Pre Existence of Christ prior to the Incarnation

civic said:
Thris still has not been refuted and stands as the truth. No wonder its being avoided like the plague.
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Correct-this is irrefutable and I have the writings of Sages to prove that.
A strike also to all who hold Christ is a "created being"
J.
 
civic said:
so is being a preacher so I guess you don't listen to sermons either since its a monologue not a dialogue right.
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I’ve listened to countless numbers of sermons that were were monologue, not dialogue.

I’ve listened to countless numbers of sermons that were dialogue, not monologue.

Though my instructors frowned upon the style (I delivered monologue sermons in order to pass their classes), I was a dialogue preacher before I retired.
 
Matthias said:
There’s nothing wrong with that. If you find them profitable, I would encourage you to continue listening to them.

I’ve read more trinitarian authors and attended more trinitarian lectures than most trinitarians I’ve met at this level. I’ve asked a few trinitarian members of this forum if they have something to share which I haven’t seen before. They haven’t very often, but I appreciate the few that they have.



I‘ve found much that I’m able to agree with in the writings of trinitarian scholars.

I’m sure you must have heard me say this before but, on the off chance that you haven’t, I’ll repeat it here.

Read widely. Read deeply. Read thoughtfully. Read critically.
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Well said and sound advice brother.
Do you read the ancient rabbinical writings as well re the Two Powers? Memra-Metatron-Ha-Malack of YHVH?
 
Johann said:
Well said and sound advice brother.
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Thank you. I taught trinitarian and non-trinitarian students and I preached to trinitarian and non-trinitarian audiences. The advice was offered to them all. It’s difficult to get most people to read theology, church history in particular.

My trinitarian audiences didn’t want to read trinitarian sources, and few would even entertain the thought of reading unitarian sources. My unitarian audiences didn’t want to read unitarian sources, and few would even entertain the thought of reading trinitarian sources.

I had my hands full encouraging my audiences to read.

Johann said:
Do you read the ancient rabbinical writings as well re the Two Powers? Memra-Metatron-Ha-Malack of YHVH?
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I have.
 
Matthias said:
I have.
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Just one question brother-would you encourage Trinitarian audiences to not only study church history but rabbinical sources as well? Custom, cultures etc.

As far as I remember and I might be wrong I think you and I had a misunderstanding since I was the only member with Jewish sources and currently still doing a research on the Jewishness of our Scriptures.
Any advice-directives?

Thanks brother.
Johann.
 
Johann said:
Just one question brother-would you encourage Trinitarian audiences to not only study church history but rabbinical sources as well? Custom, cultures etc.
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Yes, I most definitely would.


Johann said:
As far as I remember and I might be wrong I think you and I had a misunderstanding since I was the only member with Jewish sources and currently still doing a research on the Jewishness of our Scriptures.
Any advice-directives?

Thanks brother.
Johann.
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My advice would be to continue doing what you’ve been doing in regard to those Jewish sources. You’re providing a good service to your readers by doing so.
 
DavP said:
Yeah, kind of. In Romans 8:18-25 when speaking of the future release of God's creation from today's state of bondage, that will include the redemption of our body Paul says in verse 23. What body? Our spirit body that everyone already has that dwells inside their flesh (see 2 Corinthians 5).
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yes ... this flesh is definitely not the body He made for us in paradise (npsh)
 
Matthias said:
This forum is a little different. While discussion is allowed, this isn’t a typical discussion forum. This is an apologetics forum. The owner is the home team and the home team is always right. There may be nuances, but the home team won the ballgame before the whistle blew to start play.
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This forum is allot different.

There is no " home team " which is why there are people from all faiths or most are represented here.

The fact is every single other forum classifies unitarians, JW's, Oneness and many others as CULTS and places them under the CULT section on their forums.

I intentionally did not do that and this aligns with our S.O.F. on this forum and our beliefs as an online apologetics community. So your statement about this forum is not true.

When I see mistreatment of non trinitarians by trins I step in and let them know abut the golden rule principle of treating others well. I cannot read every post so that is why there is a report feature underneath the post so that the moderators can address it.

But since most everyone knows me here from other forums once in a while I will jump in and remind people about our forum and why it was created in the first place and to gently remind all of us to to be adults and treat others with respect.

So there is no home team. And since when in scripture is it the majority rules ? There may be more Trinitarians here but its not the mod rules mentality here. This forum is for apologetics- know what you believe and why you believe it and defend it with the respect of others who disagree with your theology.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Matthias said:

On the Jewish-Christian Doctrine of the Pre-Existence of the Messiah on JSTOR

George A. Barton, On the Jewish-Christian Doctrine of the Pre-Existence of the Messiah, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 21, No. 1 (1902), pp. 78-91
www.jstor.org www.jstor.org

For those, like @101G, who are interested in learning about ideal preexistence.
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NONESENSE, the bible is Clear. Listen, Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."

