Runningman
Well-known member
That was only for angels and it only applied to when he came into the world and they didn't worship him as God. It isn't instructional to Christians to worship Jesus.
The Lamb worshipped
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Runningman
Well-known member
Jesus is a human therefore he's a creature. How do you worship a human with a clear conscience?
Runningman
Well-known member
None of them say Jesus was worshipped as God. In those contexts Jesus is a human. Your argument is essentially that if Jesus was bowed to he's God. You don't see the error in that?
Give up @Johann
Which agrees with John 9:38.
Runningman
Well-known member
John 9:38 isn't a teaching about worshipping Jesus in spirit and truth. You might want to get your eyes checked sir.
Johann
Well-known member
It is noteworthy that Gnosticism was the first heresy regarding the nature of Christ:
a. It dates to about AD 105 when 1st, 2nd and 3rd John were written
b. The Gnostics viewed spirit as good and flesh as evil.
c. They taught that Jesus was uncreated God
d. The Gnostics taught that Jesus as God, was spirit only and did not have flesh and bones.
e. John attacks this false doctrine and calls it the antichrist:
i. "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world." (1 John 4:2–3)
ii. "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 7)
f. This proves that the apostolic view of the first century church was that Jesus was eternal, creator God become flesh in the incarnation.
3. During the Nicene era (AD 325) the great battle between those who believed Jesus was creator God, vs. Arius who taught that Jesus was a mere creature man.
a. The Nicene creed was written but it contains a huge error in that it does not acknowledge the submission of Jesus to God, or the downranking of Jesus under God. (1 Cor 15:27–28)
b. Because of this false doctrine, Arius was easily able to show the submission of Jesus to God in scripture and from about AD 350-400 Arius’ false doctrine dominated the church until the teaching was finally overturned with truth.
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The Only passages
Both the Father and Jesus are JHWH-
Qualities of Joint action and nature
Father (Yahweh)
Old Testament
Jesus Christ (Yahweh)
New Testament
Only creator
Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone
1. "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:3)
2. "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him." (John 1:10)
3. "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:6)
4. "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him." (Colossians 1:16)
5. "But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”" (Hebrews 1:8–12)
Only rock
1. Deuteronomy 32:4,12 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. ... "The Lord alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.
2. Isaiah 44:8 'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'"
1 Corinthians 10:4 all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Alone knows hearts
1 Kings 8:22-23,39 Then Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the assembly of Israel and spread out his hands toward heaven. And he said, "O Lord, the God of Israel, there is no God like Thee in heaven above or on earth beneath, who art keeping covenant and showing lovingkindness to Thy servants who walk before Thee with all their heart ... then hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place, and forgive and act and render to each according to all his ways, whose heart Thou knowest, for Thou alone dost know the hearts of all the sons of men,
1. John 2:24-25 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, and because He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man for He Himself knew what was in man.
2. Mark 2:5-8 And immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, *said to them, "Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?
Not give glory away
Isaiah 42:8 "I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.
1. Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
2. John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one
3. 1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Only saviour
1. Isaiah 43:11"I, even I, am the Lord; And there is no savior besides Me.
2. Psalm 62:2,6 He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken. ... He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be shaken.
3. Isaiah 45:21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
1. Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;
2. Mark 2:7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"
3. "“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”" (Acts 4:12)
Equal Worship!
"“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”" (Revelation 4:11)
"saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”" (Revelation 5:12)
Only worship
1. Zec 14:9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.
2. "Delight, O heavens, with him and worship him, you sons of God. Delight, O nations, with his people and prevail with him, all you angels of God. For he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will avenge and he will repay the enemies with vengeance, and he will repay those who hate, and the Lord will cleanse out the land of his people.’ ”" (Deut 32:43 LXX + Dead Sea Scroll 4Q44 + Justin Martyr, Dialogue 130)
The only name given in the NT is Jesus! YHWH (Jehovah) not found in Greek NT!
1. "“Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.”" (Matthew 2:2)
2. "And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him.”" (Matthew 2:8)
3. "After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh." (Matthew 2:11)
4. "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”" (Matthew 14:33)
5. "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him." (Matthew 28:9)
6. "When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful." (Matthew 28:17)
7. "And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy," (Luke 24:52)
8. "And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him." (John 9:38)
9. "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 1:25)
10. "And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”" (Hebrews 1:6 + Deut 32:43 LXX + Dead Sea Scroll 4Q44 + Justin Martyr, Dialogue 130)
One God
Isa 45:14 'Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.
1. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)
2. "And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”" (John 1:20)
3. "These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing." (John 1:28)
Only serve
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Jesus accepted worship on three occasions
Only forgive sins
Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Jesus forgave sins
Only pray
Only God answers prayer! We don't pray to a creature!
