Free-willer Straw Man Argument

[The Rogue Tomato]

My reply is that I did choose the truth of the Bible by first throwing all pagan calvinist presuppositions out the window. And I'm very glad I did.

You, on the other hand, choose to wallow in the cesspool of wacky logic and dirt poor reading skills. Reminds me of the Prodigal Son parable. May you come to your senses.

That's pretty much how we think of what we did; choose the truth of the Bible by first throwing out all pagan man-centered free-will soteriology. And we're very glad we did.

You, on the other hand, choose to wallow in the man-centered cesspool of wacky logic and dirt poor exegesis. Not sure there's anything more pagan and man-centered than trying to take some credit for your salvation by saying God chose you because you chose God.

I don't expect you to come to your senses. It's a God thing - a Spiritual thing, not a human "logical senses" thing.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Amen! Well said

Thanks. But there will be some here who want to put words in my mouth or control my keyboard to add things I've never said.

 

[civic]

Amen! Well said

do you still sin ? yes or no

who is your master ?

 

[TomL]

Nope. Belief is granted by God. It's a means to a end . "through belief"

Nope. It says specifically He choose "you", individuals, not things. When? From the foundation of the works. How is that possible? They did not exist.

To grant does not mean to effectually cause or infuse as your theology teaches

But Who mentioned things?

Believers are not things

And being in Christ because you trusted in him is clearly not unconditional

as was not noted, nothing at all is stated about unconditional election to salvation

 

[Presby02]

another fallacious argument. questions are not apologetics deal with the text.

Were they with John when He wrote ? Can you see the WE/ US which mean the Apostles ?

Who saw, heard, felt, touched,looked upon, handled ?

The Apostles or Johns readers ?

1 John
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

conclusion: you have been refuted once again by the simple meaning of the biblical text, your eisegesis was exposed once again by reading your false doctrines into the text of Ephesians 1.

You made a claim. Ephesians 1:4 refers soley to the apostles. So the 12 apostles were present in Ephesus when Paul penned the letter . Ant they are, solely , in Ephesians who he is addressing. The "saints" the letter is addressed to in verse 1.

Ease prove it contextually
Running to John will not suffice.

 

[civic]

You made a claim. Ephesians 1:4 refers soley to the apostles. So the 12 apostles were present in Ephesus when Paul penned the letter . Ant they are, solely , in Ephesians who he is addressing. The "saints" the letter is addressed to in verse 1.

Ease prove it contextually
Running to John will not suffice.

Eph 1 with WE/US are the EXACT same as 1 John with the WE/US- the Apostles.

See how the bible does not contradict itself and is unified except in your view ?

next

 

[Presby02]

To grant does not mean to effectually cause or infuse as your theology teaches

But Who mentioned things?

Believers are not things

And being in Christ because you trusted in him is clearly not unconditional

as was not noted, nothing at all is stated about unconditional election to salvation

Here comes Polly. No one claims it does.

Not possible from the foundation of the world.

As was noted nothing in scripture teaches He chose you becauseyou chose Him.

 

[Presby02]

Eph 1 with WE/US are the EXACT same as 1 John with the WE/US- the Apostles.

See how the bible does not contradict itself and is unified except in your view ?

next

Who said it's exact? LOL PROVE IT

 

[Presby02]

Thanks. But there will be some here who want to put words in my mouth or control my keyboard to add things I've never said.

It's probably a matter of seconds.

 

[Presby02]

My reply is that I did choose the truth of the Bible by first throwing all pagan calvinist presuppositions out the window. And I'm very glad I did.

You, on the other hand, choose to wallow in the cesspool of wacky logic and dirt poor reading skills. Reminds me of the Prodigal Son parable. May you come to your senses.

I could say the same thing to you.

I chose the truth as well. By the grace of God.

SOLA DEO GLORIA!

 

[civic]

Who said it's exact? LOL PROVE IT

the Bible says its the same US/WE the Apostles who were eyewitnesses. We are not eyewitnesses.

