praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Adam was righteous. Righteous men sin. They still do.
Adam's will was not bound by his actions.
Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Adam's will was not bound by his actions.
yes, indeed...but sin can only arise from a free will (or GOD is guilty of creating that which HE hates, a house divided), so after he sinned he was enslaved by sin, unrighteous and in need of grace with no willpower to save himself or even to do good: Romans 3:10-12
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
We CAN PERSUADE THE LOST intellectually, (maybe, if we're good "Salesmen"). We can persuade them to give Mental assent to a "theology" or a denominational package, or a Theological systematic, or become members of our "Church System".
But - they're still spiritually LOST, and in SIN. They'v just become "Religious".
WE CAN'T produce FAITH in them, and THEY can't produce FAITH in themselves. Eph 2:8,9 indicates that GOD GIFTS faith by HIS WORD TO US (The "hearing of FAITH" Gal 3:2).
SO - OUR evangelistic responsibility ends when we've presented (as Paul said) "Jesus and Him Crucified". The "PERSUADING" comes when the Holy Spirit drives our words (or the Bible's words) into their heart, and convicts them of their sin, which immediately "Blows away" their phony personal theology, their Religious fantasies, and their "intellectual objections" like so much Chaff in the wind. It's STILL THEIR DECISION to surrender, and repent calling on God for salvation. But in shorthand: NO CONVICTION of SIN = NO CONVERSION.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
It should be noted that Adam - WITHOUT BENEFIT OF A "SINFUL NATURE" - SINNED in exactly the way the James one details. The only thing that CHANGED in Adam, and Eve was that they were now DEAD - spiritually - just like we all DIE in the same way when we begin to SIN.
A Spiritually LOST person is completely capable of doing "GOOD" at the human level (happens all the time), and we sin WILLFULLY because with our HUMAN NATURE, we choose to.
The difference between us and Jesus in that respect is that when Jesus was "drawn away by His lust, and enticed" (james 1:14) Jesus DID NOT ALLOW IT TO "CONCEIVE" and result in SIN. But Jesus KNOWS and understands temptation as one who personally experienced it.
What the Spiritually LOST person CAN'T do, is generate in themselves "SAVING FAITH". That only happens when God convicts of SIN, and of judgement.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Yes, to secure offerings.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Means.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Calvinism doesn’t allow for any free will at anytime! All things are predetermined by God, and cannot be anything other than what he had determined to be.
Doug
I'm obviously not Calvinist...
civic
Well-known member
Well not the free will that’s an actual choice.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
There is no free will without undetermined choice.Well not the free will that’s an actual choice.
Doug
civic
Well-known member
Exactly
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith is persuasion, and its given to the elect in their conversion which is part of their Salvation Gift. The elect are persuaded they have been saved and Justified by Christ Blood.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
How? Please detail this absolute persuasion you pretend to have.
Bronson
Active member
So much for evangelism.
One should always stress God's love when evangelizing instead of trying to explain Doctrine. trying to explain the elect to someone that's not saved will only add to their confusion they won't become persuaded into accepting Christ. They may just roll their eyes at you.
Here is my theory for that. I believe that many Calvinists, who have come to a place of peace with their doctrine, do not understand how to communicate their beliefs in a way that engenders a sense of the love of Christ in their narrative. They believe that they are logical in their approach to Scripture and do not understand what they perceive to be an illogical objection by those who oppose Calvinist doctrine. And when they can't get through to people their go to quote is "You just don't understand Calvinism."
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
The "cat is out of the box". This doctrine has been around for thousands of years in one form or another. It is why the Pharisees and Lawyers that sought to kill Christ refused to believe that God would do anything without THEM.....
It is the very reason that some are endless waiting "for God to move" upon them to overwhelm any and all resistance in them.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Comes to mind in terms of "persuasion"
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. (1 Corinthians 1:17)
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. (1 Corinthians 1:17)
Bronson
Active member
Calvinists are definitely good at colloquialism. But not good enough as they can't fool me, because I wasn't born yesterday. And on top of that it's not my first rodeo.
Rockson
Well-known member
No offence but they may understand though what constitutes a rational thinking mind. Some of us might rightly agree we don't understanding Calvinism how it can claim God gives the choices but he predetermined the choice. I just make it simple....when something can't be it simply cannot be. If it can't it can't and we should never try to pretend that it can. To ones who do seek to do that I have to believe their natural mind is screaming at them "What in the world are you trying to do to me?"
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Bronson
Active member
I none taken. It's just a quote you will find used over and over by many Calvinists. I actually think it goes both ways it's Calvinist that do not really understand Calvinism if they did they'd say adios to it.
