Glory to the Son

[civic]

From a friend on another forum

Trinitarians position is that we glory and worship the Son in Trinity as God alone. That's it. Nothing more is added to that position. To glorify the Son is to glorify the Father and Holy Spirit. Some people believe that glorifying the Son is idolatry. Does that mean the Father is an idoliser? Thoughts? Opinions?

We read in the Bible that the Father doesn't give glory and praise to idols.

Isaiah 42:8 “I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Hebrews 1:3, Isaiah 6:3, John 12:41, 1:14, 18, 17:24).

Also,

Romans 1:21-25 ...and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. ...

But yet, the Father glorifies the Son.

2 Peter 1:17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

a). At the Son's water baptism

Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” (Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22)

b). At the Son's transfiguration

Matthew 17:5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him! (Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35)

c). Before the Son's passion

John 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 12:23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.

John 12:27-30 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine.

John 13:31-32 When he was gone, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.

John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

The Father and the Son shares glory

John 11:4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.”

John 17:10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

Revelation 5:11-13 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” Binyawmene

hope this helps !!!

 

[Aeliana]

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11

Jesus became the greatest example of a humble servant, through coming to earth in humility, living in obedience, and dying on the cross. As a result, "God has highly exalted him." In the two other places in the Bible where the phrase "highly exalted" is used, we find interesting connections. In 1 Chronicles 14:2, David's kingdom was "highly exalted." In Psalm 47:9, God Himself was "highly exalted." Jesus was highly exalted both as the coming Son of David and as the Lord.

The last phrase of this verse notes that the name of Jesus (Philippians 2:10) is a name honored and empowered above every other name on earth. This name, Yeshua in the original Hebrew, means "God saves," and was predicted before His birth. Both Mary and Joseph were told this name while Jesus was still in the womb (Luke 1:31; Matthew 1:21). He fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah by becoming the suffering servant (Isaiah 53) who would live again (1 Corinthians 15) and will one day return to reign forever. From bibleref.com

 

[civic]

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11

Jesus became the greatest example of a humble servant, through coming to earth in humility, living in obedience, and dying on the cross. As a result, "God has highly exalted him." In the two other places in the Bible where the phrase "highly exalted" is used, we find interesting connections. In 1 Chronicles 14:2, David's kingdom was "highly exalted." In Psalm 47:9, God Himself was "highly exalted." Jesus was highly exalted both as the coming Son of David and as the Lord.

The last phrase of this verse notes that the name of Jesus (Philippians 2:10) is a name honored and empowered above every other name on earth. This name, Yeshua in the original Hebrew, means "God saves," and was predicted before His birth. Both Mary and Joseph were told this name while Jesus was still in the womb (Luke 1:31; Matthew 1:21). He fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah by becoming the suffering servant (Isaiah 53) who would live again (1 Corinthians 15) and will one day return to reign forever. From bibleref.com

Amen

 

[civic]

@MatthewG what do you think about the OP ?

 

[MatthewG]

Trinitarians position is that we glory and worship the Son in Trinity as God alone. That's it. Nothing more is added to that position. To glorify the Son is to glorify the Father and Holy Spirit. Some people believe that glorifying the Son is idolatry. Does that mean the Father is an idoliser? Thoughts? Opinions?

What happened to worshipping like Yeshua taught us too? To worship His Father in spirit and in truth… He said to know the true God, and the one whom he had sent is eternal life. Yahavah is the God of Israel. The one whom had spoke His Word and his Word brought forth light, and so it was that Yahavah separated the light from the dark…

I believe Yeshua states we are to love Yahavah first, and Yeshu says we can ask for help by the Holy Spirit of Yahavah by asking, as we can ask in the name of Yeshua whom was raised from the dead by Yahavahs spirit.

 

[MatthewG]

@civic while your verses are a honorable mention, I don’t believe Yahavah is ever put under the Son, but the Son is made subject to the one whom had given him all things which Yeshua returns back to Yahavah his Father…

When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

You can grab verses from anywhere and try to make a strain for the whole three persons one God theory but that isn’t gonna work here… ya know what I mean?

