Is Jesus the Christ a human Person?

[Bob Carabbio]

“Obviously there is no trinitarian doctrine in the Synoptics or Acts. But there are traces of the triadic pattern of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in both.”

(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 14)

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet -

"Theologians" always write "books".

 

[Matthias]

Do ya think????

Actually they were nothing but "Religious FOOLS" carrying out their "Theological terrorism".

It's the utter SPIRITUAL STUPIDITY, and Biblical IGNORANCE of the murdering fools that was the problem. they were under satan's influence, and he was leading them around by the nose.

BINGO!!!

There's ONLY ONE CHURCH of Jesus Christ, and it's NEVER BEEN a visible religio-political business / denomination. I'm a member in good standing of the "Assemblies of God" (so I have someplace to go and gather with other Christians) but it's NOT the "One church of Jesus Christ" - it's just another "Religious system". I can live with most of it's "Official doctrines".

The ONE CHURCH of Jesus Christ is that body of people, both physically living and physically dead, who have been BORN AGAIN of the Holy Spirit, and cleaned of their SIN.

I find much in your post that I’m able to agree with.

 

[Johann]

They have some good (and not so good) and important things to say, but trinitarianism comes from the Church, not from the sages of Judaism.

Christianity, not Judaism, brought us the doctrine of the Trinity.

Not so @Matthias

Many Jewish thinkers have recognized there is Trinitarian evidence in the old testament and this video goes over these facts.

The Trinity in the Old Testament:

• The Trinity in the Old Testament


Sources:

Found JS - All about Betting

Soccer Betting Analysis - Get The Chance to find How Handicap Betting works in soccer betting

podcast.foundjs.org

The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel - Dr. Benjamin Sommer

http://www.biblestudying.net/trinity9...

Genesis, The JPS Torah Commentary - Nahum Sarna

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus - Dr. Michael Brown

The Works of Philo - Translated by C. D. Yonge

J.

 

[Matthias]

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet -

"Theologians" always write "books".

His is a history book. The average person has little if any knowledge about, nor interest in learning, the historical details of the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Matthias]

Not so @Matthias

Many Jewish thinkers have recognized there is Trinitarian evidence in the old testament and this video goes over these facts.

The Trinity in the Old Testament:

• The Trinity in the Old Testament


Sources:

Found JS - All about Betting

Soccer Betting Analysis - Get The Chance to find How Handicap Betting works in soccer betting

podcast.foundjs.org

The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel - Dr. Benjamin Sommer

http://www.biblestudying.net/trinity9...

Genesis, The JPS Torah Commentary - Nahum Sarna

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus - Dr. Michael Brown

The Works of Philo - Translated by C. D. Yonge

J.

I’m aware of the claims. I can say with certainty that the doctrine of the Trinity came from the Church, not from Judaism.

One of the best conversations I’ve had on the subject was with a trinitarian on another forum, many years ago, who grounded his belief on the Zohar.

 

[Johann]

I’m aware of the claims. I can say with certainty that the doctrine of the Trinity came from the Church, not from Judaism.

Yet Benjamin says otherwise-and I can give you many more references.

Seems that you are not that transparent after all @Matthias-as I can say with certainty that the Sages knew about the Triune Godhead BEFORE the advent of Christianity.
Right?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

His is a history book. The average person has little if any knowledge about, nor interest in learning, the historical details of the doctrine of the Trinity.

"Doctrines" are nothing but "codified theology". ALL God's chilluns gots "Doctrines". WHO CARES about the "History"??? The bible is sufficient: GOD IS ONE - Father SON and Holy Spirit. Problem solved.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Yet Benjamin says otherwise-and I can give you many more references.

Seems that you are not that transparent after all @Matthias-as I can say with certainty that the Sages knew about the Triune Godhead BEFORE the advent of Christianity.
Right?

And when the Jews GOT their Messiah, they REJECTED Him (Because He didn't DO what their "Theology" said He HAD to do).
So they got Him murdered, out of fear of the Romans.

There were a few Jews, who "got it right", but their opinion didn't matter.

