praise_yeshua
Active Member
Please share what is "escaping me".....
Jesus didn't "set aside" His Glory. It was vailed. Such is mentioned relative to Moses seeing God on the Mountain...... in receiving the law. Such was "glorious".
The Eternal Son
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Please share what is "escaping me".....
Jesus didn't "set aside" His Glory. It was vailed. Such is mentioned relative to Moses seeing God on the Mountain...... in receiving the law. Such was "glorious".
DavidTree
Active Member
If JESUS did not set aside His Eternal Glory of the WORD that was God, then why did HE pray thusly:
I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
What glory do you expect such to be?
There was great glory to be seen in what Christ did after this prayer. This world got to see the very Character of God in Humility.
In Humility is great glory. This world does see humility as such. Men love to rule others. They transpose their own character upon the Character of God.
@FreeInChrist
Maybe I should have said Good morning sister! After reading some posit from you, I now see who you are.
DavidTree
Active Member
JESUS desired His Glory back = which is the Glory we will see when we are "face to face"
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I'll take that but go a little further. Detail what Glory you're expecting please.....
You're caught in between choices here. You should recognize this for what it is.
What Christ was referencing in "Glory" includes several different characteristics of the relationship the Son had with the Father in the past. We know the Father was WITH Christ during his battle in the Atonement.
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
DavidTree
Active Member
Good Post
However there is a LOL on this: "You're caught in between choices here."
Thank You for the first lol of the morning my Brother
Since when is Christ caught between two choices???
And don't say: "I was referring to you, not Christ"
Christ is the ONE who is from Eternity = therefore you and i have no idea of how Great the Glory IS that HE Returned to
Yet, we are given a real good View in Revelation
DavidTree
Active Member
There is only One Person when referring to Jesus Christ= the Word that was God in the Beginning
@FreeInChrist
Last edited:
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@DavidTree I responded to you with the following.
What exactly do you understand begotten to mean?
The very first thing that pops up in the drop down list. This I understood from grade school was the meaning because this was what they used to teach the children.
- Past participle of beget.
- (of offspring) generated by procreation.
and on this one I do.
I also cannot control the definitions given to promote and idea.
Eternal Generation and Eternal Begotten have zero ties to my mind....
The Greek word "γεγεννηκα" (gegenneka) translates to "have begotten" or "have brought forth," indicating the act of fathering or causing to arise. It is often used in a biblical context to refer to God's relationship with Jesus, as seen in passages like Acts 13:33.
So back to what was in that article.
"There is still one divine essence that eternally exists in two persons through eternal generation."
This, in no way , can be said of begotten. The only possible way would be for someone to add to the actual meaning of the word, which does seem to be an ongoing process. There is no way that "generated by procreation." Happened before Mary.
Look at
Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”? And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
He said You are My Son, Today I have begotten you. IT DOES NOT SAY You are my begotten Son. WHY?
also said
I will be to Him a Father and He shall be to Me a Son. SHOULD IT NOT SAY I am His Father and He is My Son?
The answer is no because this is different then eternal. These were current into the future.
There is still one divine essence that eternally exists in two persons through eternal generation. Reformed theologian Louis Berkhof states the doctrine of eternal generation in this way:
It is that eternal and necessary act of the first person in the Trinity, whereby He, within the divine Being, is the ground of a second personal subsistence like His own, and puts this second person in possession of the whole divine essence, without any division, alienation, or change (Systematic Theology, Eerdmans, 1938, p. 94).
So, we see that eternal generation is an act performed by the First Person of the Trinity. Furthermore, this act by the First Person is necessarily and eternally performed. Finally, the result of this act is the generation of the Second Person of the Trinity in such a way that the entire divine essence is communicated from the Father to the Son.
I had also said
This has nothing to do with the Begotten Son. It has to do with the eternal generation.
BecauseThere is still one divine essence that eternally exists in two persons through eternal generation.
Which is (copied from above)
It is that eternal and necessary act of the first person in the Trinity, whereby He, within the divine Being, is the ground of a second personal subsistence like His own, and puts this second person in possession of the whole divine essence, without any division, alienation, or change (Systematic Theology, Eerdmans, 1938, p. 94).
So, we see that eternal generation is an act performed by the First Person of the Trinity. Furthermore, this act by the First Person is necessarily and eternally performed. Finally, the result of this act is the generation of the Second Person of the Trinity in such a way that the entire divine essence is communicated from the Father to the Son.
