101G is trying to convince us that the Lord Jesus and God the Father are the same one person. That is modalism.
Excellent word by word analysis of John 1:1
- Thread starter synergy
- Start date
They share the same God nature but they are distinct persons. Sorry, your modalism is not found anywhere in the Bible.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
Being in the form of God (ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων)
Being. Not the simple είναι to be, but stronger, denoting being which is from the beginning. See on Jas_2:15. It has a backward look into an antecedent condition, which has been protracted into the present. Here appropriate to the preincarnate being of Christ, to which the sentence refers. In itself it does not imply eternal, but only prior existence. Form (μορφή). We must here dismiss from our minds the idea of shape. The word is used in its philosophic sense, to denote that expression of being which carries in itself the distinctive nature and character of the being to whom it pertains, and is thus permanently identified with that nature and character. Thus it is distinguished from σχῆμα fashion, comprising that which appeals to the senses and which is changeable. Μορφή form is identified with the essence of a person or thing: σχῆμα fashion is an accident which may change without affecting the form. For the manner in which this difference is developed in the kindred verbs, see on Mat_17:2.
As applied here to God, the word is intended to describe that mode in which the essential being of God expresses itself. We have no word which can convey this meaning, nor is it possible for us to formulate the reality. Form inevitably carries with it to us the idea of shape. It is conceivable that the essential personality of God may express itself in a mode apprehensible by the perception of pure spiritual intelligences; but the mode itself is neither apprehensible nor conceivable by human minds.
This mode of expression, this setting of the divine essence, is not identical with the essence itself, but is identified with it, as its natural and appropriate expression, answering to it in every particular. It is the perfect expression of a perfect essence. It is not something imposed from without, but something which proceeds from the very depth of the perfect being, and into which that being perfectly unfolds, as light from fire. To say, then, that Christ was in the form of God, is to say that He existed as essentially one with God. The expression of deity through human nature (Php_2:7) thus has its background in the expression of deity as deity in the eternal ages of God's being. Whatever the mode of this expression, it marked the being of Christ in the eternity before creation. As the form of God was identified with the being of God, so Christ, being in the form of God, was identified with the being, nature, and personality of God.
This form, not being identical with the divine essence, but dependent upon it, and necessarily implying it, can be parted with or laid aside. Since Christ is one with God, and therefore pure being, absolute existence, He can exist without the form. This form of God Christ laid aside in His incarnation.
Thought it not robbery to be equal with God (οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ)
Robbery is explained in three ways. 1. A robbing, the act. 2. The thing robbed, a piece of plunder. 3. A prize, a thing to be grasped. Here in the last sense.
Paul does not then say, as A.V., that Christ did not think it robbery to be equal with God: for, 1, that fact goes without. saying in the previous expression, being in the form of God. 2. On this explanation the statement is very awkward. Christ, being in the form of God, did not think it robbery to be equal with God; but, after which we should naturally expect, on the other hand, claimed and asserted equality: whereas the statement is: Christ was in the form of God and did not think it robbery to be equal with God, but (instead) emptied Himself. Christ held fast His assertion of divine dignity, but relinquished it. The antithesis is thus entirely destroyed.
Taking the word ἁρπαγμὸν (A.V., robbery) to mean a highly prized possession, we understand Paul to say that Christ, being, before His incarnation, in the form of God, did not regard His divine equality as a prize which was to be grasped at and retained at all hazards, but, on the contrary, laid aside the form of God, and took upon Himself the nature of man. The emphasis in the passage is upon Christ's humiliation. The fact of His equality with God is stated as a background, in order to throw the circumstances of His incarnation into stronger relief. Hence the peculiar form of Paul's statement Christ's great object was to identify Himself with humanity; not to appear to men as divine but as human. Had He come into the world emphasizing His equality with God, the world would have been amazed, but not saved He did not grasp at this. The rather He counted humanity His prize, and so laid aside the conditions of His preexistent state, and became man.
MV
101G
Well-known member
GINOLJC, to all,
Your first ERROR of this day, there is no they, lol, lol, lol, oh how IGNORANT. now, finding "diversity" is in the bible... (smile), but your belief is not. now let's prove this out by scriptures. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
the Word was "with" God. synergy, is the word and God two separate person, since the Word was "with" God?" yes or no.
101G
Allow me to interject for a moment-
Joh 1:1 In the beginning [of the ages] was [already pre-existent] the Word [Christ], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Gen_1:1)
Joh 1:1 The Beginning
In [the]G1722 Prep En Ἐν N1 beginningG746 N-DFS archē ἀρχῇ wasG1510 V-IIA-3S ēn ἦν theG3588 Art-NMS ho ὁ Word,G3056 N-NMS Logos, Λόγος, andG2532 Conj kai καὶ theG3588 Art-NMS ho ὁ WordG3056 N-NMS Logos Λόγος wasG1510 V-IIA-3S ēn ἦν withG4314 Prep pros πρὸς -G3588 Art-AMS ton τὸν God,G2316 N-AMS Theon, Θεόν, andG2532 Conj kai καὶ GodG2316 N-NMS Theos Θεὸς wasG1510 V-IIA-3S ēn ἦν theG3588 Art-NMS ho ὁ Word.G3056 N-NMS Logos. Λόγος.
Transliteration: pros
Morphology: Prep
Preposition
Strong's no.: G4314 (πρός)
Meaning: To, towards, with.
With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1Jn_2:1 we have a like use of pros: “We have a Paraclete with the Father” (paraklēton echomen pros ton patera). See prosōpon pros prosōpon (face to face, 1Co_13:12), a triple use of pros.
There is a papyrus example of pros in this sense to gnōston tēs pros allēlous sunētheias, “the knowledge of our intimacy with one another” (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pros here and in Mar_6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koiné, not old Attic. In Joh_17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom.
RW
Echad-yet distinct.
101G
Well-known member
see if you follow me here, if 101G say he is going on stage, is 101G on stage? no, but if 101G say I'm on stage, is 101G on stage? yes. that's present tense. now being in the Form of God is that present tense.... YES, so being is present tense, indicative of the time when it is spoke,,,, correct.
now the "EQUAL WITH" Question, is there anyone EQUAL "To" God NO. Isaiah 40:18 "To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?" here God said he's a "SINGLE PERSON", him is ONE PERSON. NOW THIS, Isaiah 46:5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?"
see there is no we, or they as PERSONS when it comes to God. PLEASE RE-REREAD THESE VERSES
101G.
101G
Well-known member
FACE to FACE, HOW? next you have a problem. Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
the EXPRESS IMAGE of, of, of, his, his, his, Person is the same PERSON, for express means "EXACT".... it's the same one person.
now, you're close..... think outside the box for a second. if this FACE to FACE is correct, is it in Person or Nature. which one? to help you out remember Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
101G.
101G
Well-known member
@Johann, and all who follow this topic.
the sticking point is a plurality in "PERSONS", or "NATURE". this is what separates us. let's clear this up and then we will see what God been saying all along about himself. if we can resolve the PERSONS vs NATURE, the bible will be clear as day.
now, if 101G can prove by Scripture that God is a PLURILITY in Nature instead of person, or vise versa, then there will be no division.... agreed?
101G
the sticking point is a plurality in "PERSONS", or "NATURE". this is what separates us. let's clear this up and then we will see what God been saying all along about himself. if we can resolve the PERSONS vs NATURE, the bible will be clear as day.
now, if 101G can prove by Scripture that God is a PLURILITY in Nature instead of person, or vise versa, then there will be no division.... agreed?
101G
They were with each other. Two distinct persons who share the same God nature.
101G
Well-known member
ok, let's put it to the test, PERSONS, or NATURE. Hebrews 1:9 "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"
now tell us, did the "Lord", whom you call the Son, (here in Hebrews), as the scriptures states LAID the Foundation of the EARTH, this is ONE person correct? .... correct. ok good, now this, Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."
now, is the "LORD", (whom you call Father, one person), is he the same person "Lord", (whom you call son, another person), is the same one Person who LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH. yes or NO, if no please explain.....
101G.
The very image of his substance (charaktēr tēs hupostaseōs). Charaktēr is an old word from charassō, to cut, to scratch, to mark. It first was the agent (note ending = tēr) or tool that did the marking, then the mark or impress made, the exact reproduction, a meaning clearly expressed by charagma (Act_17:29; Rev_13:16.).
Menander had already used (Moffatt) charaktēr in the sense of our “character.” The word occurs in the inscriptions for “person” as well as for “exact reproduction” of a person.
The word hupostasis for the being or essence of God “is a philosophical rather than a religious term” (Moffatt). Etymologically it is the sediment or foundation under a building (for instance). In Heb_11:1 hypostasis is like the “title-deed” idea found in the papyri. Athanasius rightly used Heb_1:1-4 in his controversy with Arius. Paul in Php_2:5-11 pictures the real and eternal deity of Christ free from the philosophical language here employed. But even Paul’s simpler phrase morphē theou (the form of God) has difficulties of its own. The use of Logos in John 1:1-18 is parallel to Heb_1:1-4.
And upholding (pherōn te). Present active participle of pherō closely connected with ōn (being) by te and like Col_1:17 in idea. The newer science as expounded by Eddington and Jeans is in harmony with the spiritual and personal conception of creation here presented.