I been in and through the Bible enough times to know whom to listen to closely and follow after the things which he had taught… such as concerning life eternal… to know the true God (Yahavah,) and Jesus the one whom thou has sent … not whom man deems I need to worship other than Yahavah, whom sent his Word, and we have fellowship with both of them.

We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[civic]

What happened to worshipping like Yeshua taught us too? To worship His Father in spirit and in truth… He said to know the true God, and the one whom he had sent is eternal life. Yahavah is the God of Israel. The one whom had spoke His Word and his Word brought forth light, and so it was that Yahavah separated the light from the dark…

I believe Yeshua states we are to love Yahavah first, and Yeshu says we can ask for help by the Holy Spirit of Yahavah by asking, as we can ask in the name of Yeshua whom was raised from the dead by Yahavahs spirit.

You have stated your opinion void of scripture and I will provide facts based on scripture to form a biblical opinion.

Jesus is eternal life, He is life. We see this over and over again in the Apostle Johns writings. In Him was LIFE and that LIFE was the light of man. Life of the world, the Bread of LIFE,My words are spirit and they are LIFE, I AM the way,the truth and the LIFE,The LIFE was manifested and we proclaim to you the ETERNAL Life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us- The Prologue of 1st John. So we see that when John uses the phrase True God and Eternal Life together in 1 John 5:20 that He is referring to Christ as the closest antecedent making Him the True God and Eternal Life.

Also we see that when we search the NT that Eternal Life is never used of the Father without the Son but we see that Eternal Life is used over and over with Jesus where the Father is never mentioned. This makes a solid case for Jesus in 1 John 5:20 as the True God and Eternal Life.

1 John 5:20
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may knowhim who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He(Jesus) is the true God and eternal life.


On behalf of seeing χριστος as the antecedent are the following arguments: (1) Although it is true that αληθινος θεος is not elsewhere referred to Christ, αληθεια is, and is so in Johannine literature (John 14:6).

29 Winer-Moulton, 195.
Further, αληθινος θεος is not a "constant.. epithet" as Winer supposes, being found only in John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20! (2) Christ is also said to be ζωη in John's writings John 11:25; 14:6; 1 John 1:1-2), an epithet nowhere else used of the Father. (3) The demonstrative pronoun, ουτος, in the Gospel and Epistles of John seems to be used in a theologically rich manner.30 Specifically, of the approximately seventy instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as forty- four of them (almost two-thirds of the instances) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that never is the Father the referent.For what it is worth, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω is the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. 32 The issue cannot be decided on grammar alone. But suffice it to say here that there are no grammatical reasons for denying that αληθινος θεος is descriptive of Jesus Christ.



My top 10 biblical and exegetical reasons Jesus Christ is the True God and Eternal Life.

1st- Jesus is called God in the writings of John(1:1,20:28,1 John 5:20)

2nd- Jesus is called Eternal Life over and over again in Johns writings

3rd- John opens up his epistle with the Eternal life(Jesus) that was with the Father in the beginning and was manifest to the disciples(1 John 1:1-5)

4th- John ends his epistle with Jesus who is eternal life and only is eternal life found in Him who is the true God.

5th- never is eternal life used of the Father alone. When the Father is included the Son is always mentioned together with the Father making them equal. Equality with the Father was not something Jesus needed to grasp at as He already possessed complete Deity as God.(Phil 2, Col 2:9)

6th- John would not leave his readers with any ambiguity warning them to guard themselves from idols(5:21) So this would be clear his reference was to those who reject Jesus as the true God. They are the idoloters and antichrists John writes of in his epistles.