There is still one divine essence that eternally exists in two persons through eternal generation
There are 3. WE KNOW that. But only 2 of the 3 have a "father/son" relationship. Never once have you read the Holy Spirit was begotten. He is the 3rd. Each has their own , shall we say job, to do. But the Father and the Son are inexplicably tied
together in ways we will never understand. It falls under eternal generation which in and of itself is an indepth study.
We have read that Jesus has been said to be in the likness of the Father. In fact it was from Colossians i:15 Christ is the exact likeness of the unseen God.
You, no one has ever read the same said of the Holy Spirit. Father and Son are the same essence, the same likeness, the same substance . It is the Father who is the ground of a second personal subsistence like His own,
Father #1 and Son #2 makes 2. Two will be on that throne in Heaven. Not 3... although the Godhead has 3.
There is still one divine essence that eternally exists in two persons through eternal generation.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Let me explain a little further. Rationally, you are caught in your rhetoric between choices.
Can you define the Glory that you're referencing?
I'll add another verse for your consideration....
Luk 12:27 Consider how the flowers grow; they do not work or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these!
This "Glory" various theologies "assume" is different than what it actually is. Glory is relative to what we treasure. What God treasures is different than what we treasure brother.
I think you're missing this in defining "Glory" in describing God. Not complaining. I believe most people do. I have made the mistake myself. This is why I see great Glory in Humility where I once didn't.
If you can accept this, I believe it will change your theology.
Grace ambassador
Active Member
AMEN! I believe the Best Example of That Would Be In The Triune GodHead - ie:
1) The Son Humbled Himself "To Be Sent By The Father" (John 14:26, 15:26 AV)
2) The Holy Spirit Doubly Humbled Himself to "To Be Sent By Both The Father And The SON!"
(John 14:26, 16:7, 13 AV)
Amen.
DavidTree
Active Member
i LOVE this post of yours and when i get back from the hair cut, i will respond
BIG Thank You @praise_yeshua
DavidTree
Active Member
i've been working in this heat wave and at my age it drains me.
Later today - ok - thanks
DavidTree
Active Member
Challenge accepted - Thank You
Can man, any man, define the Glory that he was not privy to see??? = Glory BEFORE, not after
No one but the LORD Himself knows of the Glory HE had before laying it aside and coming to earth.
This leaves everyone with only one path by which we can pursue such an unseen endeavor that Transcends Time, Place and Knowledge.
This Path is Called "The WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE" = "The WORD that was God at the beginning"
Within Genesis to Revelation is the ONLY Source given to us to examine and to pray for understanding.
The only place in Scripture of the Heavenly Glory of, the Word that was God, is in Revelation chapter 1 and yet even that is not all encompassing.
Notice that this is earthbound 'glory' = Solomon at his peak/slender and the flowers growing = "they do not work or spin!!!
JESUS is declaring that the seeming simplest and weakest structure of the Creation is far Superior to man's ingenuity.
Man lives on an enclosed environment. Man cannot create, he can only use or abuse that which God created for us.
Notice God's Wrath upon mankind who abused His Creation for self-serving means filled with a lust for power and
hatred towards "man made in the image of God'. = Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Summation: There was Glory that only ELOHIM and perhaps the angels were privy to BEFORE the world was created.
We are privy to this: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory,
Glory Defined: "the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
This "glory" includes all that Christ displayed on earth, as a man who Fulfilled the Father's Good Pleasure where Adam failed.
SHALOM
Last edited:
DavidTree
Active Member
Who are these "two persons" that you are speaking of???
dwight92070
Active Member
Instead of making up a confusing unBiblical doctrine, we could simply accept what Gabriel told Mary in Luke 1:35, giving us the true reason whey Jesus, at birth, was called the Son of God. Nothing like that had ever happened before, so we know that He was not the Son of God until He was born. References to "the Son" before His birth appear as prophecies foretelling His birth.Good morning @Red Baker,
Unless I am mistaken, you are off on vacation and possibly will not see this reply.
I had posted this in this very subject and having read your reply to Duane felt I should reply to you with a reply that comes from a source that is very within keeping of yours on predestination... Got Questions.
I had been searching eternal generation. Not for what I found but I had one of those lightbulb moments, but I did find this and
lets see why you will find fault with it.
What is the doctrine of eternal generation and is it biblical?
