Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?
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TibiasDad
Well-known member
Only according to your own definition. We claim that the Holy Spirit enlightens us to the truth and then we are able to make a choice for or against believing what we have been told. Our choice, by definition, can only be ours, not God’s for us. We are not saved by our own actions, but by God who promised to do so if we believe.
Doug
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
For the sake of argument only, assuming that's how it works, you're still stuck explaining the difference between the person who chooses right and the person who chooses wrong. What advantage did the person choosing right have, and where did he get it? If you say "none" then you might as well just say it's random. The unsaved guy had a bad roll of the dice.
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The reason for the choice is the choser
You beg the question and assume an advantage.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its an imperative passive voice, you know what passive voice means ?
Be ye reconciled to God (καταλλαγητε τῳ θεῳ [katallagēte tōi theōi]). Second aorist passive imperative of καταλλασσω [katallassō] and used with the dative case. “Get reconciled to God,” and do it now. This is the ambassador’s message as he bears it to men from God.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 2 Co 5:20.
Be ye reconciled to God. This is the sum and burden of the message which the ministers of the gospel bear to their fellow-men; see Note on ver. 19. It implies that man has something to do in this work. He is to be reconciled to God. He is to give up his opposition. He is to submit to the terms of mercy. All the change in the case is to be in him, for God cannot change. God has removed all the obstacles to reconciliation which existed on his part. He has done all that he will do, all that needed to be done, in order to render reconciliation easy as possible. And now it remains that man should lay aside his hostility, abandon his sins, embrace the terms of mercy, and become in fact reconciled to God
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: II Corinthians & Galatians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 132.
civic
Well-known member
Gotta luv it when we get an honest and unbiased Calvinist Theologian that will tell you what the TEXT actually means apart from a Calvinist lens. The Calvinists on forums CANNOT and WILL NOT read and study their bibles without bias.
Which is why I love quoting Calvinists to refute Calvinism
civic
Well-known member
Have you ever noticed they never address them when we quote them but instead ignore them and turn a blind eye ?
Its like the more you quote them the harder they become like a lump of clay in the potters hands. Sounds like Pharaoh.
Like most rebuttal
TibiasDad
Well-known member
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Yes, but if God just acts on his own, there is no need for the imperative/command. God, according to you, regenerates us, which in turn will irresistibly cause us to believe. There is no need to command one to do anything, for God doesn’t need our willful participation; he causes everything to happen and cannot be thwarted.
Passive voice means I am being acted upon by another party; it doesn’t mean that I have no participation in the process. It only means that I submit to being acted on, which explains the need and purpose of the imperative.
Doug
Rockson
Well-known member
Excellent response! Calvinism has God doing absolute meaningless things. It's an absolute insult to human intelligence for one to accept God can be the way the Calvinists claim he is.
Exactly commands are superfluous. You cannot obey them on your own and if God determines them you cannot resist
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Because if one had an advantage over the other, and God gave him that advantage, that's called election. If his advantage came from within himself, he has reason to boast. But boasting is excluded, so only the former can be true.
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civic
Well-known member
It’s called partiality and God is no respecter of persons. The Calvinist UE is unbiblical
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
You don't know what that means. God not being a respecter of persons means He doesn't value a rich man over a poor man or a wise man over a free-willer.
civic
Well-known member
Nope doesn’t elect anyone like Calvinism teaches. All can come who are willing to come. The gospel is for all the world, all people. The atonement was for the sins of believers and unbelievers alike - 1 John 2:2, John 3:16-18. Belief saves
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Depends on how "rabid" the particular variety of "Calvinism" is. I encountered some hyper-Calvinists some years back that didn't "Evangelize" and just "Collected sheep". Since their version of "Elect" meant that they were already "saved", and just had to come into fellowship with the Visible church. MOre commonly, Calvies (and other evangelists) serve to present the Gospel, and assist the convert in surrendering to the Spirit, repenting, and calling on God in Faith. "Calvinism" isn't a "Monolith", and has many varieties like any other denominational system. Of course it's the Holy SPirit, who privides the "Persuasion", and the "hearing of FAITH" that gets the job done.
civic
Well-known member
That’s what brightfame believes