We have are to pray to Jesus:
1. Command: Jn 14:14; 1 Cor 1:2; Eph 5:19; Acts 8:22
2. Example: Rev 22:20, 2 Cor 12:7-9, Acts 7; Acts 8:24
3. Necessary inference: 1 Jn 5:11-15, Acts 1:24; Heb 7:25
Only wise god
Romans 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever.
Only true God
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent
Jesus is called God by John 1:1; Thomas Jn 20:28; Paul in Phil 2:6 and Heb 1:8
One God
One Lord
1. Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
2. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
3. Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
4. 1 Corinthians 8:4,6 we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. ... But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
5. Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Jesus is said to be the "ONE Lord" If ONE God rules out Jesus as being God, then ONE Lord rules out the father from being Lord.
Eph 4:4-7 (does this mean that Father is not Lord?)
Purchaser, owner, possessor of people
1 Pet 2: 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
1. Jude 4 ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master (Gr: despovthn) and Lord, Jesus Christ. ("theos" is not in the Greek)
2. 2 Pet 2:1 there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master (Gr: despovthn) who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
3. Acts 20:28 "the church of God/Lord which He purchased with His own blood." Whether God or Lord it was Jesus who did the purchasing. the NWT: "blood of his son" is a corrupt paraphrase and as the word "SON" is not in the Greek. This would make even the NWT render it "blood of his own" with Son in italics!
4. Tit 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds." Even if "great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" is rendered as the NWT: Jehovah our great God. And our saviour Jesus Christ" the balance of the verse must be applied to Jesus alone: Jesus alone gave himself for us, redeemed us, purified us AS A PEOPLE OF HIS OWN POSSESSION! So Jesus is the purchaser and possessor of all men! They are Jesus' people!
5. Rev 5:9 "for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation." Thus Jesus was the purchaser which cannot be denied in Acts 20:28
Only holy
Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
1. Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
2. Luke 4:34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.
Only good
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
You're in over your head here. This is Berean Apologetics Ministry-just a reminder in case it slipped your mind. @Runningman
J.
Already addressed in post 49.
You might want to get your head checked, sir.
You are stuck with the fact apostles and angels worshipped him
And if he accepted worship and was not God then he was a sinner and no savior
You do not believe he is God so you have no savior
Better repent of your false theology
Sorry the apostles worshiped him as well.
Those greater than you worshiped him, and he did not object to it.
Only God is to be worshiped, but you deny he is God
So you make him a blasphemer a sinner who cannot save you
Better repent before it is too late as you have no savior
Runningman
Well-known member
There are no teachings about worshipping Jesus on Scripture. The only teaching about worship is in John 4 and it says the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Jesus will never get any worship like that. He isn’t God and didn’t teach anyone to worship him.
Runningman
Well-known member
There are no verses about worshipping Jesus as God. The only teaching about worship is in John 4 and it says to worship the Father. You’ve also no doubt discovered, as you have my in other thread, there are no teachings about praying to Jesus in the Bible.
Runningman
Well-known member
Here is Jesus' teaching on who the worship. He only ever taught his followers to worship the Father. That's it.
John 4 (KJV)
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Sorry but you are still stuck with the facts
Sorry the apostles worshiped him as well.
Those greater than you worshiped him, and he did not object to it.
Only God is to be worshiped, but you deny he is God
So you make him a blasphemer a sinner who cannot save you
Better repent before it is too late as you have no savior
Yet another falsehood
John 5:16–23 (KJV 1900) — 16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
You do not equally honor the Father and the Son so you dishonor the Father
repent
Runningman
Well-known member
This passage refers to honoring the judgements of Jesus in the same way as they do his Father because the Father has committed judgement to Jesus. This has nothing to do with worship and doesn't mention worship.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Runningman
Well-known member
You seem to be getting frustrated that I will not abandon Jesus' only teaching on worship for your falsehoods. He said the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. There's nothing else Tom. What are you on about. We Christians follow the teachings of Jesus and here you are telling me to worship a human. Sorry you won't drag me down in your idolatry.
Rule 2e-Do not attack another member's character in any way. Address the post content, not the member's character, family, denominational affiliation, religion or any other subject that may be perceived as a personal attack by the Berean Board team and is not germane to the topic or post at hand.
Parker
Member
The first Modalists believed that the Father was the Person hiding behind the masks. Thus, if you removed the mask of the Son or the mask of the Holy Spirit, you would find the “Father only.” It was, thus, the Father who was incarnate in the womb of the Virgin. It was the Father who lived on earth and died for our sins. It was even the Father who descended upon Jesus as the Holy Spirit at His baptism. It was the Father who was poured out on the day of Pentecost. The Son and the Holy Spirit are only the Father manifesting Himself in different disguises, ways, or modes.
The truth is there is only one, true, living, eternal, infinite, triune Being who is God by nature and Maker of heaven and earth: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The truth is there is only one, true, living, eternal, infinite, triune Being who is God by nature and Maker of heaven and earth: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
