What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[praise_yeshua]

The Bible is very clear on the subject...no obedience to God = no salvation

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Heb 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Not a single verse says faith only saves...not one.

Rom 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Faith begins everything relative to pleasing God.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Everything begins with faith. Without faith, there is nothing but sin. Faith to believe God forgives is essential to a living faithful relationship with God.

I have no expectation that God will refuse to forgive me. I also rely upon His mercy and longsuffering of my lack of faith. My faith is much larger now that it has ever been in my life. Yet, it is not enough without His mercy and longsuffering of my weaknesses.

Mar 9:23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.”
Mar 9:24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”

Not a single one of us can truthfully say that we have accomplished all things possible for us. Not one of us. Much greater men than us struggled with this life.

Even the faithful conquers of the past are not without us........

Heb 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
Heb 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Do Not Grow Weary
Heb 12:3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

The correction of sons never ends for us here in this life. It never ends. Confirmation of faithfulness is found in God's correction.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are verses that definitely sound like faith alone, even if we make exception.

We want to understand that faith, not legalism, is the essential element in salvation.

Everyone definitely has their own "sets of rules" they approve of or not. An faith actually requires this be keep for those who sincerely hold them. We can not act contrary to our own beliefs (right or wrong in the eyes of God) and be faithful people. First and foremost, we must be REAL.

That gets messy for us. Brokeness comes from find the end of our ways. God knows we need more of this.

 

[Seabass]

There are verses that definitely sound like faith alone, even if we make exception.

We want to understand that faith, not legalism, is the essential element in salvation.

Eph 2:8 faith saves
Acts 2:38 repentance saves
Rom 10:9-10 confession saves
1 Pet 3:21 baptism saves
Eph 2:5 grace saves
Rom 8:24 hope saves
Rev 1:4 blood of Christ saves
Heb 5:9 obedience saves

All of these things working together saves, not any one of them alone saves.

 

[Seabass]

Rom 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Faith begins everything relative to pleasing God.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Everything begins with faith. Without faith, there is nothing but sin. Faith to believe God forgives is essential to a living faithful relationship with God.

I have no expectation that God will refuse to forgive me. I also rely upon His mercy and longsuffering of my lack of faith. My faith is much larger now that it has ever been in my life. Yet, it is not enough without His mercy and longsuffering of my weaknesses.

Mar 9:23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.”
Mar 9:24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”

Not a single one of us can truthfully say that we have accomplished all things possible for us. Not one of us. Much greater men than us struggled with this life.

Even the faithful conquers of the past are not without us........

Heb 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
Heb 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Do Not Grow Weary
Heb 12:3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

The correction of sons never ends for us here in this life. It never ends. Confirmation of faithfulness is found in God's correction.

NT faith that saves is a faith that obeys God. A faith that does not move one to obey God is a dead, useless, worthless faith.....why call ye Me Lord Lord and DO NOT do the things which I I say? Lk 6 :46

I have asked this question many times to others nut get no answer. Can you show me just one example of God UNconditionally saving a person while that person CONTINUED to live in disobedience, defiance of God's will? It cannot be found for obedience is the separating line between the saved and lost...2 Thess 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

 

[praise_yeshua]

NT faith that saves is a faith that obeys God. A faith that does not move one to obey God is a dead, useless, worthless faith.....why call ye Me Lord Lord and DO NOT do the things which I I say? Lk 6 :46

I have asked this question many times to others nut get no answer. Can you show me just one example of God UNconditionally saving a person while that person CONTINUED to live in disobedience, defiance of God's will? It cannot be found for obedience is the separating line between the saved and lost...2 Thess 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

You just didn't get the answer you wanted...


Funny how you speak of obedience to the Gospel... Which is faith in Christ. Yet ignore this is exactly what was lacking in those your read in Luke 6:46.

Calling Christ Lord (confession) doesn't necessity actual belief in the heart. It is just meer compliance. People will applaud you to your face while hating your in hearts at the same time.

Many Arminians preach compliance to legalism as salvation.

 

[Dizerner]

All of these things working together saves, not any one of them alone saves.

How would you define works of the Law?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Eph 2:8 faith saves
Acts 2:38 repentance saves
Rom 10:9-10 confession saves
1 Pet 3:21 baptism saves
Eph 2:5 grace saves
Rom 8:24 hope saves
Rev 1:4 blood of Christ saves
Heb 5:9 obedience saves

All of these things working together saves, not any one of them alone saves.

