Deteminism is fatalism

I found this information on this topic thought I would share it.

The Problem with Divine Determinism
The view of divine sovereignty held by Calvinists is known as divine determinism. It is called such because it is God who determines everything that happens. There are other forms of determinism, for example naturalistic determinism (sometimes known as mechanistic determinism). In this view “matter or nature is all that exists, and it is completely controlled by natural laws. . . . These [laws of nature] are the sole causative agents in the universe.” In principle, if one knew the position and velocity of every particle in the universe at any given moment then, knowing all the governing laws of nature, one could calculate the exact state of the universe at any time in the future.491 Psychological determinism seeks to explain all human behavior by appeal to antecedent causes that cause the person to act the way he or she does. Such antecedent causes may be hereditary, genetic, social, or environmental. Perhaps the most famous proponent of this form of determinism is the psychologist and social philosopher B. F. Skinner (1904–1990). The term behaviorism is often associated with his name. He boldly asserted that “the autonomous agent to which behavior has traditionally been attributed is replaced by the environment.”

Many people, and Christians especially, have looked rather unfavorably to such forms of determinism as an explanation for human actions and choices. The primary reason is not hard to discern: the sense of moral accountability for one’s actions is undermined. The Calvinist Albert Mohler captures the sentiment well when he says:

This link between moral choice and moral responsibility is virtually instinctive to humans. As a matter of fact, it is basic to our understanding of what it means to be human. We hold each other responsible for actions and choices. But if all of our choices are illusory—and everything is merely the “inevitable consequence” of something beyond our control, moral responsibility is an exercise in delusion.

Such notions of determinism smack too close to fatalism to be comfortable. It is encapsulated by the saying “whatever will be, will be.” If all one’s actions and behaviors are determined by one’s environment or “something beyond our control” then indeed any sense of moral responsibility would seem to be nothing but wishful thinking. The thief could claim that he was not responsible since he was brought up under very hard circumstances and learned to steal to survive; the rapist could blame his hormones for his behavior; the bully could absolve himself of responsibility by claiming he learned his behavior from a delinquent father, and so on.
Now, the point in bringing up determinism generally, is that it helps to highlight the problem with divine or theistic determinism, for all the problems associated with naturalistic or psychological determinism, especially the issue of moral accountability, apply equally to divine determinism. Cottrell explains the problem well:

[Theistic determinism is the view] that the eternal Sovereign absolutely and directly ordains or causes everything that happens, including the thoughts and actions of human beings. This means that God is the primary causative agent of everything that happens in the universe. . . . As with any determinism, this calls into question the reality of human free will along with its corollary, moral responsibility.

An all-determining God, in the final analysis, “could never have any more glory from men than he could receive from the operations of the laws of nature.” Furthermore, “Although such a view of man accords well with much psychological and sociological presupposition in modern secular research, we feel compelled to set it aside as a final principle because it leads necessarily to manipulation, to irresponsibility, and to God as the ultimate author of sin.” In a realm where everything that happens flows inexorably from an antecedent cause, in this case God, then the reality of human responsibility for actions taken by a person is effectively undermined and removed. This is necessarily so because the human agent in the final analysis could do no other than he in fact does. In fact, to praise someone for doing what he was determined by God to do, or to blame someone for doing what they could not avoid doing becomes not only unjustified but ultimately meaningless.

Furthermore, if divine determinism were true, then God’s character as a loving and gracious being is seriously called into question. The reason for this is clear: if everything that happens flows from the divine will expressed in a comprehensive decree that governs the world, then this would of necessity include all the evils and sins in the world. While no Calvinist would accept this conclusion, it seems to me to be inescapable. The Arminian scholar Roger Olsen summarizes the issue well: “Generally speaking, with few exceptions, Calvinists affirm God’s perfect goodness and love, but their belief in meticulous providence and absolute, all-determining sovereignty (determinism) undermines what they say.” Olsen goes on to say, “The Calvinist account of God’s sovereignty . . . inevitably makes God the author of sin, evil, and innocent suffering . . . and thereby impugns the integrity of God’s character as good and loving.”