 

[civic]

nope

I could say the same thing to you.

I chose the truth as well. By the grace of God.

SOLA DEO GLORIA!

wrong again your god chose

 

[Presby02]

nope

wrong again your god chose

Of course He did.

 

[Presby02]

Let's examine civics silly contention.

1) if the "you" is addressed soley to the apostles they must have all been present in Ephesus. Something our world renowned scholar has yet to prove.

2) it's addressed to the saints in the church in Ephesus. Verse 1. A church of 11 I ake it.

3) Is the rest of the letter even relevant to the rest of us?

 

[civic]

Of course He did.

agreed so it was not your choice thats just an illusion or better yet a delusion.

 

[Presby02]

agreed so it was not your choice thats just an illusion or better yet a delusion.

Nope. I actually make a choice.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Just Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Is that all?

All you false prophets ALWAYS desire to limit God to yourselves. Satan has the same issue. Satan can't have God so he tries to make sure that no one else can......

Oh no, Satan has a God. His Name is I AM.
And I agree about false prophets. Except they don't limit God. They ADD to the bible things that just are not there. Like God having covenant with Gentiles. Or like Gentiles that unmoor true, biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots. Or Gentiles stealing the Hebrew Covenants and their terminology, terms such as "saints" or "Church" or "Bride" and take them over and making them apply to Gentiles when the Scripture doesn't say such things.
Gentiles even have the arrogant audacity to teach that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who dealt with Abraham and his descendants the children of Israel for nearly 4000 years in order to come to a place where the New Covenant can be realized, and that after exercising His longsuffering and repeatedly blessing and judging Israel for nearly 4000 years that when the New Covenant He prophesied with the House of Israel finally comes about that His first words at the beginning of the covenant are to Gentiles!
Of course, we now know that the Hebrew writings from Genesis to Revelation are His words to the Hebrew people also known as the children of Israel.
But God is not mocked. Whatsoever a people sow, that shall they also reap. But the thing that astounds me even to this day in my life is that judgment is coming upon Gentiles and there will be no rapture available for them that they think they can actually escape what's coming!
Truly amazing.
And scary.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Oh no, Satan has a God. His Name is I AM.
And I agree about false prophets. Except they don't limit God. They ADD to the bible things that just are not there. Like God having covenant with Gentiles. Or like Gentiles that unmoor true, biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots. Or Gentiles stealing the Hebrew Covenants and their terminology, terms such as "saints" or "Church" or "Bride" and take them over and making them apply to Gentiles when the Scripture doesn't say such things.
Gentiles even have the arrogant audacity to teach that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who dealt with Abraham and his descendants the children of Israel for nearly 4000 years in order to come to a place where the New Covenant can be realized, and that after exercising His longsuffering and repeatedly blessing and judging Israel for nearly 4000 years that when the New Covenant He prophesied with the House of Israel finally comes about that His first words at the beginning of the covenant are to Gentiles!
Of course, we now know that the Hebrew writings from Genesis to Revelation are His words to the Hebrew people also known as the children of Israel.
But God is not mocked. Whatsoever a people sow, that shall they also reap. But the thing that astounds me even to this day in my life is that judgment is coming upon Gentiles and there will be no rapture available for them that they think they can actually escape what's coming!
Truly amazing.
And scary.

But you're escaping...... right? Its all those other bad bad gentiles to you. Not the bad bad gentile you are.

 

[TomL]

Here comes Polly. No one claims it does.

Um your theology does

Irresistible grace remember. The gift of faith which cannot refused

Not possible from the foundation of the world.

As was noted nothing in scripture teaches He chose you becauseyou chose Him.

sorry you are ignoring the fact the bible nowhere states salvation is unconditional.

And election in a soteriological framework is in Christ.

One must be in Christ and that is a condition

 

[TomL]

Were all 12 apostsles present in Ephesus when he penned the letter?? The "you" is solely the apostles he is addressing directly.

Um the others are mentioned here

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

The Jews here

Ephesians 1:12 (ESV) — 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.