Free-willer Straw Man Argument

[TomL]

Thank you professor. LOL Elect means to choose. Good. Where does it say you elect yourself?

How were then in Him when they did not exist then? Keeping in mind this choice was made from the foundation of the world.

Your simply dodging and deflecting my point. Provisionist have a problem. How do they explain their position and still maintain their montra foreknowledge is not determinitive.

You are confused. God chooses, those with faith, to save

1 Corinthians 1:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

newsflash they were not and Corporate election does not hold that they were

You simply do not know what you are talking about when you make such statements.

 

[TomL]

Sure it is. There are not only two options. FALSE DICHOTOMY

Again you provide no evidence for yiour claim

 

[Presby02]

If that was true, you'd think the Bible would say so explicitly in many places. But there's no such text that says God elects those who choose Him, let alone any mention of choosing Him of our own free will.

Exactly. Now they will run around imposing it on their pet proof texts that say no such thing.

 

[TomL]

Sure I would and will.

nope

Positing election and regeneration outside of Christ is false theology as shown by scripture

Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Your theology of unconditional election to salvation rests on a biblical impossibility

And your theology of divine meticulous determination of all things makes God a deity of deception

If any Child of God has a theology which is erroneous in any point it is because God determined it

Therefore God causes a child of his to believe a falsehood, a deception,

 

[Presby02]

You are confused. God chooses, those with faith, to save

1 Corinthians 1:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

newsflash they were not and Corporate election does not hold that they were

You simply do not know what you are talking about when you make such statements.

Nope. Not possible from the foundation of the world. Nowhere does scripture say such a thing.

Corporate election does not work either. The Bible does not say God chooses those who choose to join the fraternity of believers.

And you managed to dodge how it's possible the choice is made from the foundation of the world.

 

[TomL]

If that was true, you'd think the Bible would say so explicitly in many places. But there's no such text that says God elects those who choose Him, let alone any mention of choosing Him of our own free will.

Read

Ephesians 1:3–13 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

Now how does one get in him?

 

[Presby02]

nope

Positing election and regeneration outside of Christ is false theology as shown by scripture

Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Your theology of unconditional election to salvation rests on a biblical impossibility

And your theology of divine meticulous determination of all things makes God a deity of deception

If any Child of God has a theology which is erroneous in any point it is because God determined it

Therefore God causes a child of his to believe a falsehood, a deception,

So, He's writing to believers, those in Christ.

Now, where does it say God chooses those who choose Him? Or that you elect yourself?

 

[Presby02]

Read

Ephesians 1:3–13 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

Now how does one get in him?

Nothing about God choosing those who choose Him there.

Your position would also mean God's choosing is a ongoing process when clearly the choice was made from the foundation of the world.

 

[TomL]

Nope. Not possible from the foundation of the world. Nowhere does scripture say such a thing.

Corporate election does not work either. The Bible does not say God chooses those who choose to join the fraternity of believers.

And you managed to dodge how it's possible the choice is made from the foundation of the world.

Wake up

In him

Ephesians 1:3–13 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

sorry you simply do not know what you are talking

corporate election does not hold particular individuals were elected unconditionally to salvation before the foundation of the world

it holds God chose to present believe believers holy and blameless before him in love

There is nothing in Ephesians which states God chose unconditionally selected men to be believers and thus saved

There is no dodge here just your lack of understanding of the subject matter

 

[TomL]

So, He's writing to believers, those in Christ.

Now, where does it say God chooses those who choose Him? Or that you elect yourself?

Again God chooses to present those who are in Christ as holy and blameless before him in love

nothing at all is stated about unconditional election to salvation

Can you finally answer the question?

How does one get to be in Christ?

You spoke of dodging, even while you have failed to address that question through multiple posts

 

[TomL]

Nothing about God choosing those who choose Him there.

Your position would also mean God's choosing is a ongoing process when clearly the choice was made from the foundation of the world.

What does in him mean?

How does one get to be in him

You have been running from this throughout multiple posts now

 

[civic]

Your right. There is nothing to concede. He claims hes a expert on Reformed theology. If he was over there he should have brought with him over hear. LOL

on the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses let every fact be confirmed.

you have been refuted by the testimony of the eyewitnesses which is scriptural.

once again your argument has been dismantled and defeated.

if God is for us/with us who can stand against us.

hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

No mention of election in the text.