 

[Matthias]

Yet Benjamin says otherwise-and I can give you many more references.

Seems that you are not that transparent after all @Matthias-as I can say with certainty that the Sages knew about the Triune Godhead BEFORE the advent of Christianity.
Right?

No. It took the Church centuries to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity.

I’ve posted the testimony of orthodox trinitarian scholars - on this forum and many others - documenting the movement of the early church away from the unitary monotheism of Israel to the trinitary monotheism of Nicaea.

The Trinity comes from Christianity, not Judaism.

 

[Johann]

And when the Jews GOT their Messiah, they REJECTED Him (Because He didn't DO what their "Theology" said He HAD to do).
So they got Him murdered, out of fear of the Romans.

There were a few Jews, who "got it right", but their opinion didn't matter.

This is a topic under Judaism and I am not anti-Semitic

No. It took the Church centuries to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity.

I’ve posted the testimony of orthodox trinitarian scholars - on this forum and many others - documenting the movement of the early church away from the unitary monotheism of Israel to the trinitary monotheism of Nicaea.

The Trinity comes from Christianity, not Judaism.

So you are saying Benjamin Sommers is lying and the ancient rabbis-right @Matthias?

A yes/no will suffice.

 

[Matthias]

"Doctrines" are nothing but "codified theology". ALL God's chilluns gots "Doctrines".

Doctrine -> teaching.

WHO CARES about the "History"???

The very problem that I, and others who are historically grounded, constantly run into. Most people don’t know, and don’t want to know, how we got here. They’re satisfied in their ignorance.

The bible is sufficient: GOD IS ONE - Father SON and Holy Spirit. Problem solved.

The Bible is sufficient. GOD IS ONE . Problem solved, if we believe Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

So you are saying Benjamin Sommers is lying and the ancient rabbis-right @Matthias?

A yes/no will suffice.

A yes/no will not suffice.

I don’t believe that Sommers is intentionally lying. He is drawing conclusions which are incorrect.

How do trinitarians typically react to your assertion that trinitarianism comes from Judaism, not from Christianity?

 

[Johann]

A yes/no will not suffice.

I don’t believe that Sommers is intentionally lying. He is drawing conclusions which are incorrect.

How do trinitarians typically react to your assertion that trinitarianism comes from Judaism, not from Christianity?

The Mystery of the Trinity
N. Friedmann
Concordia Seminary, St. Louis

And that is what is taught by Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai, the
revered teacher of Israel. In his book hci-Zohcir hci-Kadosl~, part 2,
page 43, he states, "We have repeatedly said that the daily prayer
relative to the unity which the Scripture teaches is, Hear, 0 Israel Jehovah- then Elohenu-then again Jehovah-which together
constitute a unity. Therefore God is called an intc." In the next
sentence he declares, "But there are three names" i'.mentioned here.
How can three be one? Are they truly one because we say they
are? Only by revelation of the Ruach ha-Kodesh can we understand it."

Realize, dear brethren of Israel, that the doctrine of the Triune
God is not an invention of the Christians, as the present-day
leaders of Israel declare, for it is taught not only in the Old Testament, but is also an ancient rabbinical doctrine.

Moses and the
Prophets clearly taught the doctrine of the Trinity, and the ancient
rabbis accepted this doctrine, as we have shown from their writings.

Blessed are we in time and eternity if we believe in the Triune
God, for then we have not only the Father who created us, but
also the Son of God, the eternal Memra Jehovah, who in the
fullness of time assumed our human nature in order to redeem
us and all sinners from all sins by His sacrificial death and thus
reconcile us to the holy and just God. Finally, we have also the
third Person of the Godhead, the Holy Ghost, who works and
preserves faith in us by means of the Gospel of Jesus, the Messiah,
and who bears witness with our spirit that we are redeemed children of God and therefore heirs of eternal life.

Guess these are all fabricated lies @Matthias?

