All we ask is that we try to all get along.
How Christ’s death secures the salvation of those who believe.
- Thread starter Theophilus
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civic
Well-known member
She is not a gnostic
e v e
Well-known member
i'm used to that by now, being made illegitimate by that label, as that label was wrongly placed on me to accomplish that. And often i was spoken about in that way while present but not directly spoken to about it......
e v e
Well-known member
I do see why someone 'could' hastily say that but really I am not. Thank you.
e v e
Well-known member
I don't think woke and race are involved
unless you mean philistines versus christians
; )
ha ha
Johann
Well-known member
Actually-this is not really true and verifiable.
Isaiah 53 - The Forbidden Chapter
Our ministry, ONE FOR ISRAEL, is a movement of Jewish and Arab Israeli followers of Jesus with a commission to reach their country and the nations with the Gospel. We see our call to equip believers in Israel and around the world with the tools of ministry through our media outreach, and to...www.oneforisrael.org
There are Christian missionaries who claim there is a conspiracy to hide the truth from you.
They assert that “There is a chapter in the Tanach [Jewish scriptures] that used to be read in synagogues, but later, the rabbis decided to take it out of the Haftorah [weekly prophetic readings] ‘to avoid confusion’... and today it is considered ‘The Forbidden Chapter’ hidden from Jews.”
The chapter, which missionaries say the rabbis do not want you to read, is Isaiah 53, which Christians believe describes the messiah [Jesus] dying for our sins.
This false claim[1] which is easily debunked is a ploy to get people to look at “The Forbidden Chapter” out of context, and thereby accept Jesus. However, when read in context, Isaiah 53 is not speaking about anyone dying “for” our sins. Isaiah describes the Jewish people who suffered “from” the violence perpetrated against them by the nations of the world.
Furthermore, concerning a conspiracy, the missionaries are either intentionally misleading people or are ignorant of the history of the public reading of the prophets.
There are numerous problems with their conspiracy theory:
1) There is no rabbinic edict that prohibits Jews from reading any portion of the Jewish bible. On the contrary, the Jewish bible, including the book of Isaiah, is accessible to anyone who wants to read it.
2) The weekly prophetic readings, as we know them, were instituted in the 2nd century BCE when King Antiochus forbade Jews from reading from the Torah [Five Books of Moses]. Since the King did not forbid reading from the prophets, the sages instituted the public reading of portions of the prophets that shared a theme corresponding to the outlawed Torah reading. In this way, the weekly lesson would not be forgotten.
3) To accomplish their immediate goal the sages used only a small percentage of the prophets. The omission of the remainder of the prophetic writing was not intended to hide their content, to the contrary, they were available to anyone who wanted to study them.
4) If the rabbis had conspired to hide prophetic passages which Christians claim to refer to Jesus, they would have not included Isaiah 9:6 as part of the reading for Yisro, as is the custom of many Jewish congregations. Our sages knew that when read in context people would understand that Isaiah 9:6 refers to the righteous King Hezekiah. Similarly, the sages did not “hide” Torah passages which Christians say refer to Jesus.
5) As mentioned above, the portions of the prophets were chosen to correspond to the yearly cycle of Torah reading. These were divided into different categories: The Torah portion, holidays, the three weeks leading to the commemoration of the destruction of the Temple on the 9th of Av, and the subsequent 7 weeks of consolation and comfort. Although portions of Isaiah were read for these weeks of comfort, the message contained in Isaiah 53 did not provide this and was not included along with the vast majority of the book of Isaiah.
6) Finally, some scholars point out that the Dead Sea Scrolls contain a parchment known as 4Q176. This parchment is also referred to as 4QTanhumi [Tanhumi means comfort] and lists similar chapters from Isaiah to be read as consolation and comfort for the destruction of the Temple. Interestingly, the parchment does not include Isaiah 53, and since Dead Sea Scrolls predated rabbinic Judaism, it refutes the claim that there was a rabbinical conspiracy to hide Isaiah 53 from the public.
Debunking "The Forbidden Chapter” Conspiracy
www.jewsforjudaism.org
I think Dr. Michael Brown would agree here.
Shalom
J.
Johann
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
Actually-this is not really true and verifiable.
There are Christian missionaries who claim there is a conspiracy to hide the truth from you.
They assert that “There is a chapter in the Tanach [Jewish scriptures] that used to be read in synagogues, but later, the rabbis decided to take it out of the Haftorah [weekly prophetic readings] ‘to avoid confusion’... and today it is considered ‘The Forbidden Chapter’ hidden from Jews.”
The chapter, which missionaries say the rabbis do not want you to read, is Isaiah 53, which Christians believe describes the messiah [Jesus] dying for our sins.