7th- Jesus is also the True God and the True one in 1 John. Jesus is the true light which brings light to all men (John 1:9) Jesus is the truth (John 14:6)Jesus is the true vine (John 15:1). Jesus is the true witness of God (John 18:37) He who is true (Revelation 3:7) Jesus is the faithful and true witness (Revelation 3:14)Jesus is Lord God Almighty, Just and true are your ways(Revelation 15:3) Jesus is faithful and true(Revelation 19:11).

8th- [In John's writings] Of the approximately 70instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3 . . . ) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent.FWIW, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω IS the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. Wallace.

9th- Netbible- Wallace
If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to "the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us." Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

10th- This/ He (autos)Jesus Christ (the last-named Person) is the true God


Conclusion: So the most logical conclusion is that it refers to Jesus as the true God. Not only is this Wallace's conclusion from Johns usage of outos but He is the closest antecedent (most times in the NT this principal holds true). Eternal Life is never used of the Father alone in John’s writings and only a couple of times does John include the Father with the Son regarding eternal life. John opens up his epistles describing the "eternal life" who was with the Father in the beginning and then ends his epistle with eternal life identifying Jesus as the true God and eternal life. John then says this in the last verse:

1 John 5:21-Guard yourselves from idols- Now why would he leave any ambiguity in verse 20 as to the identity of the true God and eternal life then turn around commanding them to protect themselves from idolatry? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever unless John is identifying Jesus as the true God and refuting the Gnostics of his day who denied the Incarnation.This is the last of the contrasts of which the Epistle is so full. We have had light and darkness, truth and falsehood, love and hate, God and the world, Christ and Antichrist, life and death, doing righteousness and doing sin, the children of God and the children of the devil, the spirit of truth and the spirit of error, the believer untouched by the evil one and the world lying in the evil one; and now at the close we have what in that age was the ever present and pressing contrast between the true God Jesus Christ and the idols.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Here is some excellent scholarship that confirms what I said above is true. So I have my own biblical exegesis based on the text and lexicon definitions and below many theologians , linguistic experts , grammarians , scholars that confirm my last post is biblical and accurate .

This — Ουτος, he, namely, Christ, the person last mentioned; is the true God and eternal life , benson

(1) the grammatical construction favors it. Christ is the immediate antecedent of the pronoun "this" - οὗτος houtos. This would be regarded as the obvious and certain construction so far as the grammar is concerned, unless there were something in the thing affirmed which led us to seek some more remote and less obvious antecedent. No doubt would have been ever entertained on this point, if it had not been for the reluctance to admit that the Lord Jesus is the true God. If the assertion had been that "this is the true Messiah;" or that "this is the Son of God;" or that "this is he who was born of the Virgin Mary," there would have been no difficulty in the construction. I admit that his argument is not absolutely decisive; for cases do occur where a pronoun refers, not to the immediate antecedent, but to one more remote; but cases of that kind depend on the ground of necessity, and can be applied only when it would be a clear violation of the sense of the author to refer it to the immediate antecedent.

(2) this construction seems to be demanded by the adjunct which John has assigned to the phrase "the true God" - "eternal life." This is an expression which John would be likely to apply to the Lord Jesus, considered as "life," and the "source of life," and not to God as such. "How familiar is this language with John, as applied to Christ! "In him (i. e. Christ) was life, and the life was the light of people - giving life to the world - the bread of life - my words are spirit and life - I am the way, and the truth, and the life. This life (Christ) was manifested, and we have "seen it," and do testify to you, and declare the eternal life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us," 1 John 1:2." - Prof. Stuart's Letters to Dr. Channing, p. 83. There is no instance in the writings of John, in which the appellation life, and "eternal" life is bestowed upon the Father, to designate him as the author of spiritual and eternal life; and as this occurs so frequently in John's writings as applied to Christ, the laws of exegesis require that both the phrase "the true God," and "eternal life," should be applied to him.

(3) if it refers to God as such, or to the word "true" - τὸν ἀληθινόν (Θεὸν) ton alēthinon (Theon) it would be mere tautology, or a mere truism. The rendering would then be, "That we may know the true God, and we are in the true God: this is the true God, and eternal life." Can we believe that an inspired man would affirm gravely, and with so much solemnity, and as if it were a truth of so much magnitude, that the true God is the true God?

(4) this interpretation accords with what we are sure John would affirm respecting the Lord Jesus Christ. Can there be any doubt that he who said, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;" that he who said, "all things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made;" that he who recorded the declaration of the Saviour, "I and my Father are one," and the declaration of Thomas, "my Lord and my God," would apply to him the appellation "the true God!"

(5) if John did not mean to affirm this, he has made use of an expression which was liable to be misunderstood, and which, as facts have shown, would be misconstrued by the great portion of those who might read what he had written; and, moreover, an expression that would lead to the very sin against which he endeavors to guard in the next verse - the sin of substituting a creature in the place of God, and rendering to another the honor due to him. The language which he uses is just such as, according to its natural interpretation, would lead people to worship one as the true God who is not the true God, unless the Lord Jesus be divine. For these reasons, it seems to me that the fair interpretation of this passage demands that it should be understood as referring to the Lord Jesus Christ.Barnes

This is the true God—"This Jesus Christ (the last-named Person) is the true God" (identifying Him thus with the Father in His attribute, "the only true God," Joh 17:3, primarily attributed to the Father).JFB

the true God, as John 17:3, so as thereby to be drawn into union with him, and to be in him: or, which in effect is the same thing, (so entire is the oneness between the Father and the Son), we are in his Son Jesus Christ, who also
is the true God, as John 1:1, Poole

This is the true God and eternal life; that is, the Son of God, who is the immediate antecedent to the relative "this"; he is the true God, with his Father and the Spirit, in distinction from all false, fictitious, or nominal deities; and such as are only by office, or in an improper and figurative sense: Christ is truly and really God, as appears from all the perfections of deity, the fulness of the Godhead being in him; from the divine works of creation and providence being ascribed to him; and from the divine worship that is given him; as well as from the names and titles he goes by, and particularly that of Jehovah, which is incommunicable to a creature; and he is called "eternal life", because it is in him; and he is the giver of it to his people; and that itself will chiefly consist in the enjoyment and vision of him, and in conformity to him.Gill

1 John 5:20. Ἥκει) is come. Thus, ἡκω, Mark 8:3, note.—δέδωκεν, has given) that is, God: for in the preceding clause also the subject is by implication God, in this sense: God sent his own Son: and to this is referred αὐτοῦ, of Him, which presently follows.—διάνοιαν, understanding) not only knowledge, but the faculty of knowing.—τὸν ἀληθινὸν, the True One) Understand, His Son Jesus Christ: as presently afterwards. Whence it is perceived with what great majesty the Son thus entitles Himself: Revelation 3:7.—οὗτος) This, the True One, the Son of God Jesus Christ: to whom the title of Life eternal is befitting.—ζωὴ αἰώνιος, Life eternal) The beginning and the end of the Epistle are in close agreement.Bengel

The final sentence of verse 20 runs: He is the true God and eternal life. To whom does he refer? Grammatically speaking, it would normally refer to the nearest preceding subject, namely his Son Jesus Christ. If so, this would be the most unequivocal statement of the deity of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, which the champions of orthodoxy were quick to exploit against the heresy of Arius. Luther and Calvin adopted this view.[1] Stott

This is the true God—“This Jesus Christ (the last-named Person) is the true God”[2] Brown

The following factors enter into a decision: (1) The nearest antecedent is “Jesus Christ”; but sometimes when that is true, the pronoun can still refer to God, as in 1 John 2:3. (The houtos of 2 John 7, although it follows “Jesus Christ,” refers to the secessionists.) Some would treat “in His Son, Jesus Christ,” of the preceding line as a gloss, so that the nearest antecedent becomes “the One who is true” of 20c, but the well-attested Johannine pattern of sequential phrases referring to Father and Son militates against this. (2) The first predicate identifying houtos is “the true [alēthinos] God,” which is clearly a title of the Father in John 17:3. Moreover, alēthinos has just been used of the Father in 5:20c, and within two verses it would be surprising to find the author switching the title to Jesus without some explicit indication. On the other hand, after a description of the Father as “the One who is true,” it is somewhat tautological to say, “This [true One] is the true God,” whereas the author would be saying something further if he said that this Jesus Christ is the true God. (3) There is an uneasiness (sometimes unexpressed) among scholars about NT texts that call Jesus “God”—an unwarranted uneasiness, especially for the Johannine writings where that description is solidly attested (John 1:1, 18; 20:28). See my article “Does the New Testament Call Jesus God?” cited above in the Introduction, footnote 162. (4) The second predicate identifying houtos is “eternal life,” which, since it lacks the definite article, is closely joined to the first predicate—the true God who is (for us) eternal life. (Moffatt and NEB, “This is the real [true] God, this is life eternal,” are not helpful here.) This predicate fits Jesus better than it fits God. The Father possesses life in Himself (John 5:26; 6:57), even as there is life in Jesus (John 1:4; 6:57; 1 John 5:11); but “life” is not predicated of the Father as it is of Jesus (John 11:25; 14:6). If the reference here is to Jesus, then there is an inclusion with the I John Prologue (1:2): “This eternal life which was in the Father’s presence … was revealed to us.” Ignatius, who has many affinities to I John, describes Jesus as “God in man, true life in death” (Eph. 7:2), using all the predicates of 1 John 5:20e. In summary, I think the arguments clearly favor houtos as a reference to Jesus Christ.[3] Raymond Brown

οὗτος (“this one”), in its position after the phrase “in his Son Jesus Christ,” cannot refer to God, but only to Jesus Christ, although the preceding ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ (“in the true one”) can refer only to God. But if the sentence is original, it is designed to provide a rationale for the claim that we are in God, in the “true one,” because (insofar as) we are in his Son, by designating the Son himself as ἀληθινὸς θεός (“true God”). The attribution would be superfluous as a characteristic of the Father. Furthermore, it would be strange to say not only, οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινός (“this is the true one”), but ὁ ἀληθινὸς θεός (“the true God”). In addition, καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος (“and eternal life”) as a characteristic of Jesus Christ agrees with v 11*: αὕτη ἡ ζωὴ (scil. αἰώνιος) ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ ἐστιν (“this life [eternal] is in his Son”), and with 11:25*; 14:6*.39[4] Bultmann

In the conclusion of his writing, the author turns again to the central focus of faith. It is no accident that there is a parallel here to John 20:28*. As the fourth evangelist sees the culminating point of the Gospel in the disciple Thomas’s confession of the true godhead and lordship of Jesus Christ, so the author of 1 John makes clear that it is his real intention to demonstrate the reality of God’s revelation in Jesus Christ and its meaning for the Christian community. This means not only—as must certainly be acknowledged here as well, keeping in mind the conflict with the opponents—that the divine revelation is bound up with the earthly reality of Jesus Christ, the Son of God (2:22*; 4:2*: ἐν σαρκί), but also that faith in the incarnate Son of God, sent by the Father (3:8*; 4:9*; 5:9–10*), includes the confession of the earthly and heavenly existence of the Christ and the acknowledgment of Jesus Christ as preexistent (cf. 1:2–3*) and as the mediator of divine life (5:11–12*). Therefore in conclusion, and going beyond all the other christological statements in his writing, the author can triumphantly say: οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς θεὸς καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος.

