) — 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Reconciliation was made on their behalf. They had no part in making it. They did have as part in accepting it