Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Jim]

I would urge you to pray seriously to God, because every unbeliever thinks the Scripture is "weird."

So you think I am an unbeliever since I think what you believe is weird. That is weird.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then you weren't saved when you thought you were. God keeps His promises. And if He gives an "IF/THEN" promise, it ALWAYS means IF/THEN. He doesn't give the "THEN" if the "IF" is missing.

Sure I was. I experienced the new birth. It was miraculous. Always is.

I am dealing with what you wrote. We don't get the down payment until we are saved/in Christ/forgiven/redeemed. And that happens while we are buried with Him in baptism, not before.

Do you remember when David begged God to not take the Spirit away from him? You must realize that David loved the presence of God. I do too. I don't need you to tell me when I experienced/experience such. I know when.

We are not going to agree on this. Never have. What I want to deal with is the very fact of the "down payment".

So then, if there were many who were in Christ and fell away, then their salvation was lost, and it can continue to happen today. OSAS is a false doctrine.

I don't teach "OSAS". Not my doctrine. Apostasy isn't about losing salvation. It is about the continuation of the message of God. The teaching of God. You're actually in apostasy yourself. I don't judge you as being absent the Spirit of God.

Yes, there is the need for endurance, and forgiveness. That is not at issue. What James is addressing is that if a person is unrepentant, then they are lost. But if a faithful brother or sister turns them back to repentance, then they are saved from Hell and turned back to life.

So lets get into this a little deeper.....

So tell me when you become lost. Give me a distinct answer. Don't tell me that you are being chasten for sin and lost. Those two things don't go together. God chastens those that are sons.

I would to God that some Ariminian would actually define such.

There is a sin unto to death, but even then, I don't believe such is actually an disqualifying event.

So lets keep going.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So you think I am an unbeliever since I think what you believe is weird. That is weird.

I Jim, @Red Baker @TibiasDad @civic

Thank you all for the prayers!

I lost all my alerts somehow. I saw several in there I think from you previously. They might expire. I don't see any of my history anymore.

If I owe you anything, please let me know.

Thanks

 

[Jim]

I don't think it's salvific.

But Christians do not realize what the Judgment Seat of Christ means.

The Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ is not to determine between eternal life and eternal condemnation. That is determined and settled before one dies and is resurrected. All, those who have received eternal life and those who have not, will be called to answer for what he has done. We are justified by faith, but yet judged by works. We are not given much information about this judgment, but we can perhaps get a sense of it from the passage in Revelation 20:11-15.

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

There we read that there are books and a book to be opened. The first books appear to contain a record of our life, the second book, the book of life, contains a list of those who, during their physical life here on earth, received eternal life. The phrase, "judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds", would seem to indicate that there will be a range of rewards, both in heaven and in hell.

 

[Jim]

Sure I was. I experienced the new birth. It was miraculous. Always is.

Just as an aside, it wasn't miraculous. Biblical miracles, strictly speaking, are (1) physically performed by a human being, (2) physically and visibly witnessed by other human beings, and (3) actions which are counter to God's natural laws of nature. Their purpose is always, primarily, to give divine legitimacy to what the one performing the miracle is about to say or do. The new birth is not something that may be witnessed physically.

The new birth is a spiritual act of redemption by God. John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

 

[praise_yeshua]

Just as an aside, it wasn't miraculous. Biblical miracles, strictly speaking, are (1) physically performed by a human being, (2) physically and visibly witnessed by other human beings, and (3) actions which are counter to God's natural laws of nature. Their purpose is always, primarily, to give divine legitimacy to what the one performing the miracle is about to say or do. The new birth is not something that may be witnessed physically.

The new birth is a spiritual act of redemption by God. John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The wind has a source and has a destination. Just because you can't see it with your eyes doesn't mean it is supernatural. I personally don't believe the word "supernatural" and the way it is used relates much of anything. It comes from Latin and simply means "from above". Everything good comes from above. This includes love and many good things which reside in nature.

When I said miraculous, it is good to note that Teras and Terra have a connection in Greek and Latin to creation itself.

I experienced the creation of the new creature. I can list several ways they similar in the earth. You shouldn't discount the similarities. After all, Peter spoke of how the Word of God formed this earth. In similar fashion, it formed in me a new creature. I felt it. I more than felt it. I'm still feeling it many years later. It is never ending drink of life itself. Miraculous. Always is.

 

[civic]

The wind has a source and has a destination. Just because you can't see it with your eyes doesn't mean it is supernatural. I personally don't believe the word "supernatural" and the way it is used relates much of anything. It comes from Latin and simply means "from above". Everything good comes from above. This includes love and many good things which reside in nature.

When I said miraculous, it is good to note that Teras and Terra have a connection in Greek and Latin to creation itself.

I experienced the creation of the new creature. I can list several ways they similar in the earth. You shouldn't discount the similarities. After all, Peter spoke of how the Word of God formed this earth. In similar fashion, it formed in me a new creature. I felt it. I more than felt it. I'm still feeling it many years later. It is never ending drink of life itself. Miraculous. Always is.

And we know the gospel is the very power of God unto salvation as per Romans 1:16-17. That power is supernatural, miraculous

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I am not interfering with God in any way (as if I had the power to do so).

yes you are

by replacing the baptism of the spirit. which God said he will do

with baptism in water. by the hands of men

Quit coming up with nonsensical "logic" questions, and address Scripture.
Does God not say that confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS in receiving salvation? (Rom 10:9-10)
Does God not also say that we die to sin in baptism? (Rom 6:1-7)

This is spirit baptism. not water baptism

it say you were literally baptized into christ. not water

Does God not also say that we must repent of sin in order to receive forgiveness of it? (Acts 3:19)
Is all of Scripture not always true, all at the same time?
This means that all of these are equally true, and equally required.

except for your works you tried to replace with the work of God.. you may have had it

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, He did frequently, and He still does today. Read the passages I cited above.

yes he does

he is still in covenant with israel

And he is still in covenant with everyone to which he gave eternal life too.

