Confessing / "Having" / Knowing The Monogenic Son of God [49]

[Pancho Frijoles]

It is impossible to believe in Jesus yet not believe in His deity.

No, my brother.
Reality show us a different thing. They are millions of people who are true disciples of Jesus, and live Jesus life, and yet do not believe in his deity.
These people get forgiveness of their sins every day.
I would be surprised if you have not met these people at work, at school, within your own family. I have.

From a biblical perspective, we can go through

• every single instance recorded in the gospels on how Jesus healed or forgave someone who came to Him
• every single instance recorded in the gospels on who Jesus taught how Gods forgive

and discover that Jesus never ever required those people to believe in his deity, or in a doctrine about blood atonement or physical resurrection. Never made His parables and stories indicate that people who repent have to believe in such doctrines.

I'm not talking about marginal episodes of ambiguous statements. I'm talking about LECTURES, given on the SPECIFIC TOPIC, given by JESUS, on forgiveness.
I'm not talking about one verse here or another one there. I'm talking about more than 100 verses, all of them unequivocal, all of them specific to the subject, and all of them as authoritative as Jesus can be.

 

[Doug Brents]

No, my brother.
Reality show us a different thing. They are millions of people who are true disciples of Jesus, and live Jesus life, and yet do not believe in his deity.

There are millions of people today (billions over the last 2000 years) who think they are saved, who believe that they are right with God, who think they are true disciples of Jesus, and they may even be living a good life; but if they do not believe that Jesus is God (like the jw's or muslims) then they are not saved.

These people get forgiveness of their sins every day.

Sorry, but they are not. Scripture says that, under the New Covenant, only those who believe that Jesus is God and obey what He says receive forgiveness.

I would be surprised if you have not met these people at work, at school, within your own family. I have.

I have indeed met many who believed they were saved but were not. It is very sad, but Jesus says that at Judgement there will be many who still think they are saved, but He will say, "I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice wickedness."

From a biblical perspective, we can go through

• every single instance recorded in the gospels on how Jesus healed or forgave someone who came to Him

Just because someone is healed does not mean that they are forgiven. Jesus healed many people, but He only forgave a few.

• every single instance recorded in the gospels on who Jesus taught how Gods forgive

and discover that Jesus never ever required those people to believe in his deity, or in a doctrine about blood atonement or physical resurrection. Never made His parables and stories indicate that people who repent have to believe in such doctrines.

And all of His dealings with people occurred under the Old Covenant. None of the people He forgave were subject to the New Covenant yet.

I'm not talking about marginal episodes of ambiguous statements. I'm talking about LECTURES, given on the SPECIFIC TOPIC, given by JESUS, on forgiveness.
I'm not talking about one verse here or another one there. I'm talking about more than 100 verses, all of them unequivocal, all of them specific to the subject, and all of them as authoritative as Jesus can be.

As has been stated elsewhere, ALL of Scripture is equally inspired by God, which means that all of it is equally correct all of the time. He may have made 100 speeches in which He talked about forgiveness, but if He made even one statement with an additional instruction on what is required to receive forgiveness then that additional instruction is as binding as the 100 speeches. And God inspiring the writers of the NT makes their writing equally error free and binding on us today.
Jesus said that those who believe in Him and are baptized will be saved. If you don't believe in Him AND receive baptism, then you don't receive salvation (which requires forgiveness to be received also)(Mark 16:16).
Paul wrote (through the inspiration of God) that if you don't believe in Jesus AND confess Him as Lord (God), then you will not receive salvation (Rom 10:9-10).
Luke wrote that Peter said that in order to be saved you must repent of your sin and be baptized into Christ (Acts 2:38).
Paul wrote that it is in baptism that we die to sin (Rom 6:1-7), have sin cut from us (Col 2:11-14), are resurrected with Christ, are adopted into God's family (Gal 3:26-27), are made spotless and blemish free (Eph 5:26-27), and are saved (1 Pet 3:21).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There are millions of people today (billions over the last 2000 years) who think they are saved, who believe that they are right with God, who think they are true disciples of Jesus, and they may even be living a good life; but if they do not believe that Jesus is God (like the jw's or muslims) then they are not saved.

Sorry, but they are not. Scripture says that, under the New Covenant, only those who believe that Jesus is God and obey what He says receive forgiveness.

The Bible does not teach that.
The concept you are expressing here has no biblical support, no rational support, no support in the real knowledge of people on the street, but what worries me the most: it is not immoral, perverse.

So, what I think is that you don't believe what you say in your heart of hearts. Otherwise, if you were truly convinced that your religion teaches such nonsense, you would have already abandoned that religion... long ago!

