Glorification in Election

P

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Election.....

We know God will not "share" His "Glory" with another. I don't believe anyone can argue against Election involving "praise"..... "Glory".

God does NOT make "foolish" choices. Everything God does is perfect. Election is all about "God's choice". In fact, "Chosen" is actually a better English word to describe the action of God in what we theological describe in Election. Some would have you believe that preaching/teaching that God individual chose THEM before the foundation of the world gives "ALL THE GLORY" to God in "Election". Sorry.... I can't help but disagree. These people would have you believe there is no "GLORY/PRAISE" to be found in God's choice. Not true at all.

Consider....

Luke 12:27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

Notice the reference to "Glory" here. The lilly doesn't toil nor work. This is reference to God's choice in the Lilly. God's Glory "arrayed" in the Lilly. Man has no such Glory. However, God's choice is the Lilly is Glorious because God chose IT to mock the efforts of men to seek Glory in his accomplishments.

Choices impart GLORY. To what is CHOSEN. Especially God's choices. The claim that individual Election gives all the Glory to God is self defeating. God's choices involve the "array" of Glory in His choices.....

Which brings us to the Truth of Election/Choice.

God chose His Son before man was ever formed. God's Son, Jesus Christ alone HAS THE GLORY. This completely destroys the idea that God individually elected one man at the expense of another man that are identical in standing.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
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praise_yeshua said:
Election.....

We know God will not "share" His "Glory" with another. I don't believe anyone can argue against Election involving "praise"..... "Glory".

God does NOT make "foolish" choices. Everything God does is perfect. Election is all about "God's choice". In fact, "Chosen" is actually a better English word to describe the action of God in what we theological describe in Election. Some would have you believe that preaching/teaching that God individual chose THEM before the foundation of the world gives "ALL THE GLORY" to God in "Election". Sorry.... I can't help but disagree. These people would have you believe there is no "GLORY/PRAISE" to be found in God's choice. Not true at all.

Consider....

Luke 12:27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

Notice the reference to "Glory" here. The lilly doesn't toil nor work. This is reference to God's choice in the Lilly. God's Glory "arrayed" in the Lilly. Man has no such Glory. However, God's choice is the Lilly is Glorious because God chose IT to mock the efforts of men to seek Glory in his accomplishments.

Choices impart GLORY. To what is CHOSEN. Especially God's choices. The claim that individual Election gives all the Glory to God is self defeating. God's choices involve the "array" of Glory in His choices.....

Which brings us to the Truth of Election/Choice.

God chose His Son before man was ever formed. God's Son, Jesus Christ alone HAS THE GLORY. This completely destroys the idea that God individually elected one man at the expense of another man that are identical in standing.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Click to expand...
Amen election is in the Son. We are in Him when we believe not before as Ephesians makes clear. The calvinist will twist the passage to make it mean we were in Christ before creation which is not true. We are in Him when we were sealed with His spirit at conversion.
 
civic said:
Amen election is in the Son. We are in Him when we believe not before as Ephesians makes clear. The calvinist will twist the passage to make it mean we were in Christ before creation which is not true. We are in Him when we were sealed with His spirit at conversion.
Click to expand...

Seasons in God's good TIME...

To everything there is a TIME.... :)
 
praise_yeshua said:
Seasons in God's good TIME...

To everything there is a TIME.... :)
Click to expand...
do you like the song by the Byrds ?

To everything turn, turn, turn
There is a season turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under Heaven
A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
A time to laugh, a time to weep
To everything turn, turn, turn
There is a season turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under Heaven
A time to buid up, a time to break down
A time to dance, a time to mourn
A time to cast away stones
A time to gather stones together
To everything turn, turn, turn
There is a season turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under Heaven
A time of love, a time of hate
A time of war, a time of peace
A time you may embrace
A time to refrain from embracing
To everything turn, turn, turn
There is a season turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under Heaven
A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rain, a time of sow
A time for love, a time for hate
A time for peace, I swear it's not too late
 
civic said:
Amen election is in the Son. We are in Him when we believe not before as Ephesians makes clear. The calvinist will twist the passage to make it mean we were in Christ before creation which is not true. We are in Him when we were sealed with His spirit at conversion.
Click to expand...
Be careful that is not a logical extrapolation of what a Calvinist says, rather than what the Calvinist means, as you claim.
 
makesends said:
The one is a fact, to the POV and act of God. The other implies we existed like the angels do, before the world was created.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you recognize the "in Him" distinction. Why do you then reject Corporate Election?

Hyper Calvinism does teach that individuals are "as good as" redeemed before the foundation of the world. Thusly, these same "individuals" benefit from such a selection.

Does not "Chosen" mean something to you?

As far as "angels", I asked for a practical application not a literal applications.
 
praise_yeshua said:
I'm glad you recognize the "in Him" distinction. Why do you then reject Corporate Election?

Hyper Calvinism does teach that individuals are "as good as" redeemed before the foundation of the world. Thusly, these same "individuals" benefit from such a selection.

Does not "Chosen" mean something to you?

As far as "angels", I asked for a practical application not a literal applications.
Click to expand...
Why do you assume I reject Corporate Election? I only reject the notion that Corporate Election and Individual Election are mutually exclusive. I don't even consider myself a Calvinist, as such, nevermind a hyper-Calvinist. In some ways, I think Calvinism and Reformed Theology don't go far enough, but that doesn't make me a hyper-Calvinist. But Calvinists and hyper-Calvinists come in so many flavors and mindsets that I wonder how anyone can narrow down exactly what one is. Some people even claim that Arminians are Calvinists.

I have talked with several who seem very stunted on the idea of God's causation: they believe in freewill of the same sort as the Arminians, except in the monergism of Salvation. And even that some seem a little fuzzy on.

But, whatever, I think "'as good as' redeemed before the foundation of the world" skates too close to what at least one cult teaches —that we were pre-existent to the general creation. As a parallel, I have heard the claim that once a man and woman are engaged, that by that promise they are "as good as" married in God's eyes. Well, the 'consummation' of Christ with his Bride does not take place until the wedding supper of the Lamb. We are not in Heaven until we are in Heaven.

"Already, but not yet"
 
makesends said:
Why do you assume I reject Corporate Election? I only reject the notion that Corporate Election and Individual Election are mutually exclusive. I don't even consider myself a Calvinist, as such, nevermind a hyper-Calvinist.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the confusion on my part.

It has long been my position that if Individual election were true, that God would have named someone chosen from the foundation of the world. Which.... He did. In Isa 42, Christ is referenced as "My Chosen". Peter made it clear when Christ was chosen. We only have our identity in Him. We do have a new name but it isn't from God's predeterminate choice in us. It was God's predeterminate choice in Christ.

makesends said:
In some ways, I think Calvinism and Reformed Theology don't go far enough, but that doesn't make me a hyper-Calvinist. But Calvinists and hyper-Calvinists come in so many flavors and mindsets that I wonder how anyone can narrow down exactly what one is. Some people even claim that Arminians are Calvinists.
Click to expand...

I agree completely.

makesends said:
I have talked with several who seem very stunted on the idea of God's causation: they believe in freewill of the same sort as the Arminians, except in the monergism of Salvation. And even that some seem a little fuzzy on.

But, whatever, I think "'as good as' redeemed before the foundation of the world" skates too close to what at least one cult teaches —that we were pre-existent to the general creation. As a parallel, I have heard the claim that once a man and woman are engaged, that by that promise they are "as good as" married in God's eyes. Well, the 'consummation' of Christ with his Bride does not take place until the wedding supper of the Lamb. We are not in Heaven until we are in Heaven.

"Already, but not yet"
Click to expand...

I agree. I took it you were coming at this from a Calvinism perspective. My mistake.
 
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praise_yeshua said:
Sorry for the confusion on my part.

It has long been my position that if Individual election were true, that God would have named someone chosen from the foundation of the world. Which.... He did. In Isa 42, Christ is referenced as "My Chosen". Peter made it clear when Christ was chosen. We only have our identity in Him. We do have a new name but it isn't from God's predeterminate choice in us. It was God's predeterminate choice in Christ.



I agree completely.



I agree. I took it you were coming at this from a Calvinism perspective. My mistake.
Click to expand...
Don't be too sure I'm not (coming at this from a Calvinism perspective) !
 
makesends said:
Don't be too sure I'm not (coming at this from a Calvinism perspective) !
Click to expand...

Perspective is essential to any meaningful discussion. We often argue over things that don't really matter. We often argue "past one another" because our focus on the current conversation requires a clearly defined perspective.

If you actually believe in individual election then name someone that God predetermined "by name" for election. For perspective......