This confession does not anticipate the rational conceptuality of the later confessional formula, such as is expressed in the Athanasian Creed (“perfectus deus, perfectus homo”), even though the seeds of such a development seem to exist here. Our text does not envision a christological speculation about the relationship between the divine and human person or nature, nor is the Son identical with the Father.61 Instead, what is crucial is that Jesus Christ, as the true God, is eternal life. He does not “preserve” life as if it were a possession;63 rather, in the encounter with him in faith, life is revealed in its unrestricted fullness and elusiveness.[5] strecker

---

[1] Stott, J. R. W. (1988). The Letters of John: An Introduction and Commentary (Vol. 19, p. 195). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.
[2] Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 2, p. 538). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
[3] Brown, R. E. (2008). The Epistles of John: translated, with introduction, notes, and commentary(Vol. 30, pp. 625–626). New Haven; London: Yale University Press.
[4] Bultmann, R. K. (1973). The Johannine epistles a commentary on the Johannine epistles (p. 90). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.
[5] Strecker, G., & Attridge, H. W. (1996). The Johannine letters: a commentary on 1, 2, and 3 John(pp. 211–212). Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press.

 

[MatthewG]

…

Man you continue to diminish Yeshua with your own reasoning…

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

… you continue to be avoidant…

Was Jesus not speaking the truth? Do we need to listen to @civic and his studies?

Eternal life is in knowing Yahavah, and his Son Yeshua…

Or again do we need to take your word for it??

I hate you do this crap with the scripture… it’s void of the spirit and more filled with pride in look at me… and not look at what Yeshua has stated…

 

[civic]

…

Man you continue to diminish Yeshua with your own reasoning…

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

… you continue to be avoidant…

Was Jesus not speaking the truth? Do we need to listen to @civic and his studies?

Eternal life is in knowing Yahavah, and his Son Yeshua…

Or again do we need to take your word for it??

I hate you do this crap with the scripture… it’s void of the spirit and more filled with pride in look at me… and not look at what Yeshua has stated…

I’m not avoiding anything , you are and projecting that onto me. I have given you plenty of scripture proving Jesus is YHWH/ God which you deny. Jesus said if you deny Him before men then the Father will also deny you. You are denying who He claimed to be and who the Apostles called Him- God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Jesus is the Lord in Joel, Isaiah and Jeremiah


Joel 2:27-32
27 "Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,

And that I am the Lord your God,

And there is no other;

And My people will never be put to shame.

28 " It will come about after this

That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;

And your sons and daughters will prophesy,

Your old men will dream dreams,

Your young men will see visions.

29 "Even on the male and female servants

I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,

Blood, fire and columns of smoke.

31 "The sun will be turned into darkness

And the moon into blood

Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord

Will be delivered;

For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

There will be those who escape,

As the Lord has said,

Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

Rom 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


Isa 45:21-24
Is it not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 " Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.'

Phil 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 14:10-12
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

" AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,

AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

1 Cor 2:8-9
the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

Jeremiah 17:10 the Lord says

"I the LORD search the heart, I test the mind. Even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings"

In Revelation 2:23 Jesus says
"I am He who searches the minds and hearts and I will give to each one of you according to your works"

So if Jesus is not God why would he claim to do something in Revelation that Yahweh claimed in Jeremiah?

So is it Yahweh or Jesus who searches hearts and minds?

The only name that can possibly be above all names is the name of YHWH. Even Non trinitarians are forced to agree with this one due to the fact that their own theology acknowledges that YHWH is greater in nature than Jesus. This means that Jesus shares the personal name and authority of YHWH, making Him God as no one can be equal to God except God alone.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Rev 22:13, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”

We can see here that Whoever is the Alpha/Omega also claims to be the first/last AND the beginning/end. It’s the same Person.

If we look back in Rev 1:17-18 we see the following:

“…Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”

So, the One Who is first/last (and then is also Alpha/Omega and beginning/end) is the same Person who was dead and is alive forever more. It doesn’t take a scholar to figure out Who is the One speaking here. It does take a lot of mental gymnastics to explain away something so obvious.

The term "first/last" is used 4 times in Rev. Twice it is used along with "Alpha/Omega" with the Person claiming to be "first/last" AND the "Alpha/Omega."

"Alpha/Omega" is used 4 times in Rev. Twice with "first/last" and twice with "beginning/end."

"Beginning/end" occurs 3 times: twice with "Alpha/Omega" and once with "Alpha/Omega" AND "first/last."

In all of these texts, the speaker always refers to Himself with both or all of the titles. To say, "Well, this time it's Jehovah who is the first/last, this next time it's Jesus, then later it's Jehovah again..." is the mental gymnastics to which I referred.

Is God the first/last or is Jesus the first/last? Is God the Alpha/Omega or is Jesus the Alpha/Omega? Is God the beginning/end or is Jesus the beginning/end. An obvious way to reconcile the verses is to understand that Jesus is God.

According to unitarians, it seems God claimed to be the first/last in one sense while Jesus claimed to be first/last in another sense. You seem to gloss over the blatant connection of first/last with beginning/end and Alpha/Omega. In each verse, the Speaker who claims one title also claims one or both of the others. It's all the same person.

I usually wait patiently for unitarians to reply but this point has been nagging at me so I have to comment preemptively. I really am baffled by their suggestion from other discussion in the past that “first/last” has some meaning here other than the obvious one (a title synonymous with Alpha/Omega). You even say that Alpha/Omega is never used of the Son? Incredible!! We both have said that context is king so I would like to remind other readers of the context of Rev 1:17-18 (beginning in v.10, Young’s Literal):

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, `What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'

And I did turn to see the voice that did speak with me, and having turned, I saw seven golden lamp-stands, and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, [one] like to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle, and his head and hairs white, as if white wool -- as snow, and his eyes as a flame of fire; and his feet like to fine brass, as in a furnace having been fired, and his voice as a sound of many waters, and having in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword is proceeding, and his countenance [is] as the sun shining in its might.

And when I saw him, I did fall at his feet as dead, and he placed his right hand upon me, saying to me, `Be not afraid; I am the First and the Last, and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.

Do you realize this is one scene? The Speaker identifies Himself in v. 11 as “the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last.” John turns to see who is speaking and sees “one like to a son of man” (other translations have “the Son of man”). Perhaps John is saying, "I saw someone who looked like Jesus." Then finally, in v. 17-18, the Speaker indeed identifies Himself as the One who is living and became dead and is now alive again forever.

Unitarians: I guess you identify the Alpha and Omega in v. 8 as Jehovah and v. 11 as Jesus? I guess you don’t see the term “the First and the Last” as a title equivalent to “the Alpha and Omega”? If so, you are definitely seeing something in the text that an ordinary reading doesn’t see beacuse of your bias.

It’s a title ascribed to the Almighty. I didn’t think it needed a more precise definition to be understood. What about, “the one who is and who was and who to come”? Does that need to be defined? I guess we could talk about a precise definition but I don’t think that will change my point. The Alpha/Omega is self-described as “the Almighty (1:8) AND the First/Last (22:13). The First/Last is self-described as the one who was dead and is alive forever more (1:18). Again, there are either 2 people who are the first and last OR Jesus is the Almighty.

Conclusion: Scripture declares YHWH is the First and the Last and besides Me there is no God/YHWH. Christ is YHWH.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Fred]

The following passages was quoted in the OP:

Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all who are in them, heard I saying, To Him who sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.


That Jesus receives glory in equality with the Father by the creation unto the ages of the ages is proof enough for me to believe Jesus is God.

 

[MatthewG]

I’m not avoiding anything , you are and projecting that onto me. I have given you plenty of scripture proving Jesus is YHWH/ God which you deny. Jesus said if you deny Him before men then the Father will also deny you. You are denying who He claimed to be and who the Apostles called Him- God.

hope this helps !!!

That’s not true at all.

 

[civic]

The following passages was quoted in the OP:

Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all who are in them, heard I saying, To Him who sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.


That Jesus receives glory in equality with the Father by the creation unto the ages of the ages is proof enough for me to believe Jesus is God.

