Free-willer Straw Man Argument

[TibiasDad]

That's all well and good Doug. That does not necessarily mean he is an expert in Reformed theology as he claims to be.

1) I think you’re moving the goalposts; I don’t think anyone has vaunted themselves to be an “expert” at anything.

2) What defines an “expert”? I have known many people without advanced degrees that could stand toe to toe with anyone in a conversation.

The point is not whether one is an expert, but whether the particular point they are making is valid. Having argued against many Calvinists through the years (and reading them in the course of my own studies) I again assert that Civic has been in line with all of the other Calvinists I’ve encountered. Thus , in my experience, if you disagree with Civic’s claims about Calvinism, you’re disagreeing with all the other Calvinists that argued against me with him.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Well, the Bible does say there will be apostasy before the return of our Lord.

So now we are apostates…? I would humbly suggest you tone down the rhetoric! The disagreements between us do not establish apostasy!

Doug

 

[civic]

1) I think you’re moving the goalposts; I don’t think anyone has vaunted themselves to be an “expert” at anything.

2) What defines an “expert”? I have known many people without advanced degrees that could stand toe to toe with anyone in a conversation.

The point is not whether one is an expert, but whether the particular point they are making is valid. Having argued against many Calvinists through the years (and reading them in the course of my own studies) I again assert that Civic has been in line with all of the other Calvinists I’ve encountered. Thus , in my experience, if you disagree with Civic’s claims about Calvinism, you’re disagreeing with all the other Calvinists that argued against me with him.


Doug

Exactly

Which is why I can use Calvin , Spurgeon, Sproul, Mac and many other Calvinist theologians as hostile witnesses again them on the forum. I know what they teach unlike most C’s on the forum . Then they will cry out we don’t follow Calvin lol. Since they can’t refute the argument it becomes their excuse and get out of jail free card that doesn’t pass the truth test.

 

[TomL]

Exactly

Which is why I can use Calvin , Spurgeon, Sproul, Mac and many other Calvinist theologians as hostile witnesses again them on the forum. I know what they teach unlike most C’s on the forum . Then they will cry out we don’t follow Calvin lol. Since they can’t refute the argument it becomes their excuse and get out of jail free card that doesn’t pass the truth test.

Indeed which is why I also collect quotes and systematic theologies extolling Calvinist views

 

[Obadiah]

Well, the Bible does say there will be apostasy before the return of our Lord.

The Bible says a lot about a lot of things. Here are seven things the Bible says about fools:

1. A fool starts fights. (Proverbs 18:6)
2. A fool is easily upset. (Proverbs 12:16)
3. A fool believes everything he reads. (Proverbs 14:15)
4. A fool loves to talk, but hates to listen. (Proverbs 18:2)
5. A fool is fiercely independent. (Proverbs 28:26)
6. A fool makes light of sin. (Proverbs 10:23)
7. A fool hates their mama. (Proverbs 15:20)

 

[TomL]

The Bible says a lot about a lot of things. Here are seven things the Bible says about fools:

1. A fool starts fights. (Proverbs 18:6)
2. A fool is easily upset. (Proverbs 12:16)
3. A fool believes everything he reads. (Proverbs 14:15)
4. A fool loves to talk, but hates to listen. (Proverbs 18:2)
5. A fool is fiercely independent. (Proverbs 28:26)
6. A fool makes light of sin. (Proverbs 10:23)
7. A fool hates their mama. (Proverbs 15:20)

The fool says there is no God

Psalm 14:1 (ESV) — 1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

 

[Obadiah]

The fool says there is no God

Psalm 14:1 (ESV) — 1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

Not the abominable deeds, oh no's. I gave those up for Lent.

 

[Frank Russell]

Many in the sense meant in that verse

It speaks of those who are in relationship with God/Christ

Which is why Christ could say

Matthew 7:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

and it could be said

Galatians 4:8–9 (ESV) — 8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?

1 Corinthians 8:3 (ESV) — 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.

Prodigal son.

 

[TomL]

Prodigal son.

Can you expound?

