civic
Well-known member
false teachers are deceivers thats exactly what Jesus and the Apostles say about them.
I'm sorry you reject the bible and its many admonitions about false teachers.
Free-willer Straw Man Argument
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
I'm sorry you reject the bible and its many admonitions about false teachers.
Bla bla bla. Foiled again.
Intentionally or is that what they genuinely believe?
I don't reject what the Bible teaches on false teachers. I reject your journey back across the Tiber every day. LOL
Do you not read
In Christ
how long will you dodge this?
How does one get in Christ?
It did not happen in eternity
Romans 16:7 (ESV) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
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That's all you can say on behalf of your pagan god?!? You will now have to suffer the wrath of your pagan god!
civic
Well-known member
cognitive dissonance- many include evil while others try are deny it all the while saying God is the " FIRST CAUSE " of everything.
an oxymoronic belief system full of contradictions this being just one of many of them.
the only consistent calvinist is the hyper. the others are just in denial and cannot face the music with their own theology and its conclusions.
You go to the head of the Calvinist Apologetics 101 Class. You have clearly demonstrated by your actions that logic is to be scorned and that communication skills are to be damned.
You are now the star student of that class and get an A+ for that. Well done!
The choice was made from the foundation of the world. The "you" in Ephesians 1. Speaking of dodging. How is that possible if they did not exist yet?
You are in Christ when you believe. The choice to grant you belief and place you in Christ was made from the foundation of the world.
Okay, thank you. Love you brotherYou go to the head of the Calvinist Apologetics 101 Class. You have clearly demonstrated that logic is to be scorned and that communication skills are to be damned.
You are now the star student of that class and get an A+ for that. Well done!
In all seriousness, I would think twice about choosing to remain captive to calvinist pagan presuppositions. The Bible declares that Truth will set you free, so choose the truth of the Bible by first throwing all pagan calvinist presuppositions out the window. You will be glad you did.Okay, thank you. Love you brother
civic
Well-known member
Yes the TRUTH set me free- AMEN ! PRAISE JESUS !
When you believe
That is a condition.
Isn't it
So being chosen in Christ involves a condition
Again is that not so
BTW is nothing is stated of any choice to cause them to believe
that is adding to the text
As for your question
as I explained to you multiple times it was not the selection of individual men to be saved but the determination that those in Christ would be holy and blameless before god in love
This as we see in Romans is accomplished in time
I could say the same thing to you.
civic
Well-known member
More twisting Scripture its not YOU( ephesians ) its US ( the Apostles )
Nope. Belief is granted by God. It's a means to a end . "through belief"
Nope. It says specifically He choose "you", individuals, not things. When? From the foundation of the works. How is that possible? They did not exist.
All 12 apostles were in Ephesus? LOL Prove i
civic
Well-known member
Paul makes the distinction with 2 groups below and contrasts them.
The Jews who were Apostles ( we, us , our )who first believed and were the ones predestined / chosen and with the gentiles ( you ) who believed after, later in verses 13 and beyond. They gentiles did not have the wisdom , knowledge and the mysteries were revealed to the Apostles not the gentiles. Paul is teaching them those mysteries in this letter and educating them. This passage refutes Calvinism it does not support it whatsoever. Only if one uses eisegesis can verses 1-12 be applied to a Calvinist. Exegetically it applies to the Apostles who were given the knowledge, wisdom, the mysteries revealed to them by election / predestination not the gentiles in Ephesus.
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.11 In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
( Now Paul goes from we the apostles to them the gentile Ephesians. The apostles were the first to believe with wisdom from God and not prays for them to have the same wisdom they have)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Thanksgiving and Prayer
15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.The Mystery was given and revealed only to the Apostles and all other believers were taught it by the Apostles. In Ephesians 1:9 Paul as an Apostle was given that mystery that had been kept from everyone except the Apostles , those who were chosen by Jesus, elect and predestined by Him to reveal His will and the mystery that had been hidden. They were the ones given all wisdom and knowledge and the rest had to learn and be taught that wisdom, knowledge and mystery. The elect,chosen, predestined were the Apostles in Ephesians 1 not the gentiles in Ephesus.
Ephesians 3 below confirms Ephesians 1:3-12 is the Apostles- the predestined ones. Paul included himself with the Apostles/Disciples- the 12 chosen by Jesus personally. The foundation the church is built upon is the Apostles- Ephesians 4. Those were Gods predestined ones in Ephesians 1. They not us were given all wisdom, knowledge and the mystery of knowing Gods will. Everyone else needed to be taught what that was through Gods chosen Apostles. Those chosen/elect in the gospels are the 12 disciples/Apostles in Jesus teaching.
Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13 I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.
conclusion: the predestined group ( Jewish Apostles ) were the first to believe and were given all wisdom, understanding knowing the mystery of His will. The gentiles ( you, them ) were not the first to believe until way later after Paul was sent to them after Acts 13. Thet were prayed for by Paul as a group to be blesses with wisdom, knowledge, enlightenment so they may know ( they did not know at that time) and did not know the mysteries like the group in 1:3-12. Paul is making the distinction between the Apostles and who he is wrting to like he does in most of his other letters in the introduction of this letter.
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Were all 12 apostsles present in Ephesus when he penned the letter?? The "you" is solely the apostles he is addressing directly.
civic
Well-known member
another fallacious argument. questions are not apologetics deal with the text.
Were they with John when He wrote ? Can you see the WE/ US which mean the Apostles ?
Who saw, heard, felt, touched,looked upon, handled ?
The Apostles or Johns readers ?
1 John
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
conclusion: you have been refuted once again by the simple meaning of the biblical text, your eisegesis was exposed once again by reading your false doctrines into the text of Ephesians 1.
My reply is that I did choose the truth of the Bible by first throwing all pagan calvinist presuppositions out the window. And I'm very glad I did.
You, on the other hand, choose to wallow in the cesspool of wacky logic and dirt poor reading skills. Reminds me of the Prodigal Son parable. May you come to your senses.