There is no repentance without faith. There is no meaningfulness to baptism without faith. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Obedience to faith is what?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Would you define works of the Law?

I expressed faith when I was a child. I confessed when I was a child. I truly repented when I was around 17 years old.

The work of the law is to stop every month to the point of admitting guilt before God.

Romans 3:19

 

[Seabass]

You just didn't get the answer you wanted...


Funny how you speak of obedience to the Gospel... Which is faith in Christ. Yet ignore this is exactly what was lacking in those your read in Luke 6:46.

Calling Christ Lord (confession) doesn't necessity actual belief in the heart. It is just meer compliance. People will applaud you to your face while hating your in hearts at the same time.

Many Arminians preach compliance to legalism as salvation.

There's that word legalism that gets thrown around a lot and used in ways that go against what the Bible teaches. Can you show one example of person obeying God who was called a legalist?
Heb 5:8: Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;" According to you Christ was a legalist.
Gen 6: Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he. Noah a legalist too.

If we substitute the word "obey" with "legalist" we get in Heb 5:9 that Christ is the Savor to all them that are legalists.

I asked: can you show me just one example of God UNconditionally saving a person while that person CONTINUED to live in disobedience, defiance of God's will? You did not answer but just observed the passover on it as other faith onlyists do.

 

[Seabass]

There is no repentance without faith. There is no meaningfulness to baptism without faith. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Obedience to faith is what?

I pointed out earlier that a NT faith INCLUDES obedience as repentance and baptism. Hence a faith lacking obedience is dead, worthless, useless.

 

[Seabass]

How would you define works of the Law?

what law are you speaking of? CHrist's NT law? Moses OT law?

Rom 3:28;
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Here Paul is CONTRASTING a NT faith that can justify from works of the OT law of Moses that cannot justify.

 

[Dizerner]

from works of the OT law of Moses that cannot justify.

Why can't they justify?

 

[mailmandan]

There are verses that definitely sound like faith alone, even if we make exception.

We want to understand that faith, not legalism, is the essential element in salvation.

The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now we don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, belief/faith - "stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation." Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, baptism? Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

In regard to Acts 10:35, working righteousness is the result of having been saved through faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are the fruit of, (Philippians 1:11) not the means of obtaining salvation. God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness from a right principle, and to a right end, yet their fear of Him and working righteousness are not the origin of their acceptance; but are to be considered as descriptive of the persons, who are accepted by Him in Christ. Folks who teach salvation by works confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture (Acts 10:35) with "prescriptive" passages of scripture (Acts 10:43). Such folks do not rightly divide the word of truth. The question here is whether God's favor is made available to Jews only or is now available to Gentiles also (those in every nation who fear Him and work righteousness/does what is right) which Peter learned in his vision in Acts 10.

In regard to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? Rhetorical question. I often hear works-salvationists misinterpret this verse in their efforts to support salvation by works/works righteousness. Now only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh from an unregenerate heart in a vain attempt to obtain salvation by works. (Matthew 7:22-23) So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
In regard to Romans 6:16, works-salvationists will typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" in Romans 6:16 and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow saving faith in Christ" are "unto righteousness," hence, salvation by works.
Now there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense: servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being servants of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart (not just with the head) one believes unto righteousness.

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

 

[mailmandan]

How would you define works of the Law?

Those who teach salvation by works will often try to limit Paul's argument against works in salvation as merely specific works of the law but not works in general. Such folks will teach we are saved by "these" works (works of obedience/good works etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law) but that argument is bogus. Paul covers works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Eph 2:8 faith saves

Amen! We are saved the moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Acts 15:7-9; 26:18; Romans 3:24-28; 5:1)

Acts 2:38 repentance saves

Repentance is a "change of mind" which precedes faith. (Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. Unless we repent, we will perish (Luke 13:3) because if we don't change our mind then we will not place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and be saved. (Acts 11:17,18)

Rom 10:9-10 confession saves

The word of faith is in our mouth and heart together (Romans 10:8-10) so confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and is not a work for salvation after we believe unto righteousness. Believers confess by the Holy Spirit (with divine influence) upon conversion and after that Jesus is Lord. (1 Corinthians 12:3; 1 Thessalonians 1:5)

1 Pet 3:21 baptism saves

Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself. The eight people in the ark were saved "through" water as they were in the ark. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that only the righteous (Noah and his family) were dry and therefore safe. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished. Water baptism "follows" salvation through belief/faith. (Acts 10:43-47)

Eph 2:5 grace saves

Grace is God's part. We are saved by grace (God's unmerited favor) through faith (our part).