Another fundamental problem with any form of determinism, including divine determinism, where everything that happens is the consequence of an antecedent cause, whether natural, psychological, or divine, is that one is left with a massive “is.” Perhaps this principle is best explained by way of illustration. Suppose John lied, then I could attribute his lying to God’s determining that he lie. Now suppose, under the identical circumstances, John does not lie then I could attribute his non-lying to God’s determining he not lie. Suppose John only told a half-truth, then I would have to attribute that half-truth to God’s determining that John only tell a half-truth. Suppose John kept silent, that too would be attributed to God’s all-determining powers. In fact, if John did not lie, but I thought that he did lie, then my viewpoint itself would likewise be determined by God. Whatever John did would have to be attributed to God’s determining actions upon John, and whatever my own assessment of John’s actions would also be determined by God. Under such circumstances, there is no way to judge an action right or wrong—it just is. To be able to judge an action one would need an independent, non-determined, stance from which a judgment could be made. But this is precisely what is lacking in a comprehensively determined environment.

Not only would ethical evaluations, as in the above illustration, be impossible, but so also would judgments of any kind: truth or falsity, justice or injustice, arguments valid or invalid, correct or incorrect, beauty or ugliness, right or wrong, even logical and illogical—all are rendered ultimately meaningless in an all-determining environment. Furthermore, in an all-divinely-determined environment there is no such thing as “ought.” “For ‘ought’ means ‘could have and should have done otherwise.’ But this is impossible according to determinism.” There is simply no independent framework from which to evaluate the validity of a moral claim or action. This is true for any kind of determinism, including divine determinism. Hart expresses the problem thus: “To assert that every finite contingency is solely and unambiguously the effect of a single will working all things . . . is to assert nothing but that the world is what it is, for any meaningful distinction between the will of God and the simple totality of cosmic eventuality has collapsed.” Philosophers capture the idea in this succinct expression: “no ought from is.” In other words, one cannot say what “ought” to be the case, when all one has is an all-determining “is.”

While, as we have seen, God’s sovereignty understood as divine determinism would allow for the idea of an unconditional election of individuals to salvation, the cost is exceedingly high; a world that is ultimately meaningless and irrational, populated by people who cannot be held morally responsible for their actions, and governed by a God who decrees not only goods but also every imaginable horror, evil, and sin.


Geoffrey D. Robinson, Saved by Grace through Faith or Saved by Decree? A Biblical and Theological Critique of Calvinist Soteriology
 
I found this information on this topic thought I would share it.

The Problem with Divine Determinism
The view of divine sovereignty held by Calvinists is known as divine determinism. It is called such because it is God who determines everything that happens. There are other forms of determinism, for example naturalistic determinism (sometimes known as mechanistic determinism). In this view “matter or nature is all that exists, and it is completely controlled by natural laws. . . . These [laws of nature] are the sole causative agents in the universe.” In principle, if one knew the position and velocity of every particle in the universe at any given moment then, knowing all the governing laws of nature, one could calculate the exact state of the universe at any time in the future.491 Psychological determinism seeks to explain all human behavior by appeal to antecedent causes that cause the person to act the way he or she does. Such antecedent causes may be hereditary, genetic, social, or environmental. Perhaps the most famous proponent of this form of determinism is the psychologist and social philosopher B. F. Skinner (1904–1990). The term behaviorism is often associated with his name. He boldly asserted that “the autonomous agent to which behavior has traditionally been attributed is replaced by the environment.”