I have indeed met many who believed they were saved but were not.

If they expressed the fruit of the Spirit, they were saved, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for Beelzebub to fake the works of the Spirit.
Be careful with what you reply to this statement, Doug. Remember what the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is.
If at any time we attributed the works of the Spirit in a Jehovah Witness or a Muslim to Beelzebub, we would be committing the same blasphemy that the enemies of Christ made, when they attributed the good works of Jesus to Beelzebub.

It is very sad, but Jesus says that at Judgement there will be many who still think they are saved, but He will say, "I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice wickedness."

Exactly. Those who practice wickedness.
Not those who are right or wrong on complex theology elucubrations.
As you can see, the verse you are presenting goes AGAINST what you uphold.

Just because someone is healed does not mean that they are forgiven. Jesus healed many people, but He only forgave a few.

The gospel deals with salvation of the soul, not with medical science. Otherwise Jesus would have come to the world to teach his disciples how to prevent or treat malaria, cholera, and the basics of anesthesia and antisepsia. So, the episodes of healing are recorded for us to learn about salvation of the soul.

Still, if you take out those healing episodes and concentrate of those of forgiveness, the persons Jesus forgave were not requested first to believe in his preexistence, deity, blood atonement or resurrection as a condition to be forgiven.
I challeng you to show us one single case in which Jesus first asked doctrinal questions and then forgave his sins.

And all of His dealings with people occurred under the Old Covenant. None of the people He forgave were subject to the New Covenant yet.

As has been stated elsewhere, ALL of Scripture is equally inspired by God, which means that all of it is equally correct all of the time. He may have made 100 speeches in which He talked about forgiveness, but if He made even one statement with an additional instruction on what is required to receive forgiveness then that additional instruction is as binding as the 100 speeches.

Absolutely not, when such isolated instruction

• goes against all atributes of God clearly taught in the other 100 speeches
• is not part of a speech that deals specifically with the topic in question

The number of the verses, the author of the verses, the context of the verses, and the specificity of the verses should be considered.
This exegetic principle is the same for all other doctrinal controversies. In case of doubt, if any interpretation leads evil against our neighbors, it should be discarded.

Forgiveness is a big issue. Jesus called us to repent. So, if we want to learn about forgiveness, we better stick to the 100 speeches, particularly if those 100 speeches are MORAL, and the interpretation of the remaining 1 is IMMORAL.

Sending a Unitarian to permanent torture because that person does not believe in the deity of Jesus is perverse and immoral. Hence, not true.

 

[Doug Brents]

The Bible does not teach that.
The concept you are expressing here has no biblical support, no rational support, no support in the real knowledge of people on the street, but what worries me the most: it is not immoral, perverse.

So, what I think is that you don't believe what you say in your heart of hearts. Otherwise, if you were truly convinced that your religion teaches such nonsense, you would have already abandoned that religion... long ago!

Nope, I believe that 100%!! Satan has a really good track record of making up believable lies that keep people from really becoming saved but still believing that they are saved.

If they expressed the fruit of the Spirit, they were saved, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for Beelzebub to fake the works of the Spirit.

That is not true either. 2 Cor 11:13-15 says, "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."
Satan can, and does, still do thing like the Angels of Light can, but he always puts a little bit of a lie in to deceive, kill, destroy, and steal.

Be careful with what you reply to this statement, Doug. Remember what the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is.
If at any time we attributed the works of the Spirit in a Jehovah Witness or a Muslim to Beelzebub, we would be committing the same blasphemy that the enemies of Christ made, when they attributed the good works of Jesus to Beelzebub.

Even evil people sometimes do that which is righteous (Rom 2:14-15), but that does not make them saved. Lost people give money to charities, they help little old ladies across streets, they attend Church services, they pray, etc. But that does not make them saved. There is only one way to be saved today, and that is to be in Christ (John 14:6, 2 Cor 5:17).

Exactly. Those who practice wickedness.
Not those who are right or wrong on complex theology elucubrations.
As you can see, the verse you are presenting goes AGAINST what you uphold.

Not at all. Everyone does wrong. Everyone has sinned and fallen short of God's perfection and glory. But those who are in Christ have had their sinfulness removed, and are no longer counted as sinful. Everyone else is still considered a practitioner of wickedness. If you are in Christ you are a new creation and the old man has passed away. But if you are not in Christ then you are still the same old sinner you have always been, no matter what you think of yourself, or what good deeds you have done.

The gospel deals with salvation of the soul, not with medical science. Otherwise Jesus would have come to the world to teach his disciples how to prevent or treat malaria, cholera, and the basics of anesthesia and antisepsia. So, the episodes of healing are recorded for us to learn about salvation of the soul.