 

[synergy]

That's pretty much how we think of what we did;

You're dead wrong. You've done none of what I wrote:

My reply is that I did choose the truth of the Bible by first throwing all pagan calvinist presuppositions out the window. And I'm very glad I did.

And you continue to do the following:

You, on the other hand, choose to wallow in the cesspool of wacky logic and dirt poor reading skills. Reminds me of the Prodigal Son parable. May you come to your senses.

 

[synergy]

I could say the same thing to you.

I chose the truth as well. By the grace of God.

SOLA DEO GLORIA!

The Calvinist view of Soli Deo Gloria is a warped Zero Sum view of Soli Deo Gloria. See the following post:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/soli-deo-gloria-and-calvinisms-zero-sum-mentality.1248/post-46169

 

[Studyman]

The fool says there is no God

Psalm 14:1 (ESV) — 1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

4Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

5There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

 

[TomL]

4Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

5There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

Yes

Paul quotes

There is none that doeth good

Romans 3:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Frank Russell]

Can you expound?

Your examples highlight a scriptural bias that is very elder son of the prodigal son story.

The moral of the story is to be like the Father of the story.

However, before that is possible, finding balance between the two sons is recommended.

 

[Studyman]

Yes

Paul quotes

There is none that doeth good

Romans 3:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Who are the "They"? This is another of the "many" insidious lies being promoted about Paul by "MANY" of this world's religious men who call Jesus Lord, Lord.

So in your religion, Paul is rejecting the part of the Psalms 14 that I posted. And he is preaching that there is NO Generation of the Righteous, that he is saying that in the Body of Christ, "both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all (Still) under sin", that in the Body of Christ, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God"? That in the Body of the Christ, "Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:? That in the Body of Christ, their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes" in the Body of Christ?

Or could it be that the Spirit in David and the Spirit in Paul is the same Spirit, and it was the men who "Professed to know God", who had the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them, AKA, the "workers of Iniquity", who were falsely accusing Paul, "(as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just." who "are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable".

As it is also written in the Psalms Paul used to make "his" point, 6 "Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge."

 

[TomL]

Who are the "They"? This is another of the "many" insidious lies being promoted about Paul by "MANY" of this world's religious men who call Jesus Lord, Lord.

So in your religion, Paul is rejecting the part of the Psalms 14 that I posted. And he is preaching that there is NO Generation of the Righteous, that he is saying that in the Body of Christ, "both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all (Still) under sin", that in the Body of Christ, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God"? That in the Body of the Christ, "Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:? That in the Body of Christ, their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes" in the Body of Christ?

Or could it be that the Spirit in David and the Spirit in Paul is the same Spirit, and it was the men who "Professed to know God", who had the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them, AKA, the "workers of Iniquity", who were falsely accusing Paul, "(as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just." who "are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable".

As it is also written in the Psalms Paul used to make "his" point, 6 "Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge."

I simply noted Paul quoted that

That is it

 

[TomL]

Your examples highlight a scriptural bias that is very elder son of the prodigal son story.

The moral of the story is to be like the Father of the story.

However, before that is possible, finding balance between the two sons is recommended.

???????????????

Care to explain how you get that from

Many in the sense meant in that verse

It speaks of those who are in relationship with God/Christ

Which is why Christ could say

Matthew 7:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

and it could be said

Galatians 4:8–9 (ESV) — 8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?

1 Corinthians 8:3 (ESV) — 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.

which simply expounds on what it means to be known or foreknown by God

 

[Studyman]

I simply noted Paul quoted that

That is it

I asked you why you posted it, what do you preach that it means?

That is it.

 

[TomL]

I asked you why you posted it, what do you preach that it means?

That is it.

I posted it simply noting Paul quoted it

Paul quotes from a number of passages in Rom 3 concerning the general sinfulness of man

There was no theological motive behind it.

 

[Studyman]

I posted it simply noting Paul quoted it

Paul quotes from a number of passages in Rom 3 concerning the general sinfulness of man

There was no theological motive behind it.

I get that you don't want to answer the questions I posed. Not many, who call Jesus Lord, Lord will.