Jesus declared that God is the God of "Abraham, Isaac and Jacob". However, those individuals have no context of predetermination from the Scriptures. You might would like to see them as being predetermined but there is ZERO evidence that they were. Even if you try to say that a group is comprised of individuals, you must still adequately deal with the absence of named individuals. Given the evidence, we only see an unnamed group of individuals. A "collective". The Scriptures do not establish what is taught by Calvinism concerning individual election. Calvinism has struggled with adequately dealing with this fact for some time now. There responses are empty and meaningless. Maybe you can change that?
 
praise_yeshua said:
Perspective is essential to any meaningful discussion. We often argue over things that don't really matter. We often argue "past one another" because our focus on the current conversation requires a clearly defined perspective.

If you actually believe in individual election then name someone that God predetermined "by name" for election. For perspective......

Jesus declared that God is the God of "Abraham, Isaac and Jacob". However, those individuals have no context of predetermination from the Scriptures. You might would like to see them as being predetermined but there is ZERO evidence that they were. Even if you try to say that a group is comprised of individuals, you must still adequately deal with the absence of named individuals. Given the evidence, we only see an unnamed group of individuals. A "collective". The Scriptures do not establish what is taught by Calvinism concerning individual election. Calvinism has struggled with adequately dealing with this fact for some time now. There responses are empty and meaningless. Maybe you can change that?
Click to expand...
You say, "Calvinism has struggled with adequately dealing with this fact for some time now." I expect you mean, in your experience, you haven't seen them demonstrate individual election adequately from Scripture.

First off, I would have you note that to turn every mention of God's choosing into corporate election alone, is by need, not by merely reading. I happily embrace corporate election, and I wish that Americans, in particular, would get rid of the mindset that the individual is all that matters. But that corporate election of necessity involves the particular election of the individuals within it, is so obvious to me, that I wonder how anyone can deny it! I can only suppose that they miss it completely by a self-deterministic mindset, or that they need individual election to be false to accommodate some other related concept, doctrine or mindset.

That several mentions of God's chosen are about Kings and leaders, to me does nothing to prove corporate election alone. In spite of their position, they were individuals. The Bible spends quite a lot of time talking about them, because they were the kings and leaders, not because they were not individuals.

“Whatever may be said about the doctrine of election, it is written in the Word of God as with an iron pen, and there is no getting rid of it. To me, it is one of the sweetest and most blessed truths in the whole of revelation, and those who are afraid of it are so because they do not understand it. If they could but know that the Lord had chosen them, it would make their hearts dance for joy.” – Charles Spurgeon

But I see this is growing long already; nobody will want to read a full treatise on the subject, though I offer this easy read, by a guy who in one place in the article pits his view against historic Reformed/ Lutheranism:
https://prussic.wordpress.com/2011/03/07/individual-election-is-biblical/


2 Samuel 21:6; 1 Chronicles 16:13; Psalm 89:3; Psalm 106:23; Isaiah 42:1; Galatians 1:15-16; Romans 8:29-30; Jeremiah 1:4-5; Isaiah 43:1; Ephesians 1:3-4; John 15:16; Romans 8:28; and I don't know how anyone can deny that Romans 9 deals with individuals as well as corporate Israel. Also, I have to say that if Corporate Election is the only election, then Corporate Salvation is the only Salvation. But if you can prove that individuals are saved by mere accident, then have at it. I would likely enjoy the debate until it got tedious.
 
"God, before the foundation of the world, chose to make certain individuals the objects of His unmerited favor or special grace (Mark 13:20; Ephesians 1:4-5; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8). These individuals from every tribe, tongue and nation were chosen by God for adoption, not because of anything they would do but because of His sovereign will (Romans 9:11-13; Romans 9:16; Romans 10:20; 1 Corinthians 1:27-29; 2 Timothy 1:9). God could have chosen to save all men (He certainly has the power and authority to do so), and He could have chosen to save no one (He is under no obligation to save anyone). He instead chose to save some and leave others to the consequences of their sin (Exodus 33:19; Deuteronomy 7:6-7; Romans 9:10-24; Acts 13:48; 1 Peter 2:8)."

www.gotquestions.org

Unconditional election - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Unconditional election - is it biblical? Are there any conditions on which God bases our election?
www.gotquestions.org
 
makesends said:
"God, before the foundation of the world, chose to make certain individuals the objects of His unmerited favor or special grace (Mark 13:20; Ephesians 1:4-5; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8). These individuals from every tribe, tongue and nation were chosen by God for adoption, not because of anything they would do but because of His sovereign will (Romans 9:11-13; Romans 9:16; Romans 10:20; 1 Corinthians 1:27-29; 2 Timothy 1:9). God could have chosen to save all men (He certainly has the power and authority to do so), and He could have chosen to save no one (He is under no obligation to save anyone). He instead chose to save some and leave others to the consequences of their sin (Exodus 33:19; Deuteronomy 7:6-7; Romans 9:10-24; Acts 13:48; 1 Peter 2:8)."

www.gotquestions.org

Unconditional election - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Unconditional election - is it biblical? Are there any conditions on which God bases our election?
www.gotquestions.org
Click to expand...