 

[Matthias]

The Mystery of the Trinity
N. Friedmann
Concordia Seminary, St. Louis

And that is what is taught by Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai, the
revered teacher of Israel. In his book hci-Zohcir hci-Kadosl~, part 2,
page 43, he states, "We have repeatedly said that the daily prayer
relative to the unity which the Scripture teaches is, Hear, 0 Israel Jehovah- then Elohenu-then again Jehovah-which together
constitute a unity. Therefore God is called an intc." In the next
sentence he declares, "But there are three names" i'.mentioned here.
How can three be one? Are they truly one because we say they
are? Only by revelation of the Ruach ha-Kodesh can we understand it."

Realize, dear brethren of Israel, that the doctrine of the Triune
God is not an invention of the Christians, as the present-day
leaders of Israel declare, for it is taught not only in the Old Testament, but is also an ancient rabbinical doctrine.

Moses and the
Prophets clearly taught the doctrine of the Trinity, and the ancient
rabbis accepted this doctrine, as we have shown from their writings.

Blessed are we in time and eternity if we believe in the Triune
God, for then we have not only the Father who created us, but
also the Son of God, the eternal Memra Jehovah, who in the
fullness of time assumed our human nature in order to redeem
us and all sinners from all sins by His sacrificial death and thus
reconcile us to the holy and just God. Finally, we have also the
third Person of the Godhead, the Holy Ghost, who works and
preserves faith in us by means of the Gospel of Jesus, the Messiah,
and who bears witness with our spirit that we are redeemed children of God and therefore heirs of eternal life.

Guess these are all fabricated lies @Matthias?

Guess again.

I don’t accuse those who draw incorrect conclusions of intentionally lying. No one should.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

This is a topic under Judaism and I am not anti-Semitic

Neither am I, but the simple FACT of the matter is that the "Chosen People", who WERE GIVEN GOD'S WORD, blew it COMPLETELY.

So - why would the "Jewish religious experts/theologians" be taken seriously in anything they say???

 

[Johann]

Guess again.

I don’t accuse those who draw incorrect conclusions of lying. No one should.

I have many more rabbinical sources concurring with Benjamin-would you say they ALL are incorrect in their conclusions?
I won't share the sources here.
J.

 

[Johann]

Neither am I, but the simple FACT of the matter is that the "Chosen People", who WERE GIVEN GOD'S WORD, blew it COMPLETELY.

So - why would the "Jewish religious experts/theologians" be taken seriously in anything they say???

Because you don't read ancient rabbinical writings and not interested in history-as @Matthias rightly said-

"The very problem that I, and others who are historically grounded, constantly run into. Most people don’t know, and don’t want to know, how we got here. They’re satisfied in their ignorance."

But if it is not your cup of tea I don't force you or coerce you-each to his own.
J.

 

[Matthias]

I have many more rabbinical sources concurring with Benjamin-would you say they ALL are incorrect in their conclusions?
I won't share the sources here.
J.

It isn’t a matter of quantity; it’s a matter of quality.

The concept of memra is a good topic for another thread.

In such a thread, were I to participate in it, I would ask about hypostatization in connection with it.

The topic of this thread is the teaching of orthodoxy (not Jewish Rabbis) concerning the person of Jesus the Christ.

 

[Johann]

It isn’t a matter of quantity; it’s a matter of quality.

The concept of memra is a good topic for another thread.

In such a thread, were I to participate in it, I would ask about hypostatization in connection with it.

The topic of this thread is the teaching of orthodoxy (not Jewish Rabbis) concerning the person of Jesus the Christ.

The judgement of the ancient Jewish church, against the Unitarians in the controversy upon the holy Trinity, and the divinity of our Blessed Saviour : with A table of matters, and A table of texts of scriptures occasionally explain'd / by a divine of

quod.lib.umich.edu

 

[Matthias]

The judgement of the ancient Jewish church, against the Unitarians in the controversy upon the holy Trinity, and the divinity of our Blessed Saviour : with A table of matters, and A table of texts of scriptures occasionally explain'd / by a divine of

quod.lib.umich.edu

Listen to Jesus. He tells us in scripture who his God and the God of his disciples is.

This thread isn’t about listening to Jesus. This thread is about listening to orthodoxy and what it teaches concerning Jesus.