No, the healing and miracles He did were to prove that He was from God and that His message was from God (John 3:2). His miracles were not about saving the soul of the person healed, but about proving that He was God's messenger, and that His message was truth.

Still, if you take out those healing episodes and concentrate of those of forgiveness, the persons Jesus forgave were not requested first to believe in his preexistence, deity, blood atonement or resurrection as a condition to be forgiven.
I challeng you to show us one single case in which Jesus first asked doctrinal questions and then forgave his sins.

Jesus lived His entire life under the Old Covenant. Belief in Jesus' deity was not a requirement under the Old Covenant. It was not a condition for salvation until we entered into the New Covenant after Jesus' death.

Absolutely not, when such isolated instruction

• goes against all atributes of God clearly taught in the other 100 speeches
• is not part of a speech that deals specifically with the topic in question

The number of the verses, the author of the verses, the context of the verses, and the specificity of the verses should be considered.
This exegetic principle is the same for all other doctrinal controversies. In case of doubt, if any interpretation leads evil against our neighbors, it should be discarded.

Sorry, but ALL of Scripture is one big speech from God to mankind. It is one document, and there are no errors, exceptions, contradictions, or other problems contained within it. The clear and concise is always used to define and interpret the obscure and vague. It is VERY clear that the only way to be forgiven is to be in Christ, and the only way to be in Christ is to be baptized into His death, to be clothed with Him, to be buried with Him in baptism.

Forgiveness is a big issue. Jesus called us to repent. So, if we want to learn about forgiveness, we better stick to the 100 speeches, particularly if those 100 speeches are MORAL, and the interpretation of the remaining 1 is IMMORAL.

Sending a Unitarian to permanent torture because that person does not believe in the deity of Jesus is perverse and immoral. Hence, not true.

If a unitarian believes (and I have no idea what a unitarian might believe) that Jesus is not God, then he cannot be saved. And this is not immoral in the least. Forgiveness and salvation are God's to give to whomever He chooses, and under whatever conditions He might assign. He is under no obligation to give forgiveness and salvation to anyone, for all of us are sinners and have broken His Law. But He is merciful and has given us a path back to relationship with Him if we will submit to His will, and do what He has commanded. If we will, then He has offered to forgive us, but if we won't then we remain in our sin and are condemned already.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Nope, I believe that 100%!!

If that is the case, I respectfully ask you: why haven't you run away from that religion?
It is much worse than the beliefs held by the Nazis! Please reflect on the following:

FIVE EXAMPLES OF WHY YOUR RELIGION IS MUCH WORSE THAN NAZI IDEOLOGY

1. The Nazis thought that it was fair for Jews to die in gas chambers... a torture that lasted few minutes.​

Your religion thinks that it is fair for Jews to be tortured in gas chambers (or a lake of fire)... a torture that will last forever.​

So, what is worse, Nazi ideology or your religion?​

​

2. The Nazis thought that the pain inflicted to Jews was justified on the basis of the damage they had made to society.​

Your religion thinks that the pain inflicted to Jews is justified on the basis of their theology.​

So, what is worse, Nazi ideology or your religion?​

​

3. The Nazis recognized that they, humans, who didn't claim any perfection, were the ones executing the torture.​

Your religion thinks that God, who claims to be All Powerful, Wise, Merciful and Just, is the one executing the torture.​

So, what is worse, Nazi ideology or your religion?​

​

4. The Nazis didn't claim to have received from their Führer the commandment: "Love your enemies", so it was OK if he tortured his enemies.​

Your religion claims to have received from Christ the commandment: "Love your enemies", but it is OK if Christ tortures his enemies.​

So, what is worse, Nazi ideology or your religion?​

​

5. The Nazis would be consistent with their own view, showing indifference to the hundreds of Jews killed in the hands of any other group.​

Your religion exhibits hypocrisy, worrying about the hundreds of Jews killed by Hamas, but then accepting as fair that they get tortured in a lake of fire forever.​

So, what is worse, Nazi ideology or your religion?​

I am sure that millions of Christians do not believe that Jews or Muslims or Jehovah Witnesses will burn forever in hell due to their religious beliefs. So, you can also be a Christian without believing that nonsense.

I would like to have the opinion of @Johann on these reflections.

 

[Doug Brents]

If that is the case, I respectfully ask you: why haven't you run away from that religion?

Because I do not serve the religion. I serve the God that created the Universe, and He is the one who said these things.

I am sure that millions of Christians do not believe that Jews or Muslims or Jehovah Witnesses will burn forever in hell due to their religious beliefs. So, you can also be a Christian without believing that nonsense.