Many people, and Christians especially, have looked rather unfavorably to such forms of determinism as an explanation for human actions and choices. The primary reason is not hard to discern: the sense of moral accountability for one’s actions is undermined. The Calvinist Albert Mohler captures the sentiment well when he says:

This link between moral choice and moral responsibility is virtually instinctive to humans. As a matter of fact, it is basic to our understanding of what it means to be human. We hold each other responsible for actions and choices. But if all of our choices are illusory—and everything is merely the “inevitable consequence” of something beyond our control, moral responsibility is an exercise in delusion.

Such notions of determinism smack too close to fatalism to be comfortable. It is encapsulated by the saying “whatever will be, will be.” If all one’s actions and behaviors are determined by one’s environment or “something beyond our control” then indeed any sense of moral responsibility would seem to be nothing but wishful thinking. The thief could claim that he was not responsible since he was brought up under very hard circumstances and learned to steal to survive; the rapist could blame his hormones for his behavior; the bully could absolve himself of responsibility by claiming he learned his behavior from a delinquent father, and so on.
Now, the point in bringing up determinism generally, is that it helps to highlight the problem with divine or theistic determinism, for all the problems associated with naturalistic or psychological determinism, especially the issue of moral accountability, apply equally to divine determinism. Cottrell explains the problem well:

[Theistic determinism is the view] that the eternal Sovereign absolutely and directly ordains or causes everything that happens, including the thoughts and actions of human beings. This means that God is the primary causative agent of everything that happens in the universe. . . . As with any determinism, this calls into question the reality of human free will along with its corollary, moral responsibility.

An all-determining God, in the final analysis, “could never have any more glory from men than he could receive from the operations of the laws of nature.” Furthermore, “Although such a view of man accords well with much psychological and sociological presupposition in modern secular research, we feel compelled to set it aside as a final principle because it leads necessarily to manipulation, to irresponsibility, and to God as the ultimate author of sin.” In a realm where everything that happens flows inexorably from an antecedent cause, in this case God, then the reality of human responsibility for actions taken by a person is effectively undermined and removed. This is necessarily so because the human agent in the final analysis could do no other than he in fact does. In fact, to praise someone for doing what he was determined by God to do, or to blame someone for doing what they could not avoid doing becomes not only unjustified but ultimately meaningless.

Furthermore, if divine determinism were true, then God’s character as a loving and gracious being is seriously called into question. The reason for this is clear: if everything that happens flows from the divine will expressed in a comprehensive decree that governs the world, then this would of necessity include all the evils and sins in the world. While no Calvinist would accept this conclusion, it seems to me to be inescapable. The Arminian scholar Roger Olsen summarizes the issue well: “Generally speaking, with few exceptions, Calvinists affirm God’s perfect goodness and love, but their belief in meticulous providence and absolute, all-determining sovereignty (determinism) undermines what they say.” Olsen goes on to say, “The Calvinist account of God’s sovereignty . . . inevitably makes God the author of sin, evil, and innocent suffering . . . and thereby impugns the integrity of God’s character as good and loving.”

Another fundamental problem with any form of determinism, including divine determinism, where everything that happens is the consequence of an antecedent cause, whether natural, psychological, or divine, is that one is left with a massive “is.” Perhaps this principle is best explained by way of illustration. Suppose John lied, then I could attribute his lying to God’s determining that he lie. Now suppose, under the identical circumstances, John does not lie then I could attribute his non-lying to God’s determining he not lie. Suppose John only told a half-truth, then I would have to attribute that half-truth to God’s determining that John only tell a half-truth. Suppose John kept silent, that too would be attributed to God’s all-determining powers. In fact, if John did not lie, but I thought that he did lie, then my viewpoint itself would likewise be determined by God. Whatever John did would have to be attributed to God’s determining actions upon John, and whatever my own assessment of John’s actions would also be determined by God. Under such circumstances, there is no way to judge an action right or wrong—it just is. To be able to judge an action one would need an independent, non-determined, stance from which a judgment could be made. But this is precisely what is lacking in a comprehensively determined environment.