Rom 8:24 hope saves

Biblical hope is not some cross your fingers I hope that it does not rain next week, or I hope that I win the lottery kind of hope. Unlike the English word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

Strong's Greek: 1680. ἐλπίς (elpis) -- expectation, hope

If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

Rev 1:4 blood of Christ saves

The blood of Christ is also God's part and the object of our faith and actual means of our salvation.

Heb 5:9 obedience saves

The obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel saves. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow.

All of these things working together saves, not any one of them alone saves.

Works-salvationists don't understand what genuine believers mean by salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone. We mean that the moment we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation we are saved apart from works which follow. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) We also don't teach that we are saved by a bare profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone/barren of works. (James 2:14) Authentic faith results in producing good works so it's not alone in that sense either. (Ephesians 2:10) Genuine believers do not teach faith alone in the sense that we never repented or that the word of faith is in our heart but not in our mouth/no divine influence from the Holy Spirit or confirmation or that it was not by God's unmerited favor that we were saved through faith but merited favor or that the blood of Christ is not the object of our faith and actual means of our salvation or that we remain children of disobedience after we have been saved through faith.

*There is a reason why works-salvationists don't understand. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)

 

[Dizerner]

Those who teach salvation by works will often try to limit Paul's argument against works in salvation as merely specific works of the law but not works in general. Such folks will teach we are saved by "these" works (works of obedience/good works etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law) but that argument is bogus. Paul covers works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

I don't think the argument is hopeless at all. Although Paul leaves of "of the Law," it a few places, he uses it in more of them.

It's very clear in context that Paul is using works specifically concerning works of the Law in the context of salvation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There's that word legalism that gets thrown around a lot and used in ways that go against what the Bible teaches. Can you show one example of person obeying God who was called a legalist?

The problem you have is you're a legalist. As a "lawyer" of "Christianity", you can't see things for what they are. You always see faith solely in the context of your own efforts. It is you that began your faith and it is you that will complete your faith.

That is legalism. You live by your own standards. Vain traditions ruin any context of following God.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

We are HIS WORKMANSHIP

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not our own. You're NOT a lawyer arguing against or for the acceptance of the servants of Jesus Christ. God's approval is what matters. Arminians have long rejected these facts. They all pretend they're better than what they actually are. God gives you mercy and longsuffering just like He does me. None of us are any less or greater than one another.

Heb 5:8: Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;" According to you Christ was a legalist.

Most every translation mishandles ὑπακοή. Substitute "submission" instead of obedience and you'll understand that verse much better.

Sure. Christ submitted to suffering. You're dishonoring Christ with you false claims.

Gen 6:

Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he. Noah a legalist too.

Noah got drunk. Remember that? What did God do when Noah disobeyed? It was the faith of Noah that sustained him when he sinned. The same is true of you. Nothing different.

I asked: can you show me just one example of God UNconditionally saving a person while that person CONTINUED to live in disobedience, defiance of God's will? You did not answer but just observed the passover on it as other faith onlyists do.

You're living in defiance of God right now. Right now. One of these days you're going to realize you've been wrong for a very long time. Once you do, ask YOURSELF this question. Don't be a hypocrite.

Saints of God's sin are found throughout the Scriptures. It is why Paul wrote these words.....

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I pointed out earlier that a NT faith INCLUDES obedience as repentance and baptism. Hence a faith lacking obedience is dead, worthless, useless.

Not true at all. Faith must be first and includes nothing more than belief in God. Everything begins with faith.

You're conflating and ignoring that God works with the smallest of faith.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why can't they justify?

When a criminal keeps the law while he is being punished for his crime.....

Does that change the criminal?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't think the argument is hopeless at all. Although Paul leaves of "of the Law," it a few places, he uses it in more of them.

It's very clear in context that Paul is using works specifically concerning works of the Law in the context of salvation.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

 

[civic]

Everyone definitely has their own "sets of rules" they approve of or not. An faith actually requires this be keep for those who sincerely hold them. We can not act contrary to our own beliefs (right or wrong in the eyes of God) and be faithful people. First and foremost, we must be REAL.

That gets messy for us. Brokeness comes from find the end of our ways. God knows we need more of this.

I just like to say what Jesus said: You will know them by their fruits. A good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree bad fruit.

No fruit of the spirit in ones life no roots in the tree/vine ( Jesus ). One should have the evidence of the new man, the new creation, the new birth, new life etc.....

Thats my take in a nutshell fwiw.