Answer
The doctrine of eternal generation harkens back to the early stages of the Christian church. This doctrine, along with the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit, form the basis for the complete doctrine of the Trinity. This doctrine was codified in the Nicene Creed, which is universally accepted as an accurate statement of faith in both Roman Catholic and Protestant churches. Furthermore, this doctrine has also been included in such Reformation confessions of faith as the Belgic Confession (Articles X & XI) and the Westminster Confession of Faith (Chapter II.3). These two confessions stand as the doctrinal standard for many Reformed and Presbyterian churches worldwide.
When discussing the Trinity, we are immediately confronted with the fact that it is a doctrine clouded in mystery. As finite, created beings, we will never be able to fully comprehend the doctrine of the Trinity; it is simply beyond our ability to fully comprehend. All human analogies used to explain the Trinity break down at some level. So, we need humility as we try to explain these things. We should not attempt to go further than the Scriptures warrant. Every heresy concerning the Trinity has arisen out of an attempt to explain the inexplicable.
With that said, let’s review what is commonly believed within evangelical circles in regards to the doctrine of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity makes four basic assertions:
1. There is one and only one true and living God.
2. This one God eternally exists in three Persons—God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
3. These three Persons are completely equal in attributes, each sharing the same divine nature.
4. While each Person is fully and completely God, the Persons are not identical.
These four claims are universally accepted by all professing Christians whether Roman Catholic or Protestant. Each of these four claims can be defended with Scripture. If we accept these as true, then we should be able to compare the doctrine of eternal generation against these and see if it holds up.
The doctrine of eternal generation essentially teaches that God the Father eternally and by necessity generates or begets God the Son in such a way that the substance (the divine essence) of God is not divided. In other words, there is a communication of the whole, indivisible substance of the Godhead so that God the Son is the exact representation (or express image) of God the Father. There is still one divine essence that eternally exists in two persons through eternal generation. Reformed theologian Louis Berkhof states the doctrine of eternal generation in this way:
It is that eternal and necessary act of the first person in the Trinity, whereby He, within the divine Being, is the ground of a second personal subsistence like His own, and puts this second person in possession of the whole divine essence, without any division, alienation, or change (Systematic Theology, Eerdmans, 1938, p. 94).
So, we see that eternal generation is an act performed by the First Person of the Trinity. Furthermore, this act by the First Person is necessarily and eternally performed. Finally, the result of this act is the generation of the Second Person of the Trinity in such a way that the entire divine essence is communicated from the Father to the Son.
Because of this act of eternal generation, the relational terms Father and Son are used to identify the First and Second Persons of the Trinity. The Father eternally generates the Son, and the Son (having no beginning or end) is eternally generated by the Father. This is similar to human generation (which, we note, is neither eternal nor necessary) in that human fathers also “generate” or “beget” human sons in their own image.
The doctrine of eternal generation is sometimes attacked on the basis that the idea of begetting implies a creation in time or that it suggests an ontological dependence. In response, we note that all human analogies regarding the Trinity eventually break down, so we can’t carry our analogies too far. Also, the qualifiers eternally and necessarily should remove any concerns of a temporal or subordinate relationship between the Father and the Son. The qualifier eternal removes this relationship from the constraints of time and space; there was no beginning, and will be no end to the generation of the Son from the Father. The qualifier necessarily removes any ontological dependence between the Father and the Son; the Son must be generated from the Father, and the Father must generate the Son.
(Of course, Got Questions got their predestined bias into this so I'll leave the following paragraph for those of you who are.
I myself do not subscribe to this (following) as they present things)
The terms Father and Son do more than analogize the relationship between the First and Second Person of the Trinity; they also help explain a theological truth. There is a hierarchical and functional order being described here—one that defines the activity of Father and Son in the economy of creation and salvation. The Father speaks the universe into existence, and the Son is the agent of that creation. The Father elects the chosen unto salvation, and the Son provides the necessary atonement. The Father sends the Son, and not the other way around. This hierarchy of role and function in no way diminishes the ontological equality between the Father and the Son; they are both essentially God, sharing equally in the full divine essence. So, the terms Father and Son, far from being a mere anthropomorphism, go to the heart of defining this necessary and eternal relationship. As such, the doctrine of eternal generation is clearly in line with our four assertions concerning the Trinity, above.