Not only would ethical evaluations, as in the above illustration, be impossible, but so also would judgments of any kind: truth or falsity, justice or injustice, arguments valid or invalid, correct or incorrect, beauty or ugliness, right or wrong, even logical and illogical—all are rendered ultimately meaningless in an all-determining environment. Furthermore, in an all-divinely-determined environment there is no such thing as “ought.” “For ‘ought’ means ‘could have and should have done otherwise.’ But this is impossible according to determinism.” There is simply no independent framework from which to evaluate the validity of a moral claim or action. This is true for any kind of determinism, including divine determinism. Hart expresses the problem thus: “To assert that every finite contingency is solely and unambiguously the effect of a single will working all things . . . is to assert nothing but that the world is what it is, for any meaningful distinction between the will of God and the simple totality of cosmic eventuality has collapsed.” Philosophers capture the idea in this succinct expression: “no ought from is.” In other words, one cannot say what “ought” to be the case, when all one has is an all-determining “is.”

While, as we have seen, God’s sovereignty understood as divine determinism would allow for the idea of an unconditional election of individuals to salvation, the cost is exceedingly high; a world that is ultimately meaningless and irrational, populated by people who cannot be held morally responsible for their actions, and governed by a God who decrees not only goods but also every imaginable horror, evil, and sin.


Geoffrey D. Robinson, Saved by Grace through Faith or Saved by Decree? A Biblical and Theological Critique of Calvinist Soteriology
Excellent thank you
 
Don't agree with a couple of the points.

The main thing to focus on is God self-reveals as maximally loving, and bestowing upon creation autonomous will.
 
@e v e from the old forum which is spot on as it went from greek pagan philosophy to Augustine to the reformers into Christianity.

Repeat:
The prime mover unmoved construct is PAGAN.

It comes from the Aristotle, a greek pagan, referring to his gods.

If God was 'unmoved' He would be a sociopath.

The greek gods are sociopathic.. hence aristotle refers to
the mover unmoved....because....
those beings are unaffected, unmoved and do not love. Cruelty is their nature.

That's nothing like our Christian God.

If we did not affect Him He would not have bothered to send His son to save us.
Or to speak to us at all through His Words in Scripture. Or to want us back.

instead we can say

God is perfect and He is love
and He is our deity...
and He knows every hair on heads
and cares for us..
and that He wants His sons, you and all His sons,
to rule with Christ in His New creation (restored eden.)

And everything God says and does is true...
and His will be done, now and for ever.
yes

thank you for reposting.
I will respond more. ❤️
 
maximally loving is a philosophical concept
devised to explain evil.

it is based on wrong premises of God being limited so he created the 'best possible world.'

I.,e., within limits.

That is just not true. What limits are those?

God created a perfect reality by love.
The best possible world scenario attempts to place God as limited by Causality.

A proposer of that occasionalism doctrine (an extension of Aristotelian causality) was Leibniz.
I've got extensive notes on him and he is another wolf in sheep's clothing.
The genealogy can be read here.
It's quite bad.

^^^ that is now how I would write it out...
but note that Descartes is an Augustinian and also a Platonist.
All of the determinists and later free willists are Augustinian, but
by emphasizing different details appear to be on opposite ends
of logic. Determinism was so extreme that it immediately
led to the early modern libertarian free will...
in a form of controlled opposition where the opposites
switched, one leading to another as planned
by the evil realm.
 
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The Galileo war was the same controlled opposition.
The issue there was that the reality described in scripture as eden is NOT on this earth.
By positing that it was, this created a 'conflict' between 'science',
again, based on Plato and Aristotle since that was the 'science of the day',
and what God says.

It was a false argument, because terms were changed in meaning to create
an opposition in which 'science' would win.
In his early texts and to get by censors, Descartes
wrote in his intro that his goal was to merge Science and Christianity,
and that indeed was the nefarious project to bring in
the early modern 'free individual' (cough)

there were too many lies
to unravel by now, and the big ones stayed firmly in place.
the thirty years war, the only religious war in European history,
brought murder, plague, and death,
was a war of souls against the evil realm
 
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Maximally loving is a completely different concept than maximally best worlds.