The chosen is "us". Nothing about God choosing them because they chose Him.

And my point, which was ignored, is that how is that possible since you were not around from the foundation of the world. Foreknowledge is not determinitive remember?

If that was true, you'd think the Bible would say so explicitly in many places. But there's no such text that says God elects those who choose Him, let alone any mention of choosing Him of our own free will.

Read Eph 2:4-7. Let's see if you can properly understand those verses or will your calvinist presuppositions continue to flood your mind to where you can't see past your nose.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Presby02]

Wake up

In him

Ephesians 1:3–13 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

sorry you simply do not know what you are talking

corporate election does not hold particular individuals were elected unconditionally to salvation before the foundation of the world

it holds God chose to present believe believers holy and blameless before him in love

There is nothing in Ephesians which states God chose unconditionally selected men to be believers and thus saved

There is no dodge here just your lack of understanding of the subject matter

So God's choice is ongoing then right?

The choice was made from the foundation of the world. That is what Ephesians does say and Provisionism apparently does not believe.

What I understand is the dilemma you have for yourself. Let me state again and maybe you will actually address it.

Provisionist: "foreknowledge is not determinitive."

So how is it we are chosen from the foundation of the world when we did not exist and have not chosen either way.

 

[civic]

Read

Ephesians 1:3–13 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

Now how does one get in him?

Spot on brother !

One is in Him ( Christ ) when they believe then are sealed with the Holy Spirit ( regeneration ). In that biblical order not the false teaching of calvin/calvinists.

Now watch all the questions/diversions to avoid the plain meaning of the text.

 

[Presby02]

Read Eph 2:4-7. Let's see if you can properly understand those verses or will your calvinist presuppositions continue to flood your mind to where you can't see past your nose.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Whoope. Nothing about God choosing those who choose Him there. Keep looking

 

[civic]

"That was easy" because you skipped over proving that. You must prove that your stated means of regeneration and resurrection are not conditions/requirements of election onto salvation. In other words, how can you possibly be saved without the condition of being regenerated or resurrected? Is that a new branch of humanoids we're talking about here, much like Calvinism's Living Dead?

You simply walked away from explaining yourself. I expected nothing less than for a Calvinist to walk away from having to explain their logic because there is none. Yours is just typical wacky logic once again from Calvinists.

ditto

 

[civic]

I can testify to the fact that Civic and I debated over on CARM for many years, and he was a very persistent and knowledgeable advocate for the Reformed theological position.

He was one of the more charitable Calvinists over there, and one capable of carrying on a civil, though passionate debate. I learned a lot about the Calvinistic beliefs from him, and his arguments were not trite or shallow pith, but well thought out and articulated and supported by scripture, though he knows now that he was off base in his interpretation of many of those scripture passages.

As one who knows the “before and after” of his arguments, I can verify that he is 180 degrees different in his theological views than he was just a few years ago.


Doug

Thanks brother !

Truth exposes slander all of the time.

2 Cor 13:1-
“Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Deut 19:15
A lone witness is not sufficient to establish any wrongdoing or sin against a man, regardless of what offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I can testify to the fact that Civic and I debated over on CARM for many years, and he was a very persistent and knowledgeable advocate for the Reformed theological position.

He was one of the more charitable Calvinists over there, and one capable of carrying on a civil, though passionate debate. I learned a lot about the Calvinistic beliefs from him, and his arguments were not trite or shallow pith, but well thought out and articulated and supported by scripture, though he knows now that he was off base in his interpretation of many of those scripture passages.

As one who knows the “before and after” of his arguments, I can verify that he is 180 degrees different in his theological views than he was just a few years ago.


Doug

Well, the Bible does say there will be apostasy before the return of our Lord.

 

[synergy]

Whoope. Nothing about God choosing those who choose Him there. Keep looking

Whoopee. I answered your question below and sure enough your calvinist presuppositions did continue to flood your mind and blind you to the truth. Once again, you simply ran away from Bible verses that explain your questions, typical of Calvinists.

And my point, which was ignored, is that how is that possible since you were not around from the foundation of the world.