Johann
Well-known member
The flesh (σάρξ) in Paul’s writings refers to fallen humanity in its self-reliant state, opposed to God (Rom 8:7–8). But Scripture nowhere says that saving faith is produced by the flesh. Rather, faith comes by hearing the word (Rom 10:17), which is empowered by the Spirit and received by a volitional human response. Are we in agreement @Presby02?
Romans 8:8 – οἱ δὲ ἐν σαρκὶ ὄντες Θεῷ ἀρέσαι οὐ δύνανται
“Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
This refers to unregenerate, rebellious living-but not to all human action per se.
Faith, as Paul presents it, is not a self-generated work of the flesh but a response to divine revelation.
Luke 8:15 – ἐν καρδίᾳ καλῇ καὶ ἀγαθῇ ἀκούσαντες τὸν λόγον κατέχουσιν
“In an honest and good heart, having heard the word, they hold it fast.”
Jesus affirms the capacity of some to respond rightly--not from fleshly works, but from a receptive posture under God's word.
Philippians 1:29 – ὅτι ὑμῖν ἐχαρίσθη τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ... τοῦ πιστεύειν
“It has been granted to you... to believe in Him.”
Faith is a graciously enabled capacity, yes--but it is still your faith, and the grammar shows a divine gifting, not a divine substitution of the human will.
So yes, faith is a “good thing,” but its goodness lies in its orientation toward God and its source in God’s word--not in being a product of the flesh. Scripture never claims that believing in God is something the flesh initiates; it is rather what the Spirit convicts toward, and man must respond.
As to this-- “Exactly, SAVED BY GRACE, THROUGH faith. Not because of faith.”
Grammatically, the Greek construction in Ephesians 2:8 does not support a contrast between “through faith” and “because of faith.” Rather, it affirms faith as the necessary means by which grace is received.
Ephesians 2:8 – τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως
“By grace you have been saved through faith.”
διά + genitive (πίστεως) indicates means or agency, not irrelevance or detachment.
Paul does not say "saved by grace regardless of faith" or "with no reference to faith," but "through faith" as the necessary conduit.
Romans 5:1 – Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως
“Having been justified by faith” – here ἐκ + genitive emphasizes source or basis, not an unrelated process.
Faith precedes justification. Regeneration is the new life that follows justification, not what makes faith possible by replacing human will.
Your claim--- “So of course human agency is present BY THE SPIRIT.”
Precisely---but this admits that faith is not passively infused, but actively expressed. The Spirit does not believe for us. He convicts, draws, illuminates, but never removes human response.
Acts 2:37–41 – “What shall we do?” → “Repent... believe... be baptized.”
The Spirit was active (Acts 2:4), but Peter still calls for a human response.
Those who received his word (οἱ ἀποδεξάμενοι τὸν λόγον αὐτοῦ) were baptized (Acts 2:41).
The verb ἀποδέχομαι (to welcome, accept) is middle voice---implying volitional reception.
John 16:8–9 – ἐλέγξει τὸν κόσμον περὶ ἁμαρτίας... ὅτι οὐ πιστεύουσιν εἰς ἐμέ
“He will convict the world concerning sin... because they do not believe in Me.”
The Spirit’s work is to convict---not to irresistibly regenerate. The failure is unbelief, not inability.
Faith is a human response to divine initiative, not a product of the flesh, nor a robotic result of regeneration.
Scripture presents faith as the God-invited, Spirit-convicted, word-prompted decision of the individual to receive grace.
The grammar of Ephesians 2:8, Romans 5:1, and the entire framework of gospel calls shows that faith precedes regeneration, not the other way around.
"through faith" Faith receives God's free gift in Christ (cf. Rom_3:22; Rom_3:25; Rom_4:5; Rom_9:30; Gal_2:16; Gal_3:24; 1Pe_1:5). Mankind must respond to God's offer of grace and forgiveness in Christ (cf. Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16-17; Joh_3:36; Joh_6:40; Joh_11:25-26; Rom_10:9-13).
God deals with fallen mankind by means of a covenant. He always takes the initiative (cf. Joh_6:44; Joh_6:65) and sets the agenda and the boundaries (cf. Mar_1:15; Act_3:16; Act_3:19; Act_20:21). He allows fallen mankind to participate in their own salvation by responding to His covenant offer. The mandated response is both initial and continuing faith. It involves repentance, obedience, service, worship, and perseverance.
The term "faith" in the OT is a metaphorical extension of a stable stance. It came to denote that which is sure, trustworthy, dependable, and faithful. None of these describe even redeemed fallen mankind. It is not mankind's trustworthiness, or faithfulness, or dependability, but God's. We trust in His trustworthy promises, not our trustworthiness! Covenant obedience flows from gratitude! The focus has always been on His faithfulness, not the believers' faith! Faith cannot save anyone.
Only grace saves, but it is received by faith. The focus is never on the amount of faith (cf. Mat_17:20), but on its object (Jesus).
SPECIAL TOPIC: Believe, Trust, Faith, and Faithfulness in the Old Testament (ןמא)
"and that" This is the Greek demonstrative pronoun (touto), which is neuter in gender. The closest nouns, "grace" and "faith," are both feminine in gender. Therefore, this must refer to the whole process of our salvation in the finished work of Christ.
There is another possibility based on a similar grammatical construction in Php_1:28. If this is the case then this adverbial phrase relates to faith, which is also a gift of God's grace! Here is the mystery of God's sovereignty and human free will.
faith. App-150. We are saved by grace, not by faith, which is the channel through (dia) which flows to us the Divine stream of saving grace. Both alike God's gifts.
Bullinger.
--though Robertson wrote---
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. I don't agree with him.
Tag me if you want further dialogue.
J