It does not matter in the least what people who profess to being "Christian" believe or don't believe. What matters is what God says. He has said that anyone who dies who is not in Christ will spend eternity in Hell with Satan. Only those who are in Christ when they die (or when the world ends, whichever comes first) will spend eternity in Heaven with God. This is very clear when we read Rev 19-21.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Because I do not serve the religion. I serve the God that created the Universe, and He is the one who said these things.

The God who created the Universe never demanded belief in the deity of Jesus as a condition to be forgiven.
I'm not arguing here whether such belief is right or wrong. I'm just saying God never demanded it as a condition to be forgiven.

God revealed that He will not despise a broken heart. He will show mercy to those who show mercy. Period. No creeds attached. That's what Jesus taught not just in words, but in his actions. Not just once, but over and over.
Since you follow Jesus, you should not require from people conditions that Jesus did not require.
Otherwise, you will end demanding from people 90 new conditions.

I have known people who demand people to believe in the literal story of the creation in 6-days to be saved.
I have known people who demand people to abhor the Book of Mormon to be saved.
I have known people who demand people to stop praying to Virgin Mary to be saved.
So, once you enter that road, my friend, there is no end to the demands you can put on people, thinking they are God's demands.

At the time of Jesus, many Pharisees put on people dozens of demands not put by Moses.
In this modern times, new Pharisees put on people dozens of demands not put by Jesus.
In the case of the ancient Pharisees, those demands were ritualistic.
In the case of the modern Pharisees, those demands are dogmatic.

It does not matter in the least what people who profess to being "Christian" believe or don't believe. What matters is what God says. He has said that anyone who dies who is not in Christ will spend eternity in Hell with Satan.

One thing is "not in Christ". A very different thing is "not believing that Jesus was God", "not believing that the Bible is the only source of authority" "not believing that Christ resurrected with a physical body" "not believing in baptism", "not believing in the Trinity", "not believing in X, Y or Z"

Those are very different things and you are confusing them.
The person who is not in Christ is the person who lives a life opposed to the one lived by Christ: a life of arrogance and self-rigtheousness, a life of pleasing the flesh, a life of indifference to the needed, a loveless life.

The religious leaders who taught you that "being in Christ" meant "adhering to the right dogma about Christ" were wrong.
It is about time for you to wake up.

 

[Doug Brents]

The God who created the Universe never demanded belief in the deity of Jesus as a condition to be forgiven.
I'm not arguing here whether such belief is right or wrong. I'm just saying God never demanded it as a condition to be forgiven.

Yes, He did. If you don't believe that Jesus is God, then you don't believe in Him, and Jesus said several times that He is God. So if you don't believe that He is God, you believe Him to be a liar, and a liar cannot save you.

God revealed that He will not despise a broken heart. He will show mercy to those who show mercy. Period. No creeds attached. That's what Jesus taught not just in words, but in his actions. Not just once, but over and over.
Since you follow Jesus, you should not require from people conditions that Jesus did not require.
Otherwise, you will end demanding from people 90 new conditions.

Wrong again. A person who has a broken heart will obey Jesus' commands. If he doesn't obey, then his heart really isn't broken. There are really very few commands in the New Covenant: love God, love each other, abstain from sin. That is really all there is. But to be in the New Covenant with God, you must be in Christ. And that requires that you repent of sin (Acts 3:19), confess Jesus as your Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and be baptized in water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16) in order to receive forgiveness of sin and salvation.

I have known people who demand people to believe in the literal story of the creation in 6-days to be saved.

This is a true history of the Earth told by God through Moses. To doubt it is to count God a liar, and so disbelieve Him. He does not and cannot lie, so someone who does not believe in the Creation doesn't really believe in God.

I have known people who demand people to abhor the Book of Mormon to be saved.

The book of mormon is a false "gospel" written by a man who started his own false religion. You cannot be saved and believe in this false gospel. Anyone who believes a gospel other than the one taught by the Apostles is accursed.

I have known people who demand people to stop praying to Virgin Mary to be saved.

Mary, the mother of Jesus, was no longer a virgin about 6 weeks after Jesus was born. She is not a "Saint" any more than any other Christ follower is today (every person who is in Christ is a saint and washed free from sin). To pray to Mary (or any other human) is to put her on the same level as Jesus (who is God), and so devalue God.

So, once you enter that road, my friend, there is no end to the demands you can put on people, thinking they are God's demands.

At the time of Jesus, many Pharisees put on people dozens of demands not put by Moses.
In this modern times, new Pharisees put on people dozens of demands not put by Jesus.
In the case of the ancient Pharisees, those demands were ritualistic.
In the case of the modern Pharisees, those demands are dogmatic.

