Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?

[Frank Russell]

At least calvinism isn't some post apocalyptic motorist club with spiked clubs and calvin klein underwear on their heads.

 

[Bronson]

At least calvinism isn't some post apocalyptic motorist club with spiked clubs and calvin klein underwear on their heads.

At least.

 

[civic]

Faith is persuasion, and its given to the elect in their conversion which is part of their Salvation Gift. The elect are persuaded they have been saved and Justified by Christ Blood.

No reasoning is persuasion like Paul did in Acts

 

[brightfame52]

So much for evangelism.

One should always stress God's love when evangelizing instead of trying to explain Doctrine. trying to explain the elect to someone that's not saved will only add to their confusion they won't become persuaded into accepting Christ. They may just roll their eyes at you.

Here is my theory for that. I believe that many Calvinists, who have come to a place of peace with their doctrine, do not understand how to communicate their beliefs in a way that engenders a sense of the love of Christ in their narrative. They believe that they are logical in their approach to Scripture and do not understand what they perceive to be an illogical objection by those who oppose Calvinist doctrine. And when they can't get through to people their go to quote is "You just don't understand Calvinism."

Faith is persuasion and God does the persuading

 

[brightfame52]

No reasoning is persuasion like Paul did in Acts

God may use a person like Paul

 

[brightfame52]

The Cross of Christ produces persuasion, Faith since all them He died for shall be drawn to Him Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
That word draw ἕλκω means:

1. o draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel ,Usage: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.

Now if we study the word Faith/Believe pistis we find its derived from peithō :

persuade

1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

So the drawing not only of Jn 12 32 but also of Jn 6 44 is nothing short of being given the Gift of Faith in Christ, being induced to believe !

 

[Rockson]

Faith is persuasion and God does the persuading

OK then read the following and we'll go with it and come into agreement!

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20

OK Christ IN US is seeking to persuade the world to come into faith towards the Son. Of course you would claim he wasn't sincerely seeking to persuade or else they would have been always the basic place Calvinism takes one.....God isn't truly being sincere in the things that he does.

 

[Frank Russell]

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The universalist reading of this passage concludes all means all.

Perhaps the increase of universalist thought is a counter balance to all that calvinism out there.

 

[brightfame52]

OK then read the following and we'll go with it and come into agreement!

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20

OK Christ IN US is seeking to persuade the world to come into faith towards the Son. Of course you would claim he wasn't sincerely seeking to persuade or else they would have been always the basic place Calvinism takes one.....God isn't truly being sincere in the things that he does.

Thats a good scripture, God is doing the persuading to those whom have been reconciled to Him and have no sin charged to them, the "be ye reconciled" is an passive imperative, so they are being persuaded by the preaching of the Apostles to believe what is already True, which is Vs 19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Do you know what passive voice means ?

 

[civic]

OK then read the following and we'll go with it and come into agreement!

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20

OK Christ IN US is seeking to persuade the world to come into faith towards the Son. Of course you would claim he wasn't sincerely seeking to persuade or else they would have been always the basic place Calvinism takes one.....God isn't truly being sincere in the things that he does.

I can't wait to see what I will be reading as the next response.

 

[brightfame52]

The universalist reading of this passage concludes all means all.

Perhaps the increase of universalist thought is a counter balance to all that calvinism out there.

Yeah they in error, we know all here is limited to believers.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Thats a good scripture, God is doing the persuading to those whom have been reconciled to Him and have no sin charged to them, the "be ye reconciled" is an passive imperative, so they are being persuaded by the preaching of the Apostles to believe what is already True, which is Vs 19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Do you know what passive voice means ?

God does the work. Jesus came to seek and save the lost (His sheep). He didn't come to seek and save the reprobate (NOT His sheep).

 

[TibiasDad]

Thats a good scripture, God is doing the persuading to those whom have been reconciled to Him and have no sin charged to them, the "be ye reconciled" is an passive imperative, so they are being persuaded by the preaching of the Apostles to believe what is already True, which is Vs 19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Do you know what passive voice means ?

You notice that the imperative makes this a command, not a completed action done to us. In other words, it is telling us to submit ourselves to being persuaded by God through the preaching of the gospel.

Doug

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You notice that the imperative makes this a command, not a completed action done to us. In other words, it is telling us to submit ourselves to being persuaded by God through the preaching of the gospel.

Doug

A command tells what we ought to do. It does not prove we have the innate ability to do it on your own steam.

 

[Frank Russell]

Yeah they in error, we know all here is limited to believers.

The two errors appear to balance each other out.

 

[civic]

You notice that the imperative makes this a command, not a completed action done to us. In other words, it is telling us to submit ourselves to being persuaded by God through the preaching of the gospel.

Doug

Excellent point !

 

[TibiasDad]

A command tells what we ought to do. It does not prove we have the innate ability to do it on your own steam.

1) Nobody says it’s by our “own steam”, so that is a straw man argument.

2) The command doesn’t, in itself, say anything one way or another. But the expectation that it should be obeyed implies that it can be. Without a contextual indication that believing is not possible, there can be no assumption that it cannot be obeyed.


Doug

 

[Rockson]

1) Nobody says it’s by our “own steam”, so that is a straw man argument.

2) The command doesn’t, in itself, say anything one way or another. But the expectation that it should be obeyed implies that it can be. Without a contextual indication that believing is not possible, there can be no assumption that it cannot be obeyed.


Doug

Yeah so we look at the phrase again, be ye reconciled to God. So that a exhortation to BE this way. It's not a declaration that you ARE that way. So Calvs say they ARE the elect and always have been.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

1) Nobody says it’s by our “own steam”, so that is a straw man argument.

2) The command doesn’t, in itself, say anything one way or another. But the expectation that it should be obeyed implies that it can be. Without a contextual indication that believing is not possible, there can be no assumption that it cannot be obeyed.


Doug

By your free will is the same thing as on your own steam.

 

[civic]

By your free will is the same thing as on your own steam.

Determinism is the same as the pagan Greek gods.