Deteminism is fatalism

Nice.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

People always want to soften fatalism somehow, because instinctively we know it's wrong.
Fatalism which denies our free will must be wrong in the light GOD has shed upon our eternal fate as either HIS bride or as condemned forever.

NO one can enter a truly loving marriage with all that that entails (communion and fellowship in a telepathic union) by the will of another without their own free will acceptance of the marriage proposal. GOD is not a Borg looking for a Stepford wife and only our free will allows a true marriage.

Neither can sin accrue to anyone who sins by the will of another without a free will decision to sin, to rebel against the presented standard. GOD cannot cause sin in anyone but HE can present the choice of a life lived with HIM and the life lived against HIM and then let everyone choose which they think will bring them the best chance for happiness without forcing that choice in the least by any means.

All this talk of a first cause sounds to me to be theo-babble designed to take us away from GOD as 3 Persons, with a loving and holy character...ie not just a force of nature or even a force before nature that caused our sinfulness needing redemption or condemnation.
 
That sounds synergistic :)
Hmmmm, if I understand what theological synergy refers to, I don't think so...

ImCo:
Our FATE is totally determined by ourselves responding to HIS proclamation of HIS reality including the proclamation of HIS deity, the gospel of salvation, the possible condemnation to hell and HIS proposal of marriage with us to enjoy HIS heavenly reality forever, etc.

Our salvation or condemnation for our sins is totally by HIM, HIS grace, mercy and eternal patience long suffering the sins of the reprobate demons while we bungle along in our training in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11 - the synergistic definition of salvation puts a bad smell in my nose. The sinner brings nothing to his salvation in the least just as GOD brings nothing to the sinner's choice to be sinful in HIS sight in the least.
 
NO one can enter a truly loving marriage with all that that entails (communion and fellowship in a telepathic union) by the will of another without their own free will acceptance of the marriage proposal. GOD is not a Borg looking for a Stepford wife and only our free will allows a true marriage.

There are many successful and loving arranged marriages. It's not always so, but it's not impossible.
 
@dizerner

I pulled this from your AI answer/question site

Like I say determinism is fatalism. :)


Fatalism and determinism are related philosophical concepts, but they have distinct differences in their implications and interpretations.
  1. Determinism:Determinism is the philosophical idea that all events, including human actions and choices, are causally determined by prior events and the laws of nature. It suggests that the present state of the universe, along with the natural laws that govern it, necessarily leads to specific future events. In a deterministic worldview, the future is viewed as a logical consequence of the past and the laws of cause and effect. This concept applies to both natural events and human actions.
    Difference: Determinism is a broader and more general concept, encompassing the idea that all events are causally determined. It doesn't necessarily imply a specific belief about fate or predestination. Determinism can be compatible with the idea of free will, as some philosophers propose "compatibilism," which suggests that free will can coexist with determinism if actions align with an individual's desires and motivations.
  2. Fatalism:Fatalism is the belief that all events and outcomes are predetermined and inevitable, regardless of human actions or choices. In a fatalistic view, it is futile for individuals to resist or change the course of events since they are bound to unfold as preordained. Fatalism often implies the idea of an external force or destiny that guides events in an inexorable manner.
    Difference: Fatalism is a specific subset of determinism, focusing on the inevitability of future events, typically without consideration of causality or the laws of nature. Fatalism tends to have a more fatalistic outlook, suggesting that events will unfold irrespective of human agency, choices, or actions. Unlike some interpretations of determinism, fatalism tends to reject the possibility of free will altogether.
In summary, determinism is a broader concept that suggests all events are causally determined, while fatalism is a specific subset of determinism that emphasizes the inevitability and predestination of events, often implying a lack of human control or influence over the unfolding of these events. While determinism can be compatible with free will (in the form of compatibilism), fatalism typically presents a more pessimistic view that events are fixed and beyond human intervention or choice.

Theological Determinism: This perspective holds that a divine entity or a higher power's omniscience and plan predetermine all events, including human actions.

Hard determinism is a philosophical position that asserts that free will is an illusion and that all events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by antecedent causes. In other words, under hard determinism, there is no room for genuine human agency or the ability to make choices that are independent of prior causes and conditions.

According to hard determinism, the state of the universe at any given moment, along with the laws of nature, logically and inevitably lead to specific outcomes in the future. This perspective denies the existence of any true alternatives and suggests that every action or decision made by an individual is the inevitable result of the sum total of their genetic makeup, past experiences, and external influences.

The proponents of hard determinism often draw on ideas from causal determinism, which posits that the world operates according to a chain of cause-and-effect relationships. They argue that even our thoughts and feelings are predetermined by physical processes in the brain and the external environment, leaving no room for genuine free will.

As a consequence of hard determinism, notions of moral responsibility and accountability become problematic. If individuals are not ultimately in control of their actions and choices, the traditional concepts of blame, punishment, and reward lose their grounding in the context of personal responsibility.

Critics of hard determinism argue that it negates the intuitive sense of agency and choice that humans experience in their everyday lives. They contend that certain complexities, such as the unpredictability of human behavior and the presence of genuine uncertainty in some systems (e.g., quantum mechanics), challenge the notion of a purely deterministic universe.

Overall, the debate between hard determinism and other philosophical perspectives on free will remains an ongoing and profound topic in philosophy and cognitive sciences, touching on fundamental questions about the nature of human existence and the limits of human autonomy.

calvinism is determinism which is fatalism.

hope this helps !!!
Do you accept these terms as explained here?

If so, where do you see my stand on it? If you like, number the paragraphs, so we both know what you are referring to.
 
There are many successful and loving arranged marriages. It's not always so, but it's not impossible.
And many unsuccessful and unloving non-arranged marriages. Seems to be even more common, though, granted, probably not by percentages. I can hear someone asking a Muslim wife, "How do you like your marriage?" To which she answers, "Can't complain..."
 
That said, determinism and free will are early modern concepts, after descartes and after the medieval was ending, and related to the "self" that esau was bringing in. It has different roots than does fatalism. Different concept but also, not Christian. The greeks had no idea of a 'self' or 'free will'. Only a deity had 'will'.
Ha-ha! Makes me think of an old religious concept I once heard of, apparently actually believed by some, that while we have free will, and do choose, the 'gods' watch to see what we choose and rearrange the illusion (or variously, create the 'facts') we see accordingly!
 
Ha-ha! Makes me think of an old religious concept I once heard of, apparently actually believed by some, that while we have free will, and do choose, the 'gods' watch to see what we choose and rearrange the illusion (or variously, create the 'facts') we see accordingly!
Well we can be glad that's not what the God of the universe is all about. Any time you'd have an outside party decide YOU ARE NOT going to choose that way but you ARE going to choose THIS way there is no such things as a true genuine will of anything.
 
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