There are no other demands on man today to be saved than God put in His Scripture. And He said do not pray to anyone other than Me. He said do not worship anyone other than Me. He said do not believe any other Gospel than the one about Me. You want to allow people to be saved while doing things that He condemned. You are not God, so you have no right or power to accept what He condemns.

One thing is "not in Christ". A very different thing is "not believing that Jesus was God", "not believing that the Bible is the only source of authority" "not believing that Christ resurrected with a physical body" "not believing in baptism", "not believing in the Trinity", "not believing in X, Y or Z"

Nope, believing any of those things is disbelieving in God.

Those are very different things and you are confusing them.
The person who is not in Christ is the person who lives a life opposed to the one lived by Christ: a life of arrogance and self-rigtheousness, a life of pleasing the flesh, a life of indifference to the needed, a loveless life.

The religious leaders who taught you that "being in Christ" meant "adhering to the right dogma about Christ" were wrong.
It is about time for you to wake up.

No "religious leaders" taught me any of that. I read that in God's Scripture. God is very jealous, and He will not accept people who halfway love Him. Read His letter to the Church at Laodicea (Rev 3:14-21). He will not accept people who are lukewarm to Him.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is a true history of the Earth told by God through Moses. To doubt it is to count God a liar, and so disbelieve Him. He does not and cannot lie, so someone who does not believe in the Creation doesn't really believe in God.

Dear readers

It is obvious that brother @Doug Brents does not know the difference between "doctrinal error" and "evil".
This is extremely dangerous, because if that were true, it would mean that 99% of God's children are not only mistaken, but evil.
When we believe that some group of people is evil, then it gets very difficult to love them, respect them, and defend them.

The foolishness of the twisted theology of brother @Doug Brents leads him to believe that people who reject the literal account of Genesis of a 6-day creation "count God a liar, and so disbelieve Him". If they disbelieve Him, then cannot be saved. If cannot be saved, then it is OK for God to torture them. Nazis would never come close to the perversity that this implies.

Brother @Doug Brent believes that millions of Mormons are "accursed" because they believe the Book of Mormon is inspired.
Catholics who pray to Mary, in his view, "devaluate" God.

Our friend is willing to accumulate hundreds of requirements to those who want to avoid being burnt in hell.
Escaping from hell, in his view, requires believing 378 doctrines and rejecting 669 (numbers are just symbolic).

I would definitely know the opinion of those participating in this Forum
Will you assent to what Doug has stated?
Will you remain silent? What about you, @synergy , @civic, @Johann, @TomL, @JoshebB ?
Is it really necessary to examine what Scripture has to say about forgiveness?
If it is necessary, I will do it alone.

 

[TomL]

Dear readers

It is obvious that brother @Doug Brents does not know the difference between "doctrinal error" and "evil".
This is extremely dangerous, because if that were true, it would mean that 99% of God's children are not only mistaken, but evil.
When we believe that some group of people is evil, then it gets very difficult to love them, respect them, and defend them.

The foolishness of the twisted theology of brother @Doug Brents leads him to believe that people who reject the literal account of Genesis of a 6-day creation "count God a liar, and so disbelieve Him". If they disbelieve Him, then cannot be saved. If cannot be saved, then it is OK for God to torture them. Nazis would never come close to the perversity that this implies.

Brother @Doug Brent believes that millions of Mormons are "accursed" because they believe the Book of Mormon is inspired.
Catholics who pray to Mary, in his view, "devaluate" God.

Our friend is willing to accumulate hundreds of requirements to those who want to avoid being burnt in hell.
Escaping from hell, in his view, requires believing 378 doctrines and rejecting 669 (numbers are just symbolic).

I would definitely know the opinion of those participating in this Forum
Will you assent to what Doug has stated?
Will you remain silent? What about you, @synergy , @civic, @Johann, @TomL, @JoshebB ?
Is it really necessary to examine what Scripture has to say about forgiveness?
If it is necessary, I will do it alone.

You can examine my posts to him to ascertain for yourself

 

[Doug Brents]

Dear readers

It is obvious that brother @Doug Brents does not know the difference between "doctrinal error" and "evil".
This is extremely dangerous, because if that were true, it would mean that 99% of God's children are not only mistaken, but evil.
When we believe that some group of people is evil, then it gets very difficult to love them, respect them, and defend them.