Amen

 

[civic]

That’s not true at all.

Yes it is since YHWH said He will not share His glory with another. Jesus said He shares the same Glory with the Father John 17:5 and the Father shares His glory with the Son on several places in the OP. You are denying the Son of His glory

 

[MatthewG]

Yes it is since YHWH said He will not share His glory with another. Jesus said He shares the same Glory with the Father John 17:5 and the Father shares His glory with the Son on several places in the OP. You are denying the Son of His glory

What does glory have to do about, listening to Jesus and what he said to do concerning his Father? To worship Yahavah in spirit and in truth, and that his Father seeks for those who do so in faith… to have relationship with the Father and fellowship with Yahavah and his Son…

Wow, Yahavah and his Word share glories together…


”My God will use his glorious riches to give you everything you need. He will do this through Christ Jesus. Glory to our God and Father forever and ever. Amen.“
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭4‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭ERV‬‬

That doesn’t make Yeshua, His Father, but His Fathers Word made flesh…

You have no right to tell me, I’m doing something wrong when I am not… I might not be a perfect human being, but I try to go by the spirit… and as far as I’m concerned, Yahavah hasn’t pointed out to me that I’m not wrong in following suit after the Son of God, and for the beliefs that are held… I see Yahavahs Word as one together with Yahavah today, but it doesn’t make Yahavahs Word, over Yahavah himself…

We see that also in scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:28
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[civic]

What does glory have to do about, listening to Jesus and what he said to do concerning his Father? To worship Yahavah in spirit and in truth, and that his Father seeks for those who do so in faith… to have relationship with the Father and fellowship with Yahavah and his Son…

Wow, Yahavah and his Word share glories together…


”My God will use his glorious riches to give you everything you need. He will do this through Christ Jesus. Glory to our God and Father forever and ever. Amen.“
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭4‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭ERV‬‬

That doesn’t make Yeshua, His Father, but His Fathers Word made flesh…

You have no right to tell me, I’m doing something wrong when I am not… I might not be a perfect human being, but I try to go by the spirit… and as far as I’m concerned, Yahavah hasn’t pointed out to me that I’m not wrong in following suit after the Son of God, and for the beliefs that are held… I see Yahavahs Word as one together with Yahavah today, but it doesn’t make Yahavahs Word, over Yahavah himself…

We see that also in scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:28
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

It has everything to do with it and it’s the topic of this OP.

 

[MatthewG]

It has everything to do with it and it’s the topic of this OP.

I’m thankful that Yahavah and Yeshua (Yahavahs Word) share being on the throne together, which was where he was until he sat at the right hand, until overcoming all things, giving everything back to His Father, and becoming in subjection unto him, in his rightful position which he was prior to getting to sit again with his Father, Yahavah. He had to willingly give up his own life, for the sake of the Father and for the whole world. Yeshua did a lot, and he suffered temptation, struggled daily, and was always supplementing himself in the one whom gives growth… his Father, his God, Yahavah, whom had sent him.

They are a heck of a pair! Yahavah and Yahavahs Word made flesh, indwelled by the Holy Spirit of Yahavah, giving the life which was heavenly to him, by teaching him all things to do and to say, which I wonder sometimes if Yeshua does speak for himself and sometimes Yahavah is the one whom is speaking out from within Christ by the Holy Spirit of Yahavah indelling him, within that flesh which struggled with temptation, even asking the Father for the cup to pass but not his will… his Fathers was to be done in order for Yahavah in Christ to be able to reconcile all things unto himself, by and through the body of Yeshua which had become the sacrifice for sin, which Yahavah left his Son to die on the cross, and Yeshua even though crying out to his God, Yahavah, still believed in his heart his Father would come and rescue him from the depths of Sheol, just as foretold in the story of Jonah.

 

[civic]

The heresy called Kenosis refuted below

Philippians 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7

Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19;2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.

hope this helps !!!