Is this doctrine supported in Scripture? Consider the following verses:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14)
“No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.” (John 1:18)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)
“For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.” (John 5:26)
“Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.” (John 14:11)
“That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” (John 17:21)
“He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.” (Hebrews 1:3)
The thrust of these verses, as they apply to the Trinity, is to suggest that the relationship between Father and Son has existed for all eternity and is grounded in ontological equality. Also worth consideration are the words of the Nicene Creed and the Westminster Confession of Faith as they pertain to eternal generation:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. (Nicene Creed)
In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. (WCF, II.3)
Based on Scripture and the witness of the creeds and confessions, we can be sure that the doctrine of eternal generation is biblical.
We should not expect every believer to have a fully mature grasp of this doctrine. The doctrine of the Trinity—including the doctrine of eternal generation—is the centerpiece of orthodox theology and should be affirmed by every true believer, but it is not a requirement for a true confession of faith. In other words, salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8). As one studies the Christian faith, one will come to a more mature understanding of this doctrine.
DavidTree
Active Member
Who are these "two persons" you keep speaking of???
FreeInChrist
Active Member
That would be the first in the Trinity. By whatever name you want to call Him because he is all of them. So let's just say The God.
That would be the second in the Trinity. Again by whatever you call him. Word, Son, Jesus.....
If you do not believe in the trinity, then you will not agree. There are only 3 divine in the Trinity... There have never been more.
But the relationship between the first two is a mystery.
They share the same essence. This is not my conclusion but from other sources.
They share the same substance. Again from other sources
One eternal generation. The following you can click on and read at your leisure for I am finished trying to explain what
you do not comprehend.
What is the doctrine of eternal generation and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org
What is the doctrine of eternal generation and is it biblical? Is God the Father eternally generating God the Son?
www.gotquestions.org
The doctrine of eternal generation harkens back to the early stages of the Christian church.
It arises directly from scriptural statements about the Son's unique nature and is rooted in the early Church's firm refusal to make the Son merely a creature. Properly understood, Eternal Generation guards the unity of the one divine essence, honors the distinctive Persons of the Trinity
What Is Eternal Generation? | Tabletalk
One of the most essential doctrines for a Christian understanding of the Trinity is eternal generation. When the equality of the Son with the Father was thrown into question in the fourth century, the church fathers turned to the doctrine of eternal generation.
tabletalkmagazine.com
Eternal generation of the Son - Wikipedia
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/is-the-eternal-generation-of-the-son-a-biblical-idea/
As a thought experiment, I decided to examine the evidence for eternal generation in the writings of one of the most important trinitarian theologians in the early church—-Augustine of Hippo (354-430).
As I explored his discussion, I discovered that Augustine’s case for eternal generation does not depend on the mistranslation of monogenes but is deeply rooted in the way Scripture portrays the relation of the Son to the Father. I was surprised by the breadth of biblical evidence Augustine marshaled. Although one might assume that Augustine’s commitment to eternal generation is merely rooted in a handful of dubious “proof texts,” nothing could be further from the truth. This doctrine is rooted in a rigorous and comprehensive Trinitarian hermeneutic.
Forever and Always the Son: Why We Treasure Eternal Generation
What does it mean that the Son of God was “eternally begotten,” and why is eternal generation massively important for Christians?
www.desiringgod.org
Eternal generation means we don't bring all our ideas about sonship and apply them to him; we learn from the eternally begotten one what he means by calling himself the Son of God. Why This Is Important How important is eternal generation? Its fundamental value is that it tells the truth
The Eternal Generation of the Son - Is it Biblical?
Eternal Generation explains "begotten" in such a way that the Son is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father.
revelationbyjesuschrist.com
Eternal Generation explains "begotten" in such a way that the Son is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father.
What is the Doctrine of Eternal Generation? - Phoenix Seminary
The doctrine of the Trinity can be an intimidating one for Christians. At the same time, it is a teaching that brings extraordinary riches to the Christian life. It helps us to know and worship God truly, and it helps us to understand who we are as those united to Christ by…
ps.edu
the church fathers appealed to the scriptural teaching that the Son is not a creature external to God but is the eternal offspring of the Father and proper to the very essence of God.
Trinity and Eternal Generation: Survey and Discussion - Think In Christ
Following the previous article on the limitations of theology, we look at a more specific issue here, concerning the tri-unity of God and eternal generation. The central question is: whether eternal generation is essential to the biblical teaching on the tri-unity of God? Is eternal generation...
thinkinchrist.org
"Eternal generation" aims to explain what "eternal sonship" means, or how "eternal sonship" comes about.
DavidTree
Active Member
"he is all of them" is Modalism = One person who can change Mode from Father to Son to Holy Spirit
JESUS is not "all three of Them"
Who are the "two persons" that you posted???