You've got that mixed up.
they are related though I did not spell out the connection...
I wasn't criticizing you... but was pointing out that
maximally is a a loaded philosophical term.....
appearing in those same texts to set up
'limits' (any limits) for God.
 
He Speaks the Word
and created His Reality by Love.


Look around at this physical nature...
and note it has no Love at all...
it is simply causality in action...
which is a form of determinism,
since Per Aristotle, all of nature (here) is comprised of 'accidental causes'
interacting. Most of philosophy has tried
to escape determinism...but could not...
and even tries to fit God into their 'world' view
as limited by Causality (a result of the fall, a fallen paradigm)
 
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Don't agree with a couple of the points.

The main thing to focus on is God self-reveals as maximally loving, and bestowing upon creation autonomous will.
there is no such thing as autonomous free will except for a deity.
That term autonomous is an early modern philosophical term.
 
there is no such thing as autonomous free will except for a deity.
That term autonomous is an early modern philosophical term.

"Philosophical" is a philosophical term, yet here you are constantly using it.


I don't accept Exhaustive Divine Determinism, thus autonomy is a logically necessary concept.

Please don't discount words by past usages, or eytmologies, this is a fallacy.

Words only have the meaning people currently give to them.

"Spaghetti" could mean "clean your room" in some foreign language, it's irrelevant.
 
But those are things He does,
not things humans limit Him by through logic.

I agree with you, that whatever God is, he is maximally.

But there are those who try to limit God, so we have need of the word.

Otherwise how would one describe an idea that one needs to correct?
 
"Philosophical" is a philosophical term, yet here you are constantly using it.


I don't accept Exhaustive Divine Determinism, thus autonomy is a logically necessary concept.

Please don't discount words by past usages, or eytmologies, this is a fallacy.

Words only have the meaning people currently give to them.

"Spaghetti" could mean "clean your room" in some foreign language, it's irrelevant.
the past meaning of a word cannot be discounted. That is its root and not irrelevant.

I never used the term Exhaustive Divine Determinism. Not my words.
But, that concept would be one fitting the greek/egypt 'gods' and not Christianity.
Autonomy is not His term either, being but the other side of the same 'coin' of the greeks.
 
I agree with you, that whatever God is, he is maximally.

But there are those who try to limit God, so we have need of the word.

Otherwise how would one describe an idea that one needs to correct?
I would only say He escapes every measurement
right ?

and all of us who are His are not autonomous of His Will...
thats where using terminology gets so messed up
and why to avoid using it where we can...
imo , God chose simple souls for His prophets because they could Hear Him
and He did not choose scribes and pharisees, for a good reason...
because they were listening to their own Self and opinions and logic ...
 
Like I say determinism is fatalism
The meaning of fatalism is that our fates are chosen for us...but I like to say that as beings in the image of GOD with a free will our FATES must be chosen by us.

We chose our fates by our free will but the fulfilment of our choices were derailed when we chose to sin and became enslaved by evil. GOD then determined our LIVES to ensure our redemption and sanctification, renewing our free will, in the best possible manner.

Determinism should be considered to be predictive, not causative...
 
one tricky thing esau did was change and redefine terms over time...
so, in fact, the roots of a term are important....
what it meant when God speaks it is what it means...
not what something 'comes to mean now' over time..
 
The meaning of fatalism is that our fates are chosen for us...but I like to say that as beings in the image of GOD with a free will our FATES must be chosen by us.

We chose our fates by our free will but the fulfilment of our choices were derailed when we chose to sin and became enslaved by evil. GOD then determined our LIVES to ensure our redemption and sanctification, renewing our free will, in the best possible manner.

Determinism should be considered to be predictive, not causative...
That sounds synergistic :)
 
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