did the seed or Shiloh, preexist, or the Person who is the SEED, or Shiloh to come exist? or preexist? answer neither. SAY WHAT? now the definition of,
EXIST: LISTEN CAREFULLY. (third person present) 1. have objective reality or being. ALERT, ALERT. now 2. be found, especially in a particular place or situation. let's break this down.
#1. "have objective reality or being". is not the OBJECTIVE of the SEED, or SHILOH, was accomplish in the beginning? answer, NO, it was to come, hence the term, "OBJECTIVE". and..... did the SEED, or SHILOH manifest in the beginning? answer, no.

now, #2. "be found, especially in a particular place or situation" was the SEED or SHILOH found at the beginning? answer, no.

so there was no preexistence of the SEED nor of SHILOH. now listen carefully, but of the PERSON who is the SEED, and the PERSON who is SHILOH, EXISTED, always. there is no preexistence with God. he is...... EXISTANCE. for the SEED and SHILOH, was to come in time. and God is all TIME. so a notion of any preexistence of God is as said, NONESENSE.

listen carefully. the PERSON, who is the SEED to Come, or the SON of God, SHILOH, PERSON who was to come, did not preexist, but the PERSON EXIST, always. understand now.

let 101G put it another way for better clarification. the Christ, or the SEED of God CREATED, or MADE NOTHING in the BEGINNING, but Jesus, who is the PERSON, that is the SEED, and Who is SHILOH, did create ALL THINGS IN THE BEGINNING.

got it now? this nonsense of God as in ideal preexistence, is just that ..... "IDEAL". preexistence that is an "OBJECTIVE" is nonsense.

101G.
 
101G said:
NONESENSE, the bible is Clear. Listen, Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."

did the seed or Shiloh, preexist, or the Person who is the SEED, or Shiloh to come exist? or preexist? answer neither. SAY WHAT? now the definition of,
EXIST: LISTEN CAREFULLY. (third person present) 1. have objective reality or being. ALERT, ALERT. now 2. be found, especially in a particular place or situation. let's break this down.
#1. "have objective reality or being". is not the OBJECTIVE of the SEED, or SHILOH, was accomplish in the beginning? answer, NO, it was to come, hence the term, "OBJECTIVE". and..... did the SEED, or SHILOH manifest in the beginning? answer, no.

now, #2. "be found, especially in a particular place or situation" was the SEED or SHILOH found at the beginning? answer, no.

so there was no preexistence of the SEED nor of SHILOH. now listen carefully, but of the PERSON who is the SEED, and the PERSON who is SHILOH, EXISTED, always. there is no preexistence with God. he is...... EXISTANCE. for the SEED and SHILOH, was to come in time. and God is all TIME. so a notion of any preexistence of God is as said, NONESENSE.

listen carefully. the PERSON, who is the SEED to Come, or the SON of God, SHILOH, PERSON who was to come, did not preexist, but the PERSON EXIST, always. understand now.

let 101G put it another way for better clarification. the Christ, or the SEED of God CREATED, or MADE NOTHING in the BEGINNING, but Jesus, who is the PERSON, that is the SEED, and Who is SHILOH, did create ALL THINGS IN THE BEGINNING.

got it now? this nonsense of God as in ideal preexistence, is just that ..... "IDEAL". preexistence that is an "OBJECTIVE" is nonsense.

101G.
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You aren’t thinking Hebraically, so I’m not at all surprised to hear you say that it is nonsense.

Reading scripture through Jewish eyes produces a much different understanding of scripture than does reading scripture through gentile eyes.

You expressed an interest in learning about ideal preexistence; a Hebraic concept. I provided you with some information about it. You obtained what you wanted, and I obtained what I wanted.

That’s a win-win proposition, no matter what you or anyone else concludes about it.
 
civic said:
The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.


hope this helps !!!
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Now back to our regular programming the irrefutable pre existence of the Son. :)

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

And

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses say that he is before all things.

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and was God- John 1:1

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in this passage.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

hope this helps !!!
 
Matthias said:
Reading scripture through Jewish eyes produces a much different understanding of scripture than does reading scripture through gentile eyes.
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I read through "GOD" Eyes. if you cannot understand the Scriptures, sorry for you.

now to prove my point, here is what you do not understand. to expose this pre-existence, learn this very one verse. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

this not only expose your pre-existence ERROR, but at the same time certify the ONE and ONLY person who EXIST, before, now, and for always.

101G.
 
101G said:
I read through "GOD" Eyes. if you cannot understand the Scriptures, sorry for you.

now to prove my point, here is what you do not understand. to expose this pre-existence, learn this very one verse. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

this not only expose your pre-existence ERROR, but at the same time certify the ONE and ONLY person who EXIST, before, now, and for always.

101G.
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Party on.

You asked me for something and I gave it to you. You’re welcome.
 
civic said, "John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God".

Good, Great, but was the Christ in the beginning with God? notice how 101G worded that...... meaning was flesh bone and blood at Genesis 1:1.

101G.
 
101G said:
well quit peddling FOOL'S Gold and have it test before you try to sell it.

101G.
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Your assessment is the problem, not the gold which you were given.

Literal preexistence -> trinitarians, binitarians, most unitarians.

You’re in with the in-crowd.

Ideal preexistence -> few unitarians.

I’m out with the in-crowd.

We all believe in preexistence. We don’t all believe in literal preexistence.
 

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