RWP
The express image of his person (χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ)
Rend the very image (or impress) of his substance The primary sense of ὑπόστασις substance is something which stands underneath; foundation, ground of hope or confidence, and so assurance itself.
In a philosophical sense, substantial nature; the real nature of anything which underlies and supports its outward form and properties.
In N.T., 2Co_9:4; 2Co_11:17, Heb_3:14; Heb_11:1, signifying in every instance ground of confidence or confidence In lxx, it represents fifteen different words, and, in some cases, it is hard to understand its meaning notably 1Sa_13:21. In Rth_1:12, Psa_37:8, Eze_19:5, it means ground of hope: in Jdg_6:4, Wisd. 16:21, sustenance in Psa_38:5; Psa_136:15, the substance or material of the human frame: in 1Sa_13:23; Eze_26:11, an outpost or garrison: in Deu_11:6; Job_22:20, possessions.
The theological sense, person, is later than the apostolic age. Here, substantial nature, essence. Χαρακτὴρ from χαράσσειν to engrave or inscribe, originally a graving-tool; also the die on which a device is cut. It seems to have lost that meaning, and always signifies the impression made by the die or graver. Hence, mark, stamp, as the image on a coin (so often) which indicates its nature and value, or the device impressed by a signet. N.T.o. lxx, Lev_13:28; 2 Macc. 4:10; 4 Macc. 15:4. The kindred χάραγμα mark, Act_17:29; Rev_13:16, Rev_13:17. Here the essential being of God is conceived as setting its distinctive stamp upon Christ, coming into definite and characteristic expression in his person, so that the Son bears the exact impress of the divine nature and character.
VWS
Guess this is where I disagree with you-Character/Person/Nature
What is the meaning of pros?
101G
Well-known member
no problem in disagreement, let the bible be your and my Guide. so let's discuss. as I asked synergy see post #31 above.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
@synergy,
to help you out only ONE "PERSON" laid the Foundation of the Earth. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." Isaiah 48:13 "Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together."
I and MINE are single person designations. "ONE" person.
101G.
to help you out only ONE "PERSON" laid the Foundation of the Earth. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." Isaiah 48:13 "Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together."
I and MINE are single person designations. "ONE" person.
101G.
civic
Well-known member
ditto They are not each other.
101G
Well-known member
maybe you can tell them who Laid the Foundation of the Earth, the One person whom you Calls the Father, title "LORD", or the ONE PERSON, whom you calls the Son, title "Lord".
101G
48:12 "I am He, I am the first, I am also the last" This is a recurrent idiom in Isaiah (cf. Isa. 41:4; 44:6) and becomes a common designation for Christ in Rev. 1:8,17; 22:13! It denotes the God of creation (Isa. 48:13) and eternity. Eternity past, eternity future. The only God is YHWH.
Special Topic: Monotheism
48:14 "Assemble, all of you" This command to gather (BDB 867, KB 1062, Niphal imperative) refers to "O Jacob, even Israel" of v. 12.
"Who among them has declared these things" The "who" seems, in context, to refer to the astrologers, false prophets, and enchanters of Isa. 47:11. YHWH shows His reality by His predictions and actions, which surprised the hearers.
The things declared have to do with His judgment on Babylon by Cyrus II (Persia), cf. v. 16.
48:15 The first phrase ("I, even I, have spoken," BDB 180, KB 210, Piel perfect) is a way of accepting the power of YHWH's spoken word (cf. Isa. 55:11). His purposes cannot be thwarted!
48:16
NASB "now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit"
NKJV "and now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me"
NRSV "and now the Lord God has sent me and his spirit"
TEV "Now the Sovereign Lord has given me his power and sent Me"
NJB "and now the Lord Yahweh has sent me with his spirit"
JPSOA "and now the Lord God has sent me, endowed with His Spirit"
LXX "and now the Lord has sent me and his spirit"
Wow! How many persons and who are they who are being mentioned? Who is the speaker? Obviously one is YHWH. His Spirit is probably the same as Gen. 1:2; Isa. 11:2; 42:1; 61:1. But who is the "me"?
the "I" of line 3, YHWH
the prophet Isaiah
the Messiah (or the Servant)
Cyrus II (as if speaking), vv. 14-15
Christians can easily see the Trinity in this text. The same three persons are mentioned again in Isa. 61:1.
Don't want to derail your thread-
civic
Well-known member
YHWH laid the foundation, Kurios, Theos.
Scripture declares both Father/Son were actively involved in Creation. The Holy Spirit too.
hope this helps !!!
A question-if you will permit me-do you believe that Christ Jesus existed/Haya WITH YHVH BEFORE He became something He was not before-in the likeness of man?-talking about the pre-existence of Messiah here and He was not a created being-just to clarify.
