Free-willer Straw Man Argument

[Frank Russell]

God knows if you will believe Him or reject Him. As Romans 8 says those whom He fore knows He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

See how complicated it gets when the simplicity is no longer simple. Either way, only God really knows. Hedging bets is not really my game.

 

[TibiasDad]

That is their opinion. I see no evidence of said knowledge. I don't even know if you were actually a Calvinist.

I can testify to the fact that Civic and I debated over on CARM for many years, and he was a very persistent and knowledgeable advocate for the Reformed theological position.

He was one of the more charitable Calvinists over there, and one capable of carrying on a civil, though passionate debate. I learned a lot about the Calvinistic beliefs from him, and his arguments were not trite or shallow pith, but well thought out and articulated and supported by scripture, though he knows now that he was off base in his interpretation of many of those scripture passages.

As one who knows the “before and after” of his arguments, I can verify that he is 180 degrees different in his theological views than he was just a few years ago.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

lol should I quote myself from carm ?

Civic, it won’t matter what you do, it is easier for him to attack you rather than defend his position. We know the truth of what you were and his acceptance of it is irrelevant to the truth. A whole line of us who knew you back on CARM can affirm your accounts, but he will never allow himself to concede the point.

Doug

 

[civic]

Civic, it won’t matter what you do, it is easier for him to attack you rather than defend his position. We know the truth of what you were and his acceptance of it is irrelevant to the truth. A whole line of us who knew you back on CARM can affirm your accounts, but he will never allow himself to concede the point.

Doug

Thanks brother

 

[TomL]

Oh wow, another hint of universalism. Was there anyone God did not foreknow?

Many in the sense meant in that verse

It speaks of those who are in relationship with God/Christ

Which is why Christ could say

Matthew 7:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

and it could be said

Galatians 4:8–9 (ESV) — 8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?

1 Corinthians 8:3 (ESV) — 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.

 

[TomL]

Civic, it won’t matter what you do, it is easier for him to attack you rather than defend his position. We know the truth of what you were and his acceptance of it is irrelevant to the truth. A whole line of us who knew you back on CARM can affirm your accounts, but he will never allow himself to concede the point.

Doug

Shutting one's mind off to truth is never a wise thing to do.

 

[Presby02]

I can testify to the fact that Civic and I debated over on CARM for many years, and he was a very persistent and knowledgeable advocate for the Reformed theological position.

He was one of the more charitable Calvinists over there, and one capable of carrying on a civil, though passionate debate. I learned a lot about the Calvinistic beliefs from him, and his arguments were not trite or shallow pith, but well thought out and articulated and supported by scripture, though he knows now that he was off base in his interpretation of many of those scripture passages.

As one who knows the “before and after” of his arguments, I can verify that he is 180 degrees different in his theological views than he was just a few years ago.


Doug

That's all well and good Doug. That does not necessarily mean he is a expert in Reformed theology as he claims to be.

 

[Presby02]

@Presby02 , being a Calvinist and believing that election unto salvation is unconditional, must prove that his proposed means of regeneration and resurrection are not conditions/requirements of election onto salvation. In other words, Presby is caught between a rock and a hard place. That's typical of Calvinists. They never weigh the implications of their wacky statements.

No conditions are given for becoming elect. You don't become elect and nowhere does the Bible teach you do. You were elect from the foundation of the world. That was easy.

 

[Presby02]

Shutting one's mind off to truth is never a wise thing to do.

Then stop doing it.

 

[Presby02]

Explain your logic. Are you seriously saying that election onto salvation is unconditional to the means of regeneration and resurrection? It has to be for you to believe that election unto salvation is unconditional. Explain to us how that wacky unconditional logic of yours works.

Please show where election is contingent on something you do, say or think. The Bible is specific. You are called according to the "purposes of God".

 

[Presby02]

The instrumental cause as even Calvin admit

Faith as an Instrumental cause


John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).


That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of


John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).


Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states


3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit



L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.

There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and regeneration , faith and salvation

There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed

And it's caused by God. "You are saved by grace, THROUGH faith."

"It is not of yourselves"

 

[Presby02]

I know it as we had our share of disagreements and can verify what was stated

That's a long way from claiming expertise.

 

[Presby02]

I do every day

In those forum? LOL

 

[Presby02]

Civic, it won’t matter what you do, it is easier for him to attack you rather than defend his position. We know the truth of what you were and his acceptance of it is irrelevant to the truth. A whole line of us who knew you back on CARM can affirm your accounts, but he will never allow himself to concede the point.

Doug

Your right. There is nothing to concede. He claims hes a expert on Reformed theology. If he was over there he should have brought with him over hear. LOL

 

[TomL]

That's a long way from claiming expertise.

The point under discussion is that Civic held to and espoused Calvinist theology

 

[TomL]

And it's caused by God. "You are saved by grace, THROUGH faith."

"It is not of yourselves"

God does not believe or trust for you so believing must be from yourself

Salvation is not of yourself, and it is not of works

It is absurd to imagine one might hold faith comes from works

 

[TomL]

Then stop doing it.

You have provided no evidence of such

 

[TomL]

No conditions are given for becoming elect. You don't become elect and nowhere does the Bible teach you do. You were elect from the foundation of the world. That was easy.

Sorry election is in Christ as are all spiritual blessing pertaining to salvation


Ephesians 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


The Calvinist view of election and regeneration lack sufficient Christology and transpire outside of Christ

 

[Presby02]

The point under discussion is that Civic held to and espoused Calvinist theology

Actually my beef was his claim of expertise since he allegedly was a Calvinist for 40 years.

 

[Presby02]

You have provided no evidence of such

Of what? Your not stopping? I read your posts. LOL