This false claim[1] which is easily debunked is a ploy to get people to look at “The Forbidden Chapter” out of context, and thereby accept Jesus. However, when read in context, Isaiah 53 is not speaking about anyone dying “for” our sins. Isaiah describes the Jewish people who suffered “from” the violence perpetrated against them by the nations of the world.
Furthermore, concerning a conspiracy, the missionaries are either intentionally misleading people or are ignorant of the history of the public reading of the prophets.
There are numerous problems with their conspiracy theory:
1) There is no rabbinic edict that prohibits Jews from reading any portion of the Jewish bible. On the contrary, the Jewish bible, including the book of Isaiah, is accessible to anyone who wants to read it.
2) The weekly prophetic readings, as we know them, were instituted in the 2nd century BCE when King Antiochus forbade Jews from reading from the Torah [Five Books of Moses]. Since the King did not forbid reading from the prophets, the sages instituted the public reading of portions of the prophets that shared a theme corresponding to the outlawed Torah reading. In this way, the weekly lesson would not be forgotten.
3) To accomplish their immediate goal the sages used only a small percentage of the prophets. The omission of the remainder of the prophetic writing was not intended to hide their content, to the contrary, they were available to anyone who wanted to study them.
4) If the rabbis had conspired to hide prophetic passages which Christians claim to refer to Jesus, they would have not included Isaiah 9:6 as part of the reading for Yisro, as is the custom of many Jewish congregations. Our sages knew that when read in context people would understand that Isaiah 9:6 refers to the righteous King Hezekiah. Similarly, the sages did not “hide” Torah passages which Christians say refer to Jesus.
5) As mentioned above, the portions of the prophets were chosen to correspond to the yearly cycle of Torah reading. These were divided into different categories: The Torah portion, holidays, the three weeks leading to the commemoration of the destruction of the Temple on the 9th of Av, and the subsequent 7 weeks of consolation and comfort. Although portions of Isaiah were read for these weeks of comfort, the message contained in Isaiah 53 did not provide this and was not included along with the vast majority of the book of Isaiah.
6) Finally, some scholars point out that the Dead Sea Scrolls contain a parchment known as 4Q176. This parchment is also referred to as 4QTanhumi [Tanhumi means comfort] and lists similar chapters from Isaiah to be read as consolation and comfort for the destruction of the Temple. Interestingly, the parchment does not include Isaiah 53, and since Dead Sea Scrolls predated rabbinic Judaism, it refutes the claim that there was a rabbinical conspiracy to hide Isaiah 53 from the public.
Debunking "The Forbidden Chapter” Conspiracy
I think Dr. Michael Brown would agree here.
Shalom
J.
Here is the explanation of a scholar-Michael Brown.
Johann
Well-known member
No problem here-but some have a preconceived mindset and don't want to be corrected-I am all for correction-willing to learn..
Johann.
Johann
Well-known member
So true-I believe there is going to be a law that it would be forbidden to "evangelize" to any Jew-my question-Who is a Jew since their carefully "lineage" have been destroyed in AD 70?
Johann.
civic
Well-known member
she is not a gnostic but anti-gnostic as I've known her for years. She is a professor and teaches against gnosticism and augustines gnostic influence in the church.
Johann
Well-known member
I'm getting to know the members-and not here to break down a tender reed or quench a smoking flax brother.
Johann
civic
Well-known member
Yes I know you well enough not to think anything different of you friend.
e v e
Well-known member
Brother-I don't think @dizerner was "labelling" you as gnostic-so ease the foot off the pedal-I love this site and if truth is truth, as written in Scriptures, Perfect Tense-then we should hearken to correction and not come with a preconceived mindset.
Shalom
J.
true, having a mindset glued to
the sealed vision is bad...
i don't believe that what you present is isaiah 53
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Johann
Well-known member
I haven't seen you quote Scripture references yet-so what is it about Isa 53 you don't understand?
Fool4Christ
Active member
My hats off to anyone that studies out Isaiah 53. I would recommend starting with 52 but all the servant songs are great. There's so much in there to learn about how we should live our lives today.
Johann
Well-known member
I have read Tovia Singer's version and the Christian version.
Which one do you prefer?
I'm not sure About Tovia Singer's Version And mostly what I've heard about the Christian version is just that it's a chapter in the Bible that has the most prophecies about Jesus. But me personally here's one I like.
Enduring Word Bible Commentary Isaiah Chapter 53
David Guzik commentary on Isaiah 53 describes the atoning suffering and the victory of the Messiah, who will bear the sin of the world.
enduringword.com
Isaiah 51-53 – The Atoning Suffering & Victory of the Messiah
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