No, it does not make it difficult to love them, respect them, or defend them. God commands us to love, respect, and defend all humanity whether they do good or evil, whether they are serving God or Satan. Anyone who is not serving God is serving Satan, there is no other option, and to serve God you must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. Just saying you are serving God does not make it so. There will be many at Judgement who believe that they were serving God, but He will tell them that He never knew them and that they were really serving Satan the whole time. They did good, the loved and served, but they were still lost and bound for Hell because they were not in Christ.

The foolishness of the twisted theology of brother @Doug Brents leads him to believe that people who reject the literal account of Genesis of a 6-day creation "count God a liar, and so disbelieve Him". If they disbelieve Him, then cannot be saved. If cannot be saved, then it is OK for God to torture them. Nazis would never come close to the perversity that this implies.

The torment of Hell is very clear in Scripture. God will not be there, and that will be the greatest torment of all: to be separated from the Creator. It is not wrong of God to cast out those of His own creation that don't love Him. As He says in Jesus' parable, a potter is perfectly within his rights to make a pot and then use it as a toilet, or to use it as a Holy ceremonial vessel. He is within his rights to crush and destroy what he made. God could send the entire population that has ever lived on Earth to Hell for eternity and it would not reduce His righteousness or Holiness.

Is it really necessary to examine what Scripture has to say about forgiveness?
If it is necessary, I will do it alone.

Yes, it is very necessary to examine what Scripture says, about forgiveness, salvation, Heaven, Hell, and many other topics. It is very important to study, and to know what God desires of us.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No, it does not make it difficult to love them, respect them, or defend them. God commands us to love, respect, and defend all humanity whether they do good or evil, whether they are serving God or Satan.

This point you make is really intriguing for me
How do you do this at work, school, within your family? Let me give you some examples of my concern.

1. If I knew that my daughter is dating a young man who is a servant of Satan, I would be extremely worried and I would tried to stop her from dating him.
2. If I knew that my kid's schoolteacher is a servant of Satan, I would take out my kid from that school as such person could try to abuse of other children, or be irresponsible in their responsibilities as a teacher, or allow children to bully each other, or try to embed in them values opposite to the values I want my kid to uphold.
3. If I knew that an applicant to a position I want to fill in my company was a servant of Satan, I would not hire that person, since that person would be dishonest, make fraud, bully and harass other coworkers, lie to the clients, etc.
4. If I knew that the manager or employer to whom I am presenting an application for work was a servant of Satan, I would immediately stop the application process. Such employer would abuse me, or ask me to do dishonest things for the company or other clients.
5. If I knew that my peers at the soccer team were servants of Satan, I would leave that soccer team immediately. Such players would start inviting me to join them at the bar and hiring prostitutes, or bribing the trainer to have a place in the first team, or bribing insiders from the rival team in order to get privileged information.
6. If I knew that my doctor is a servant of Satan, I would look for another physician. Otherwise that doctor could cheat on me, asking me to unnecessary procedures so that he could earn more money. Of perhaps, he would show up drunk at the operating room, or try to abuse my wife during a gynecological examination.
7. If I knew that my neighbor is a servant of Satan, I would kindly decline his invitation for dinner. I wouldn't feel comfortable having dinner with a man who holds opposite values and could start asking me to join him in immoral behaviors.

As you can see, one thing is to think that people are mistaken in a doctrine, and a very different thing to believe they are "servants of Satan". How could I wish to cooperate with people to make this world a better world, if I am convinced they are serving Satan?

 

[Doug Brents]

This point you make is really intriguing for me
How do you do this at work, school, within your family? Let me give you some examples of my concern.

1. If I knew that my daughter is dating a young man who is a servant of Satan, I would be extremely worried and I would tried to stop her from dating him.

Stopping her from dating him would not constitute not loving him. It would be my duty to separate them so that she might not be corrupted by his sin, but I can still do everything that I can to bring him to faith in the truth, to save him, and help them to be equally yolked in truth.

1. If I knew that my kid's schoolteacher is a servant of Satan, I would take out my kid from that school as such person could try to abuse of other children, or be irresponsible in their responsibilities as a teacher, or allow children to bully each other, or try to embed in them values opposite to the values I want my kid to uphold.

Absolutely. This is the case in American schools already. American schools teach that homosexuality is not wrong, that sex before marriage is not wrong, that all religions are equal and that there are many ways to God (but Heaven forbid you say Jesus' name in a school). My children attend a public school, but it is my responsibility to make sure that they know the truth, and are not subverted by the falsehoods taught in most schools in the US today. But again, that doesn't stop me from loving the teachers (of which my wife is one, and she does not teach these falsehoods no matter what the system tries to make her), and working to bring them to Christ, and treating them with care and compassion no matter what they try to teach. I am still called by God to be greater than their falsehoods and "kill them with kindness".

