Pre Existence of Christ prior to the Incarnation

[civic]

How could Christ be tested in the wilderness if He did not pre exist His humanity?

This passage is proof He is God whom the Israelites tested in the wilderness.

1 Corinthians 10
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ,as some of them did—and were killed by snakes

 

[Wrangler]

Try sticking with the text in John with the words of the Baptist. The fact is he said Jesus existed before he was born and was born 6 months before Jesus. Those are the facts from the text in John 1. You are reading your presuppositions into the text, ie which is eisegesis

hope this helps !!!

And you are not reading your presuppositions into the text, ie which is eisegesis?

At least I can acknowledge the text allows for more than the trinitarian interpretation and accept Matthias's pre-existence dichotomy. All you did was ignore how to interpret John's text from the POV of Jeremiah 1:5.

 

[civic]

And you are not reading your presuppositions into the text, ie which is eisegesis?

At least I can acknowledge the text allows for more than the trinitarian interpretation and accept Matthias's pre-existence dichotomy. All you did was ignore how to interpret John's text from the POV of Jeremiah 1:5.

John says Jesus who was born 6 months after him existed before him. ie that’s the very definition of pre existing.

 

[Studyman]

How could Christ be tested in the wilderness if He did not pre exist His humanity?

This passage is proof He is God whom the Israelites tested in the wilderness.

1 Corinthians 10
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ,as some of them did—and were killed by snakes

Amen.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Indeed they created images of God in the likeness of earthly creatures. They created their own high days in worship of the image of God they created.

God had these things written specifically for those religious men of our time, who exist in this same world.

Truly there is no new thing under the sun.

 

[Wrangler]

John says Jesus who was born 6 months after him existed before him. ie that’s the very definition of pre existing.

You keep wanting to skirt your own Eisegesis while also ignoring Jer 2:5. Ideal or literal pre-existence is the question?

 

[civic]

Amen.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Indeed they created images of God in the likeness of earthly creatures. They created their own high days in worship of the image of God they created.

God had these things written specifically for those religious men of our time, who exist in this same world.

Truly there is no new thing under the sun.

Ditto

 

[civic]

You keep wanting to skirt your own Eisegesis while also ignoring Jer 2:5. Ideal or literal pre-existence is the question?

Nope the new interprets the old . Hermeneutics 101

 

[Wrangler]

Nope the new interprets the old . Hermeneutics 101

Not sure where you get this clap trap from. This is NOT how textual analysis is done! For instance, strict constructionism of the Constitution means the law is what it meant at the time it passed. Liberals want to interpret anew the laws whatever way they want, casting off any historical restrictions.

I guess this is where we part ways and I reject trinitarianism's attempt to revise history. I am a student of history and the old is the way to interpret the new. When Jesus is said to be the Son of God, it means he is the one Anointed by the one God of the Old Testament. The NT builds on the OT, not the other way around.

As I said Jer 1:5 applies to Jesus if it applies to anyone. Existing only in the mind of God is Scriptural and it does not mean one (Jesus) metaphysically pre-existed.

 

[3in1]

The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.


hope this helps !!!

You have given us more than enough proof that Jesus existed before the virgin birth.

 

[civic]

You have given us more than enough proof that Jesus existed before the virgin birth.

Yes its overwhelmingly in favor of the Plural God found in Scripture from cover to cover.

 

[e v e]

@e v e,
if 101G was EQUALLY Shared how many person, or Persons is 101G?

101G.

His Nature is the theme really...

He will give All the sons His nature which is of eden paradise ... restore our soul to us, the body made by Him..

the current nature is not His nature... neither loving or caring ..

personality has to do with attributes.. each son had his attribute given by God
.... totally unique...

this is what the fallen realm wanted and succeeded to steal and from which the corrupt reality (this earth and sky and astronomical system) came to be

so, how many attributes has He? and these are cared for by His sons who will give them back to God and we will have our Change


all those attributes will be in Him sharing of His nature..

and He will tell us everything that has happened and we will understand all the things that are so unclear now ...

the sons will have eternity to walk and talk with God in our eden paradise

 

[101G]

His Nature is the theme really...

good, ,,,,,, GREAT, so how Many Person is there in a SHARED NATURE of GOD? your answer Please.

101G.

 

[civic]

I like Apostle Paul's example in Hebrew 7 (penned by Luke's hand dictated by Paul, I believe).

Eventually in that chapter, Paul gets to the point that he was speaking of Lord Jesus Christ of the tribe of Juda as the Melchizedec of the Old Testament that met Abraham, and blessed him, and offered him "bread and wine".

At the end of John 8, Lord Jesus confirms to the blind Pharisees there that He is The "I AM", one of God's sacred names. Jesus admitted there that He saw Abraham also, and that Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and was glad.

ditto

 

[TomL]

Not sure where you get this clap trap from. This is NOT how textual analysis is done! For instance, strict constructionism of the Constitution means the law is what it meant at the time it passed. Liberals want to interpret anew the laws whatever way they want, casting off any historical restrictions.

I guess this is where we part ways and I reject trinitarianism's attempt to revise history. I am a student of history and the old is the way to interpret the new. When Jesus is said to be the Son of God, it means he is the one Anointed by the one God of the Old Testament. The NT builds on the OT, not the other way around.

As I said Jer 1:5 applies to Jesus if it applies to anyone. Existing only in the mind of God is Scriptural and it does not mean one (Jesus) metaphysically pre-existed.

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[civic]

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Amen how can one share the glory with the Father before creation if they did not exist. Talk about an oxymoron lol. Plus it makes Jesus out to be a liar if one denies He was together with the Father as He said before the world existed. It also makes the Apostles liars who said the same thing about His preexistence.

 

[TomL]

Amen how can one share the glory with the Father before creation if they did not exist. Talk about an oxymoron lol. Plus it makes Jesus out to be a liar if one denies He was together with the Father as He said before the world existed. It also makes the Apostles liars who said the same thing about His preexistence.

This also

Hebrews 1:8–12 (KJV 1900) — 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

 

[civic]

This also

Hebrews 1:8–12 (KJV 1900) — 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Amen one of my favorite passage proclaiming the Son is God ( YHWH ) the Creator of all things.

 

[TomL]

Amen one of my favorite passage proclaiming the Son is God ( YHWH ) the Creator of all things.

Yes

He was there in the beginning

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: