Glorification in Election

[praise_yeshua]

"There are several common misconceptions about unconditional election. First, it is important to understand that the doctrine does not teach that God’s choice is capricious or arbitrary. It is not random or made without reason. What it does teach is that God elects someone to salvation not because of something worthy God finds in that individual but because of His inscrutable, mysterious will. He makes the choice as to who will be saved for His own reasons, according to His own perfect will and for His own good pleasure (Ephesians 1:5). And while some object to the doctrine of election as being unfair, it is nevertheless based upon God’s will and it pleases God; therefore, it must be good and perfectly just."

Big problem.... Calvinism ignores the fact that BEING God's choice does not eliminate privilege. In fact, it establishes privilege. Which is why it is impossible to claim God has chosen a mere man for such purpose. Only God can fully satisfy Himself.

Do you not see the special privilege this claims for certain "men"? The statement above seeks to ignore this fact. It seeks to downplay the obvious that such beliefs establishes arrogance and boasting.

Saying it is "God's good pleasure" doesn't "sell" the position. In fact, it clearly establishes it as an self serving excuse.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Did not doesn't mean could not. But it appears you didn't read the referenced passages. Saul, David, Jesus, Paul, and I don't remember who-all.

I didn't understand what you were attempting to establish with those references.

Where does it say that God chose Saul, David, and Paul before the foundation of the world? Please provide.

I have already said that Jesus is the ONLY ONE REFERENCED as such. We are chosen in Him. Which means it is an indirect choice. You're trying to make it a direct choice.

No. There are no accidents with God. However, that fact doesn't establish your claim.

 

[makesends]

I didn't understand what you were attempting to establish with those references.

Where does it say that God chose Saul, David, and Paul before the foundation of the world? Please provide.

I have already said that Jesus is the ONLY ONE REFERENCED as such. We are chosen in Him. Which means it is an indirect choice. You're trying to make it a direct choice.

No. There are no accidents with God. However, that fact doesn't establish your claim.

Before the foundation of the world? That is when he made everything. Do you think that for God it is any different to make it so from the beginning than to do some of it and interject himself here and there from time to time? It is WE who need it to be related to time, and time's sequences.

Again, though, your demand demonstrates you considering your POV the default fact to be argued away. Not so. I'm too busy. It is just as much up to you to demonstrate that it is so.

Direct vs indirect has to do with God's causation. And even that is OUR terminology, as though there was actual substance to time sequence. It is not a matter of when God chose. "In him" is, of course, of substance. But that doesn't designate a sequence-of-time decision by God concerning us.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Before the foundation of the world? That is when he made everything.

No. God is still creating.

Do you think that for God it is any different to make it so from the beginning than to do some of it and interject himself here and there from time to time? It is WE who need it to be related to time, and time's sequences.

Nonsense. God operates within humanity. Jesus came right on time. There is a relative past to God. Our sins are PAST. To ignore this is for you to still be in your sins. To ignore this is to cause Jesus Christ to endless suffer in experience through all of Eternity. The absence of sequence (time) is an essential aspect of Divinity.

Again, though, your demand demonstrates you considering your POV the default fact to be argued away. Not so. I'm too busy. It is just as much up to you to demonstrate that it is so.

Christ is mentioned before the foundation of the world. No one else is. It doesn't take time to fabricate something that isn't there.

Direct vs indirect has to do with God's causation. And even that is OUR terminology, as though there was actual substance to time sequence. It is not a matter of when God chose. "In him" is, of course, of substance. But that doesn't designate a sequence-of-time decision by God concerning us.

You have a poor opinion of the Glory due God if you believe the evil action of murder makes God culpable because He created the substance used to create the crime with....

Is that how you live? What about the person who fabricated a baseball bat so as to facilitate the game of "baseball".... are they culpable because someone used that same bat to murder someone?

This why I've often said that Calvinism can't exist apart from 1+1 math. Once you get past 1+1.... it fails miserably.

 

[TedT]

The one is a fact, to the POV and act of God. The other implies we existed like the angels do, before the world was created.

It certainly does to me as in Ephesians 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless...
supported by Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? Berean Standard Bible

John 17:24 Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world. People claim you can love someone who doesn't exist but I wonder...

There is no verse or collection of verses which says or hints or even implies that our pre-conception existence cannot be a reality. And all the verses that hint at it as truth are passed over as foolishness without any consideration at all.

 

[TedT]

"God, before the foundation of the world, chose to make certain individuals the objects of His unmerited favor or special grace...

ImCo:

1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. Since there are elect angels we can assume that the demonic angels were passed over for election or not considered for election. Angels do not presumably have any racial solidarity, ie, they all are holy or sinful by their own choice, not by any other angel's choice. So now we have to answer the question: were some elected before or after the fall of the Satanic rebellion?

IF they were elected / chosen before the fall then there is no stated reason for the non-election of the others. Unmerited election then also means unmerited non-election, ie, for no lack of merit at all some were passed over for salvation and NOT chosen to be saved if they should ever sin.

What can we make of such a supposition? Can we say it is loving? Righteous? Just? The best we can say is HE is sovereign and if HE chose this way then who are you to argue, which is not a real answer at all. Why teach us HE is loving, righteous and just if it has no meaning in the biggest question in their existence: Why were some passed over for election!!!

[Aside:
It is entirely possible that the decision for some to receive unmerited election and others to receive unmerited rejection for election with no indication that this decision was loving, righteous or just could have precipitated the Satanic war in heaven for NOT BEING loving, righteous or just so they committed themselves to war, putting their faith in the belief that YHWH was a false god and a liar, unworthy of being their GOD.]

This is what 'unconditional' implies. It implies 'no reason', not just an 'unknown reason' because if there was a reason there would be merit by being on the side of the reason. Unconditional election means they were just as acceptable for election as everyone but did not receive it....that is what 'without merit' also means! That does NOT sound like my GOD at all. BUT IF they were passed over for an evil they did then there is merit to the election of those that were not passed over but who got the promise of election because they did not do that evil!!

BUT, if election was a response to the Satanic rebellion to reward those angels who did not rebel and to pass over those angels who did rebel and condemn them on the spot, then merit makes sense. Their rebellion to the command to put their faith in the Son and to love one another which they heard in the beginning* is the reason they were passed over to be HIS Bride. The choice by some to accept HIM as their GOD and to put their faith in in HIS Son was the reason they were elected based upon the merit of this choice to obey the commandment.

*[1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1 John 3:8 ...for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary(#27) says: “sinneth from the beginning - from the time that sin began; from the time that he became what he is, the devil.”

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us: 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. ]

Thus we probably have a precedent for election being based upon merit and proper free will decisions being the condition of being elected. And since unconditional election is false in the first people elected, I strongly suggest that it is wrongly used for sinful men who were also elected before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4, (you know: at the beginning, the time of the Satanic fall, perhaps).

 

[TedT]

God could have chosen to save all men (He certainly has the power and authority to do so),

The difference in how GOD deals with sin is not found in the severity or lack thereof of the disvalure of the sin as all sin has an equal and ultimate disvalue in GOD's sight.

It is the relationship of the sinner to GOD that changes how the sin is dealt with. The so called smallest sin by an elect puts Christ on the cross. The so called smallest sin by a reprobate puts them in hell.

The Unforgivable Sin
From my Christian pov, the unforgivable sin was the Satanic fall, their free will decision to reject by faith, that is, an unproven hope, YHWH's claims (NOT proof) to be our creator GOD and to reject the gospel of salvation from sin as found only in the Son. It contained the ideas that HE was no better than the rest of us so HE must be a liar and as a liar, a false god...just listen to atheists and pagans about their opinion of Jehovah for confirmation.

As the first liar in all of creation, HE must therefore be the most evil person in existence so they repudiated HIM, rejecting HIM from having any influence in their lives at all. Putting their faith in this idea that HE was evil and driven by a psychotic megalomania made them eternally unfit to ever be HIS Bride so they were condemned to judgement on the spot, passed over for election to salvation due to their choice.

They can't be forgiven because
1. they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD, unless the person asks for it to be changed. All free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable, apart from GOD's interference or it cannot be defined as free. This is not a rule but a matter of definition: A cannot be not A at the same time; wet cannot be dry at the same time; free to choose an unchangeable decision can't therefore be changed by another and still be considered free.

2. Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance and save themselves by changing their minds about HIM. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and became even more committed to the belief that they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god. So great is their addiction to evil that even after they learned the truth of HIS divinity and power when they saw the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes as described in Job 38:7, they could not change their minds because they loved their sin more than the truth as we learn in Roman 1:20+.

This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners, elect and reprobate, flung into the earth.

They are not unforgivable because HE hates them and their sin so much because it is worse than other sins OR for no reason at all but because when HE proclaimed his gospel of salvation to every creature created in HIS image, Colossians 1:23, calling for us to accept HIS claims or to reject HIM, HE promised us our choice would not be interfered with or changed or forced upon us without our consent, though there would be legal and natural consequences...warnings which some ignored as lies.

The choice to repudiate HIS help in saving them from the grip of sin while becoming unable to save themselves by changing their minds sealed their doom.

So the only people in hell will be the ones who put themselves outside of HIS loving grace and mercy by their own free will decision. EVERYONE who can be saved will be saved. HE wants no one to suffer eternal death, 1 Timothy 2:4, and since HE does all for HIS own pleasure but takes NO pleasure in the death of the wicked, Ezekiel 33:11, HE did NOT create them to merely go to hell!!

Everyone who is damned is a person who put themselves outside of HIS gospel salvation by their own free will decision to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god, the unforgivable sin. Damnation is by their will, not by HIS!!! That is the meaning of a true free will.

 

[TedT]

He makes the choice as to who will be saved for His own reasons, according to His own perfect will and for His own good pleasure (Ephesians 1:5).

IF HE had a reason, then that reason is the condition of their election and not fulfilling that reason is the cause of HIS passing the reprobate over for election.

A hidden reason, an untaught reason, does not imply no reason at all but the word unconditional implies all had an equal condition so as to be eligible for election to salvation but some were not chosen without any condition found in them to base this decision upon. This is what I dispute.

Please consider:
The reason for election is found in the free will decisions of people who accepted by faith HIS claims to deity and that salvation is only found by faith in the Son

The reason for reprobation is found in the rejection of HIM as a liar and a false god, forever repudiating HIM from interfering in their lives ever.

 

[TedT]

No. God is still creating.

...then HE is creating sinners, evil fallen people, some of whom are damned already, John 3:18. Is this acceptable?

 

[TedT]

Christ is mentioned before the foundation of the world. No one else is.

I'm surprised that you do not know Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? Berean Standard Bible

ALL the sons of GOD is easily accepted to mean that if you are a son of GOD then you were there, singing your heart out. Only the eisegetic commitment to a learned position which is not denied in the bible anywhere stands in the way.

 

[praise_yeshua]

...then HE is creating sinners, evil fallen people, some of whom are damned already, John 3:18. Is this acceptable?

No. We are the offspring of the union of Adam and Eve. We are in their likeness. I think you're an adult and realize how offspring are created.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm surprised that you do not know Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? Berean Standard Bible

ALL the sons of GOD is easily accepted to mean that if you are a son of GOD then you were there, singing your heart out. Only the eisegetic commitment to a learned position which is not denied in the bible anywhere stands in the way.

You're wrong. You know how I know you're wrong? The Scriptures. You need to read back just a few verses.

Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

I suppose you're one of the many cultists that believe you preexisted creation and you've been bound here for a purpose...... Your appeal is empty. You were not there. Job wasn't either.

 

[makesends]

No. God is still creating.

My point, then. Is it really any different to God?

Nonsense. God operates within humanity. Jesus came right on time. There is a relative past to God. Our sins are PAST. To ignore this is for you to still be in your sins.

Ho! Whoa there! Slow your roll there a bit!

The past is a word for OUR viewpoint. I deny none of what you said here. I have even stated that God does see what we see, which is rather obvious from the wording of much of the Bible, written to us, for us.

To ignore this is to cause Jesus Christ to endless suffer in experience through all of Eternity. The absence of sequence (time) is an essential aspect of Divinity.

I think this is just about enough. You assume you understand what I am saying, and you condemn it. You do not understand. I am not ignorant of scripture and of how it applies to us. Interestingly, though, what you just there say, contradicts your condemnation of what I say.

Christ is mentioned before the foundation of the world. No one else is. It doesn't take time to fabricate something that isn't there.

Ephesians 1: "4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

You have a poor opinion of the Glory due God if you believe the evil action of murder makes God culpable because He created the substance used to create the crime with....

Is that how you live? What about the person who fabricated a baseball bat so as to facilitate the game of "baseball".... are they culpable because someone used that same bat to murder someone?

This why I've often said that Calvinism can't exist apart from 1+1 math. Once you get past 1+1.... it fails miserably.

I would thank you to stop misrepresenting me and what I believe. I don't believe "the evil action of murder makes God culpable" at all.

Your wish to show God in a favorable light does you credit. But your need to do so by claiming things he does not, and disclaiming things he claims does you no credit. God is not ashamed of decreeing whatsoever comes to pass.

 

[makesends]

It certainly does to me as in Ephesians 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless...
supported by Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? Berean Standard Bible

John 17:24 Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world. People claim you can love someone who doesn't exist but I wonder...

There is no verse or collection of verses which says or hints or even implies that our pre-conception existence cannot be a reality. And all the verses that hint at it as truth are passed over as foolishness without any consideration at all.

I wasn't talking about pre-conception existence. It can be argued that in a sense we existed in the mind of God, whatever the mind of God is, before he created us, though I disagree, but anyway... I don't mean that God creates each of us at that moment. To my understanding, it makes no difference to God whether he started the ball rolling, or whether he pushes it continuously. It is WE who see this temporal as the only reality. To us, what happens, happens within this time that God calls a vapor, by comparison with the solid reality of his economy.

But, ironically, and sadly, I must use temporal language to communicate what the difference is!

 

[makesends]

ImCo:

1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. Since there are elect angels we can assume that the demonic angels were passed over for election or not considered for election. Angels do not presumably have any racial solidarity, ie, they all are holy or sinful by their own choice, not by any other angel's choice. So now we have to answer the question: were some elected before or after the fall of the Satanic rebellion?

IF they were elected / chosen before the fall then there is no stated reason for the non-election of the others. Unmerited election then also means unmerited non-election, ie, for no lack of merit at all some were passed over for salvation and NOT chosen to be saved if they should ever sin.

What can we make of such a supposition? Can we say it is loving? Righteous? Just? The best we can say is HE is sovereign and if HE chose this way then who are you to argue, which is not a real answer at all. Why teach us HE is loving, righteous and just if it has no meaning in the biggest question in their existence: Why were some passed over for election!!!

[Aside:
It is entirely possible that the decision for some to receive unmerited election and others to receive unmerited rejection for election with no indication that this decision was loving, righteous or just could have precipitated the Satanic war in heaven for NOT BEING loving, righteous or just so they committed themselves to war, putting their faith in the belief that YHWH was a false god and a liar, unworthy of being their GOD.]

This is what 'unconditional' implies. It implies 'no reason', not just an 'unknown reason' because if there was a reason there would be merit by being on the side of the reason. Unconditional election means they were just as acceptable for election as everyone but did not receive it....that is what 'without merit' also means! That does NOT sound like my GOD at all. BUT IF they were passed over for an evil they did then there is merit to the election of those that were not passed over but who got the promise of election because they did not do that evil!!

BUT, if election was a response to the Satanic rebellion to reward those angels who did not rebel and to pass over those angels who did rebel and condemn them on the spot, then merit makes sense. Their rebellion to the command to put their faith in the Son and to love one another which they heard in the beginning* is the reason they were passed over to be HIS Bride. The choice by some to accept HIM as their GOD and to put their faith in in HIS Son was the reason they were elected based upon the merit of this choice to obey the commandment.

*[1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1 John 3:8 ...for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary(#27) says: “sinneth from the beginning - from the time that sin began; from the time that he became what he is, the devil.”

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us: 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. ]

Thus we probably have a precedent for election being based upon merit and proper free will decisions being the condition of being elected. And since unconditional election is false in the first people elected, I strongly suggest that it is wrongly used for sinful men who were also elected before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4, (you know: at the beginning, the time of the Satanic fall, perhaps).

The discussion so far as I read it, is not about the meaning of Unconditional Election, within the acrostic TULIP. But now you have brought it up. The doctrine referred to is not that the election was not conditioned on anything, but rather, that it was not conditioned on any merit or virtue of/in the elect.


Also, it may be worth mentioning that the existence and purpose of angels is of a different sort from ours. There are two very important differences: The first being that angels are never said to be 'made in the image of God', and, in fact, at some point we will be higher (in value to God, I take it) than they. The other being that the elect angels never rebelled, and the non-elect all rebelled. Nor are there said to be any redeemed angels. I don't know if it is true or not, but the implication seems to me to be that at this point, the elect angels are not even able to disobey, and the fallen angels are not able to repent. But yes, angels, as is true of all things, exist at God's decree, and exist for God's purposes.

 

[praise_yeshua]

My point, then. Is it really any different to God?

I answered you. Yes. It is. I explained how.

Ho! Whoa there! Slow your roll there a bit!

I don't have a "roll"... I simply answered you. You don't like what I said and now you're trying to attribute the problem to me.

The past is a word for OUR viewpoint. I deny none of what you said here. I have even stated that God does see what we see, which is rather obvious from the wording of much of the Bible, written to us, for us.

No it is not. There is a past with God. You must believe that God still knows your sin when God has said He doesn't. I believe God. Such things are "past" to God. It doesn't matter how you try to explain it away.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The writer of Hebrews made mention of the remembrance of sin associated limited sacrifices.

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Do you want to know what God doesn't know... He doesn't know my sin. He doesn't know your sin. I believe what God said.

I think this is just about enough. You assume you understand what I am saying, and you condemn it. You do not understand. I am not ignorant of scripture and of how it applies to us. Interestingly, though, what you just there say, contradicts your condemnation of what I say.

I understand completely what you're saying. There is no need for "False indignation" on your part.

Ephesians 1: "4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

I don't see your name anywhere there. Why are you pretending that it applies exclusively to you? I see us. Like I said, it is like a collection of sand. All identical. All conformed to the image of Christ. YOU are not mentioned. US is mentioned. Trying to claim it applies to you while predetermining others just like you are not included is preposterous.

I would thank you to stop misrepresenting me and what I believe. I don't believe "the evil action of murder makes God culpable" at all.

You claim you don't believe it but your words create that exact scenario. What am I supposed to believe..... what your own words demand or your insistence they don't mean what they clearly establish? I can reason. I know what your words me. I do need to get your permission to deal with what your words mean.

Your wish to show God in a favorable light does you credit. But your need to do so by claiming things he does not, and disclaiming things he claims does you no credit. God is not ashamed of decreeing whatsoever comes to pass.

You don't speak for God. I have access to Him myself. I'm not beholding to your assessment. You have that same right. However, there is no reason for you to claim superiority in this. I'm simply dealing with what you've said and what your beliefs demand. You're not the first person I've heard this from. In fact, I actually would like to hear a solid argument for why I'm wrong. I would. I seek it. It matter if you believe me or not. God has the record. I want to find my mistakes.

 

[TedT]

No. We are the offspring of the union of Adam and Eve.

We are the offspring of A&E only because HE chose us to be so even if it made us corrupt. Since our conception in Adam is by HIS will, it is also by HIS will that we are created as fallen. The angels weren't created this way so why us? GOD cannot create evil nor sinners, eh, except when HE does?

I think you're an adult and realize how offspring are created.

ahhh, a deke into humour, coool.

 

[makesends]

"God, before the foundation of the world, chose to make certain individuals the objects of His unmerited favor or special grace (Mark 13:20; Ephesians 1:4-5; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8). These individuals from every tribe, tongue and nation were chosen by God for adoption, not because of anything they would do but because of His sovereign will (Romans 9:11-13; Romans 9:16; Romans 10:20; 1 Corinthians 1:27-29; 2 Timothy 1:9). God could have chosen to save all men (He certainly has the power and authority to do so), and He could have chosen to save no one (He is under no obligation to save anyone). He instead chose to save some and leave others to the consequences of their sin (Exodus 33:19; Deuteronomy 7:6-7; Romans 9:10-24; Acts 13:48; 1 Peter 2:8)."

Unconditional election - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Unconditional election - is it biblical? Are there any conditions on which God bases our election?

www.gotquestions.org

makesends said:
God could have chosen to save all men (He certainly has the power and authority to do so),

Point of order: You quote me above as if I had not quoted these words from another source. I know you meant to deal with those words, and not with who originally said them; it does matter, but no huge deal. I have inadvertently done the same, I expect.

The difference in how GOD deals with sin is not found in the severity or lack thereof of the disvalure of the sin as all sin has an equal and ultimate disvalue in GOD's sight.

It is the relationship of the sinner to GOD that changes how the sin is dealt with. The so called smallest sin by an elect puts Christ on the cross. The so called smallest sin by a reprobate puts them in hell.

The Unforgivable Sin
From my Christian pov, the unforgivable sin was the Satanic fall, their free will decision to reject by faith, that is, an unproven hope, YHWH's claims (NOT proof) to be our creator GOD and to reject the gospel of salvation from sin as found only in the Son. It contained the ideas that HE was no better than the rest of us so HE must be a liar and as a liar, a false god...just listen to atheists and pagans about their opinion of Jehovah for confirmation.

As the first liar in all of creation, HE must therefore be the most evil person in existence so they repudiated HIM, rejecting HIM from having any influence in their lives at all. Putting their faith in this idea that HE was evil and driven by a psychotic megalomania made them eternally unfit to ever be HIS Bride so they were condemned to judgement on the spot, passed over for election to salvation due to their choice.

They can't be forgiven because
1. they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD, unless the person asks for it to be changed. All free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable, apart from GOD's interference or it cannot be defined as free. This is not a rule but a matter of definition: A cannot be not A at the same time; wet cannot be dry at the same time; free to choose an unchangeable decision can't therefore be changed by another and still be considered free.

2. Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance and save themselves by changing their minds about HIM. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and became even more committed to the belief that they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god. So great is their addiction to evil that even after they learned the truth of HIS divinity and power when they saw the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes as described in Job 38:7, they could not change their minds because they loved their sin more than the truth as we learn in Roman 1:20+.

This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners, elect and reprobate, flung into the earth.

They are not unforgivable because HE hates them and their sin so much because it is worse than other sins OR for no reason at all but because when HE proclaimed his gospel of salvation to every creature created in HIS image, Colossians 1:23, calling for us to accept HIS claims or to reject HIM, HE promised us our choice would not be interfered with or changed or forced upon us without our consent, though there would be legal and natural consequences...warnings which some ignored as lies.

The choice to repudiate HIS help in saving them from the grip of sin while becoming unable to save themselves by changing their minds sealed their doom.

So the only people in hell will be the ones who put themselves outside of HIS loving grace and mercy by their own free will decision. EVERYONE who can be saved will be saved. HE wants no one to suffer eternal death, 1 Timothy 2:4, and since HE does all for HIS own pleasure but takes NO pleasure in the death of the wicked, Ezekiel 33:11, HE did NOT create them to merely go to hell!!

Everyone who is damned is a person who put themselves outside of HIS gospel salvation by their own free will decision to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god, the unforgivable sin. Damnation is by their will, not by HIS!!! That is the meaning of a true free will.

You have several interesting points, and several interesting speculations. Thanks. I don't see how anything you say, (except your assertions and unreliable assumptions), however, logically (nor scripturally) demonstrate your conclusions —indeed, your conclusions are stated in such a way that the casual reader might think that those you speak against thought, for example, that creates some merely to go to hell! I don't know of anyone who believes that. God created the reprobate for his very specific use of them, and also a general use of them —to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy (Romans 9:23). THAT is why he made them, and their reprobation is what it took to accomplish that.

But you have a point —THEY themselves also choose that, and are at enmity against him by their own will.

 

[TedT]

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

I suppose you're one of the many cultists that believe you preexisted creation and you've been bound here for a purpose......

Gee, the first hint that the many of us are being acknowledged, . You automatically think that verse 4 can only be answered by "Of course I was not there!" when in light of verse 7 it is even more likely means: "Yes, I was there singing my heart out at YOUR proof of YOUR Divinity and eternal power!"

Why do you NOT ALLOW verse 7 to provide meaning to GOD's question to himin V4?? Because a prior commitment to our being created on earth overrides all other possibilities?

Iow, commitment to one interpretation denies all other interpretations without scrutiny...
Can you read these verses as if you had never heard of our being created on earth theory?

preexisted creation

No one pre-existed their creation so this misnomer has significant theological bias... The condition of our creation before our life on earth should be called pre-earthly life or pre-conception life or existence or life before the creation of the physical universe but not our pre-existence before (our) creation.

you've been bound here for a purpose......

Yes, all the sinful elect have been sown here into mankind, Matt 13:36-39, to become holy and righteous even if it takes harsh discipline, Heb 12:5-11, so that the postponement of the judgement against those condemned already, John 3:18, can finally be fulfilled: Matt 13:27-30.

 

[TedT]

I don't know if it is true or not, but the implication seems to me to be that at this point, the elect angels are not even able to disobey, and the fallen angels are not able to repent.

This is exactly what I claimed as the best possible reason for our election and the reprobation of the satanic.

YES, the holy, elect angels chose by their free will to accept YHWH as their GOD and as their saviour from all sin. Then when they saw the proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power in the creation of the physical universe, they would never choose to sin by their free will because of this outstanding and wonderful proof of the righteousness of their choice to put their faith in HIM! AMEN AND PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY!!

Not constrained by their creation but by their allegiance to YHWH and by holy determination!