1. If I knew that an applicant to a position I want to fill in my company was a servant of Satan, I would not hire that person, since that person would be dishonest, make fraud, bully and harass other coworkers, lie to the clients, etc.

Absolutely. There is nothing that says that because I love them I have to support their bad behavior. That would make me a bad steward, and we are called to be good stewards of what God has given us.

1. If I knew that the manager or employer to whom I am presenting an application for work was a servant of Satan, I would immediately stop the application process. Such employer would abuse me, or ask me to do dishonest things for the company or other clients.

Not sure if you have seen the movie "Courageous", but in the movie (if you've seen it you will remember) the man working in the thread factory was asked to lie on the receiving invoice, saying he received more or less (I don't remember which) than was actually received. This was a test for the employee to see if he was honest. If it had been me that was being tested in that way, I would have immediately asked for a piece of paper to write my answer (No, I would not lie for him.) to his question, and then I would have asked him if this was a test. If it was a test, then my answer is on the paper I just handed him. If he really wanted me to lie for him, then I would immediately quit, no matter what financial hardship it placed my family under. I would not work for someone who actively asked me to lie for him.

1. If I knew that my peers at the soccer team were servants of Satan, I would leave that soccer team immediately. Such players would start inviting me to join them at the bar and hiring prostitutes, or bribing the trainer to have a place in the first team, or bribing insiders from the rival team in order to get privileged information.

Absolutely. We are under no obligation to associate intimately (sports teams, leagues, hobbies, work, etc.) with people who are living evil lifestyles. But again, this does not prevent us from loving them and seeking to influence them to learn about and come to worship God through Christ Jesus.

1. If I knew that my doctor is a servant of Satan, I would look for another physician. Otherwise that doctor could cheat on me, asking me to unnecessary procedures so that he could earn more money. Of perhaps, he would show up drunk at the operating room, or try to abuse my wife during a gynecological examination.

Same as those above

1. If I knew that my neighbor is a servant of Satan, I would kindly decline his invitation for dinner. I wouldn't feel comfortable having dinner with a man who holds opposite values and could start asking me to join him in immoral behaviors.

Same as those above.

As you can see, one thing is to think that people are mistaken in a doctrine, and a very different thing to believe they are "servants of Satan". How could I wish to cooperate with people to make this world a better world, if I am convinced they are serving Satan?

Everyone is serving Satan who is not in Christ. They don't have to be stealing, lying, whoring, etc. But if they have sinned even once, then they are in Satan's camp, unless they have been washed in the blood of Christ (then they are in Christ's camp). They could be living great lives, serving, caring, volunteering, being honest and leading "good" lives. But if they are in Satan's camp, then they are evil and workers of wickedness (according to Jesus' own words).

We who are in Christ are called to be like Christ, who lived His life among those who practiced evil (the tax collectors, prostitutes, and "sinners"), but did not allow their sin to rub off on Him. He caused His goodness to shine the Light on their darkness and through His love He brought them into the Light as well. We are to do the same.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thanks for your answers, @Doug Brents

So, based on the examples above, would you hire for your company a Muslim? Would you apply for a job where your line manager is a Buddhist? Would you stop your daughter from dating a Catholic? Would you leave a soccer team where the players are Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses? Would you take your children to another school if the schoolteacher was a Sikh? Would you choose another doctor if you were my patient?

 

[Doug Brents]

Thanks for your answers, @Doug Brents

So, based on the examples above, would you hire for your company a Muslim? Would you apply for a job where your line manager is a Buddhist? Would you stop your daughter from dating a Catholic? Would you leave a soccer team where the players are Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses? Would you take your children to another school if the schoolteacher was a Sikh? Would you choose another doctor if you were my patient?

Since I have taught my children the truth in Scripture, and to be influencers and guard against the influences of false religions; yes, I would keep them in those places, and I would hire those people, etc. so that we can influence them toward the truth. We cannot shine the Light of God on those in darkness if we hide ourselves away in a commune or sequester ourselves away from the world (hide our Light under a bushel, etc.). But we must constantly be on guard to prevent their falsehood from influencing us toward the darkness.

Now, if any of those made teaching their falsehood part of being involved with them and did not allow correction of their falsehood, or used their position as a way of forcing compliance with their false doctrines, or made a production of the idea that everyone involved with them was associated with their falsehoods, then I would certainly remove myself and my family from association with them. But I would still attempt to keep some form of outreach with them to shine the Light into their darkness.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Since I have taught my children the truth in Scripture, and to be influencers and guard against the influences of false religions; yes, I would keep them in those places, and I would hire those people, etc. so that we can influence them toward the truth. We cannot shine the Light of God on those in darkness if we hide ourselves away in a commune or sequester ourselves away from the world (hide our Light under a bushel, etc.). But we must constantly be on guard to prevent their falsehood from influencing us toward the darkness.

Now, if any of those made teaching their falsehood part of being involved with them and did not allow correction of their falsehood, or used their position as a way of forcing compliance with their false doctrines, or made a production of the idea that everyone involved with them was associated with their falsehoods, then I would certainly remove myself and my family from association with them. But I would still attempt to keep some form of outreach with them to shine the Light into their darkness.

Thanks for your wise reply.
So, as you can see, the fact of being Muslim, or Mormon, or Catholic, or Sikh, does not make a person servant of Satan.
In your post 33, you say you would not hire, get hired, remain within a group, keep your child at a school, if you knew that the other person was a servant of Satan.
In your post 35, you say (and you do it wisely) you would accept to hire, get hired, remain within a group, or keep your child at a school, if you knew that the other person has a different religion, unless they move to affect you or your child.

 

[Doug Brents]

Thanks for your wise reply.
So, as you can see, the fact of being Muslim, or Mormon, or Catholic, or Sikh, does not make a person servant of Satan.
In your post 33, you say you would not hire, get hired, remain within a group, keep your child at a school, if you knew that the other person was a servant of Satan.
In your post 35, you say (and you do it wisely) you would accept to hire, get hired, remain within a group, or keep your child at a school, if you knew that the other person has a different religion, unless they move to affect you or your child.

There are only two places that a person can be: God's side or Satan's side. Everyone who is on God's side is in Christ. They have been washed in the blood of Christ and are saved. Everyone who has not been washed in the blood of Christ is in Satan's camp. But not every servant of Satan is an axe murderer. Some of his servants are common, ordinary housewives going about their lives caring for their house and family. But if they are not in Christ then they are still Satan's servants.

Jesus spent most of His time on Earth around people in Satan's camp. But He was there to rescue them and bring them to His own camp, not to join them in following Satan. We too are called to be among Satan's follower, but not to become one of them, or to act like they do.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There are only two places that a person can be: God's side or Satan's side. Everyone who is on God's side is in Christ. They have been washed in the blood of Christ and are saved. Everyone who has not been washed in the blood of Christ is in Satan's camp. But not every servant of Satan is an axe murderer. Some of his servants are common, ordinary housewives going about their lives caring for their house and family. But if they are not in Christ then they are still Satan's servants.

Jesus spent most of His time on Earth around people in Satan's camp. But He was there to rescue them and bring them to His own camp, not to join them in following Satan. We too are called to be among Satan's follower, but not to become one of them, or to act like they do.

Dear Doug
Dear Readers

Not every servant of Satan is an axe murderer. But every single servant of Satan systematically hurts and damage other people with several kinds of violence.

By the same way, not every servant of Christ is an angel of God. But every single servant of Christ systematically defends other people from several kinds of violence, and acts to nurture them, heal them.

Every single person who systematically shows love to their neighbors is in Christ. It couldn't be other way... because according to Jesus, a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

When Paul says that Satan can come disguised as an angel of light, that false "light" does not refer to a transformed life. He refers to eloquence, or popularity, or wealth, or miracles, or intellectual appeal, or beauty, or political and social influence, etc.
This is the disguise of Satan. Not the fruit of the Spirit, which CANNOT be imitated.

 

[Doug Brents]

Dear Doug
Dear Readers

Not every servant of Satan is an axe murderer. But every single servant of Satan systematically hurts and damage other people with several kinds of violence.

Not necessarily. As I said, the vast majority of the lost (servants of Satan) think they are good people. They do good things, and some even think they are servants of Christ. But if they are not saved, then they are still Satan's.

By the same way, not every servant of Christ is an angel of God. But every single servant of Christ systematically defends other people from several kinds of violence, and acts to nurture them, heal them.

Correct.

Every single person who systematically shows love to their neighbors is in Christ. It couldn't be other way... because according to Jesus, a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

The key word there is systematically. Those who serve Satan can, and do, do good things. But they do not do them for the right reasons.

When Paul says that Satan can come disguised as an angel of light, that false "light" does not refer to a transformed life. He refers to eloquence, or popularity, or wealth, or miracles, or intellectual appeal, or beauty, or political and social influence, etc.
This is the disguise of Satan. Not the fruit of the Spirit, which CANNOT be imitated.

This is a perversion of what Scripture is saying. You are correct that Satan does not exhibit a transformed life. But he was an angel of Light once, and he can still imitate them. He does not produce the fruit of the Spirit, but he can imitate that fruit to the point that we humans cannot tell the difference.