praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Do you see the fact that the "earth" brought forth these things?
Yes, Calvinists—free will IS in the Bible.
- Thread starter Diserner
- Start date
Do you see the fact that the "earth" brought forth these things?
Nothing there about God causing sin
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I can do the same thing....
God didn't create sin. Sin isn't a creation. It is the result of disobeying God. Prove that sin is a creation. You're not making a valid. You're just making a ridiculous claim relative to silly causal ignorance.
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It is a terrible slight upon the holiness of God to make him a casual entity in the sin of man.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
We finally agree on something. That's why the "is God the author of sin" debate is meaningless. God can't disobey Himself. Jesus could not disobey Himself. He had a human nature inasmuch as he could experience the weakness of the flesh and temptation, but he couldn't sin.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Brother... that is the difference between peccable and impeccable. We agree in many areas.
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makesends
Well-known member
I agree it originates from within each person. That doesn't mean God is not the cause of it. ALL things descend causally from first cause. It is simply logical. And the Bible says the same.
makesends
Well-known member
I didn't say that sin is a creation, nor that God created sin. You are misrepresenting me again.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
What is the difference between create and cause relative to God? Please do tell.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Just so you are aware. You're not paying attention. I said result. Your believe God purposely caused/created sin.
makesends
Well-known member
Please lay off the sarcasm. It is not what I said. God created, but many —most, I think— things are from secondary causes; God uses means to accomplish what he decreed.
I say that God caused that there be sin. I don't say that God created sin. Sin is a result of each person's uncontrolled lusts, "each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin". If you can show that that scenario would have happened, had God not created the universe, be my guest. All things, to every detail, descend causally from First Cause. If there is such a thing as sin, God caused that there be sin.
Just as James said, God does not tempt anyone.
makesends
Well-known member
I believe God purposely caused that there be sin. And that, through secondary causes, such as people, who sin of their own derivation. See James.
I was paying attention. And you continue to misrepresent me. I do not believe that God created sin. I don't even say that God caused sin, but that he caused that there be sin. There is a difference, for people like you to see, but you won't.
God is not the first cause of your sin. You cannot logically deny he is a cause of your sin and claim he is the first cause of it.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
God never uses sin to accomplish anything. There is no meaningful difference between saying God created sin and saying that God caused sin. The primary cause of sin was disobedience. Your sense Of casualty is ridiculous. God is NOT the author/creator/cause of sin. Your "spin" of the subject is nonsense.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You are full of double talk. You say God is the author of sin because of the primary cause of God creating the Universe. Which is ridiculous.
God created dirt. Man fabricated dirt into a weapon. Men used that dirt to commit sin. God is not the primary cause of the evil caused by men from their primary cause in fabricating a weapon.
You are endlessly misrepresenting God. Congratulations. God must really love your characterization tht He is incapable of accomplishing His desire without the cause of evil. You should be so proud of yourself. Do you think God will praise your sinfulness for His Glory?
Aeliana
Well-known member
Well... I know that's a deep subject. Everyone is entitled to the wrong opinion. My opinion has always been that God is Not the author of sin. I've actually never run across anyone that said he was. Just this one verse shows me that sin is not from God.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21
Doing a quick online search I found these.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21
Doing a quick online search I found these.
- Satan [certainly not God] is the father of lies (John 8:44).
- God does not even tempt people to sin, but they are led astray by their own evil desires (James 1:13-15).
- God made man upright, but man pursued sin (Eccl 7:29). (God did not make man with an inclination to sin.)
- Everything God created is good (Gen 1; 1 Tim 4:4), so He could not possibly have created sin.
- "For all that is in the world-the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-is not of the Father but is of the world" (1 John 2:16, NKJV).
- God is entirely free of sin (1 John 1:5).
Logically if God decreed all the sin of man he would be the author of it
but then again he did not decree all of the sin of man
Rockson
Well-known member
That's an assertion that implies intent.
I get what you're saying but it still doesn't work. It's like you're saying God left two open paint cans....one with yellow....another with blue. And you're saying MAN came along and he mixed them NOT God but MAN....to make GREEN. God didn't create GREEN or sin you say MAN did. You forget one thing however. Your doctrine has it MAN ordained sin to occur....ORDAINED IT. That would mean no other choice could be made once he ordained it. Now let's go to your next point.
Your doctrine would therefore have to mean that if what God ordained must take place without fail that would therefore make God responsible for creating what you call above each person's uncontrolled lust. By your own words that's the way it happened. If that's therefore the way you say it happened, or that's the guarantee factor of God's ordaining.....well there you go. You're really believing God created sin. I trust and hope you can see that.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Well, duh.
makesends
Well-known member
I did not say he is not a cause of it. I said he is not THE cause of it. I don't even say he causes it, but that he causes that there be sin. I am particular about that simply because I want it understood that sin comes from within the sinner; but all things descend logically from God's having created. It's really not complicated, until someone wants to look at it through the lens of self-determinism.
But if that's too much parsing for you, then go ahead and condemn those who do say that God created sin. The question is not, I hope, whether God knew that there would be sin when he created, but went ahead and created anyway, for his own purposes.
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