"There are several common misconceptions about unconditional election. First, it is important to understand that the doctrine does not teach that God’s choice is capricious or arbitrary. It is not random or made without reason. What it does teach is that God elects someone to salvation not because of something worthy God finds in that individual but because of His inscrutable, mysterious will. He makes the choice as to who will be saved for His own reasons, according to His own perfect will and for His own good pleasure (Ephesians 1:5). And while some object to the doctrine of election as being unfair, it is nevertheless based upon God’s will and it pleases God; therefore, it must be good and perfectly just."
 
civic said:
Amen election is in the Son. We are in Him when we believe not before as Ephesians makes clear. The calvinist will twist the passage to make it mean we were in Christ before creation which is not true. We are in Him when we were sealed with His spirit at conversion.
Click to expand...
Ephesians does not say that/why do you? Eph does not start at verse 13, and go back down to vs.3...you have it backwards
 
makesends said:
You say, "Calvinism has struggled with adequately dealing with this fact for some time now." I expect you mean, in your experience, you haven't seen them demonstrate individual election adequately from Scripture.

First off, I would have you note that to turn every mention of God's choosing into corporate election alone, is by need, not by merely reading. I happily embrace corporate election, and I wish that Americans, in particular, would get rid of the mindset that the individual is all that matters. But that corporate election of necessity involves the particular election of the individuals within it, is so obvious to me, that I wonder how anyone can deny it! I can only suppose that they miss it completely by a self-deterministic mindset, or that they need individual election to be false to accommodate some other related concept, doctrine or mindset.

That several mentions of God's chosen are about Kings and leaders, to me does nothing to prove corporate election alone. In spite of their position, they were individuals. The Bible spends quite a lot of time talking about them, because they were the kings and leaders, not because they were not individuals.

“Whatever may be said about the doctrine of election, it is written in the Word of God as with an iron pen, and there is no getting rid of it. To me, it is one of the sweetest and most blessed truths in the whole of revelation, and those who are afraid of it are so because they do not understand it. If they could but know that the Lord had chosen them, it would make their hearts dance for joy.” – Charles Spurgeon

But I see this is growing long already; nobody will want to read a full treatise on the subject, though I offer this easy read, by a guy who in one place in the article pits his view against historic Reformed/ Lutheranism:
https://prussic.wordpress.com/2011/03/07/individual-election-is-biblical/


2 Samuel 21:6; 1 Chronicles 16:13; Psalm 89:3; Psalm 106:23; Isaiah 42:1; Galatians 1:15-16; Romans 8:29-30; Jeremiah 1:4-5; Isaiah 43:1; Ephesians 1:3-4; John 15:16; Romans 8:28; and I don't know how anyone can deny that Romans 9 deals with individuals as well as corporate Israel. Also, I have to say that if Corporate Election is the only election, then Corporate Salvation is the only Salvation. But if you can prove that individuals are saved by mere accident, then have at it. I would likely enjoy the debate until it got tedious.
Click to expand...
I know the works of Spurgeon well. I know that he is an inconsistent Calvinist. So much so that there are many that both accept and reject him as a reformed theologian. He was never a Reformed Baptist.

Individual election ranks individual men above Christ in the purpose of Election. I asked for a name. Name one of these individuals chosen for salvation that then directed the means of Jesus Christ for redemption for themselves. Election is self satisfying to God. Your inability to name someone purposed by God for election shows your inability to establish you premise. Corporate Election is like a collection of water or the grains of sand within the desert. There are no individual identities. All are confirmed to a distinct and shared image. Jesus Christ.
 
praise_yeshua said:
I know the works of Spurgeon well. I know that he is an inconsistent Calvinist. So much so that there are many that both accept and reject him as a reformed theologian. He was never a Reformed Baptist.

Individual election ranks individual men above Christ in the purpose of Election. I asked for a name. Name one of these individuals chosen for salvation that then directed the means of Jesus Christ for redemption for themselves. Election is self satisfying to God. Your inability to name someone purposed by God for election shows your inability to establish you premise. Corporate Election is like a collection of water or the grains of sand within the desert. There are no individual identities. All are confirmed to a distinct and shared image. Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Did not doesn't mean could not. But it appears you didn't read the referenced passages. Saul, David, Jesus, Paul, and I don't remember who-all.
 

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