Yet you claim "belief" is all that is required. Why are you changing your tune all of a sudden?

Actually faith.

try to listen

Believing the Gospel means believing AND having faith/trust in Jesus. Trusting that His death is enough to provide salvation, and that He will do what He says. This means trusting that when He says that IF we repent He will forgive us (Acts 3:19), IF we confess Him as Lord He will give us salvation, and IF we are baptized we will be saved (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, etc.).

So it is not possible to "believe in the Gospel" and yet not believe that Jesus' death was enough.

again, Water baptism does not save

spirit baptism does

maybe someday you will see this.. But I am worried you may not

 

[Jim]

yes you are

by replacing the baptism of the spirit. which God said he will do

with baptism in water. by the hands of men

This is spirit baptism. not water baptism

it say you were literally baptized into christ. not water


except for your works you tried to replace with the work of God.. you may have had it

Receiving the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is Spirit baptism.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Receiving the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is Spirit baptism.

Good opportunity here.....

Is spiritual baptism anything less than a literal baptism? If it isn't, then you're creating a distinction that still exists in the tangible world.

The source is just different. The source isn't flesh and blood.

 

[Jim]

Good opportunity here.....

Is spiritual baptism anything less than a literal baptism? If it isn't, then you're creating a distinction that still exists in the tangible world.

The source is just different. The source isn't flesh and blood.

Is Spirit baptism a baptism by the Spirit or with, into the Spirit?

I would argue that you seem to be fighting against the concept of baptismal regeneration as promoted by the RCC and a few protestant denominations. I argue against the concept of baptismal regeneration, but that is not really an argument against water baptism. Water baptism doesn't save, God saves; but God saves when the repentant believer is baptized in water. At that time God forgives the sins of the repentant believer and gives him the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit, It is in the giving of that gift, that the repentant believer is baptized in the Spirit.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Is Spirit baptism a baptism by the Spirit or with, into the Spirit?

I'd say both are true and I'll go even further to say that traits and gifts are passed in the process of this "baptism".

I would argue that you seem to be fighting against the concept of baptismal regeneration as promoted by the RCC and a few protestant denominations. I argue against the concept of baptismal regeneration, but that is not really an argument against water baptism. Water baptism doesn't save, God saves; but God saves when the repentant believer is baptized in water.

I believe there are more requirements for regeneration by the Spirit of God than such. You're wanting to "have you cake and eat it to". I don't have any other motive than to know the Truth in this. No compromises between two flawed choices for me.

Repentance brings regeneration and that takes place after faith is properly placed in Jesus Christ. Somewhere in the process of Salvation faith grows to the point in the individual that God grants repentance in agreement with the mind of the believer.

Timing around "water baptism" is of no consequence in such. I can't see such coordinating in timing with water baptism at all. Educated Calvinists often speak of the lack of a "temporal order" that seems to overlap and occur in no definitive progression that can be properly observed. Such arguments are just excuses to me. Such arguments are a sign that the Calvinist knows he can't actually answer such needed questions.

At that time God forgives the sins of the repentant believer and gives him the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit, It is in the giving of that gift, that the repentant believer is baptized in the Spirit.

As others have said before. I believe in many fillings of the Spirit but only One baptism of the Spirit.

Even then, it is a tangible event. The Holy Spirit often "speaks" and moves upon unbelievers through words that must be discerned before understanding is meet to enable salvation.

1 Corinthians 14

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

There is no understanding without language and communication from one to another. Such is tangible and necessary even when spoken of as originating from the Spirit of God.

 

[Jim]

I believe there are more requirements for regeneration by the Spirit of God than such.

I don't know what you are trying to say there.

Repentance brings regeneration and that takes place after faith is properly placed in Jesus Christ.

But not as a cause and effect.

Somewhere in the process of Salvation faith grows to the point in the individual that God grants repentance in agreement with the mind of the believer.

Again, I don't really know what you are trying to say there.

Timing around "water baptism" is of no consequence in such. I can't see such coordinating in timing with water baptism at all. Educated Calvinists often speak of the lack of a "temporal order" that seems to overlap and occur in no definitive progression that can be properly observed. Such arguments are just excuses to me. Such arguments are a sign that the Calvinist knows he can't actually answer such needed questions.

There is that time in the life of the one who is saved when he ceases to be a sinner lost in sin and has become a saint, one who has been forgiven and given the promise of eternal life. That does not happen gradually; it occurs in an instant. That instant is when God justifies, regenerates and initially sanctifies that individual.

As others have said before. I believe in many fillings of the Spirit but only One baptism of the Spirit.

Yes, the two are not connected in any sense.

Even then, it is a tangible event. The Holy Spirit often "speaks" and moves upon unbelievers through words that must be discerned before understanding is meet to enable salvation.

The Holy Spirit is indeed active in the life of the unbeliever. The message of the gospel is not complicated. It does not require any deep understanding. It is not necessarily easy, but it is not complicated.

1 Corinthians 14

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

There is no understanding without language and communication from one to another. Such is tangible and necessary even when spoken of as originating from the Spirit of God.

If you do not understand the English language, you will not understand much in the English versions of the Bible of in the English spoken teachings from the Bible. And the Bible is the only words to be heard. There is no "still small voice" from God speaking to the sinner.

Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

 

[praise_yeshua]

But not as a cause and effect.

There is never an absence of cause and effect. Man being in a agreement with God is the cause. The effect comes from God.

There is that time in the life of the one who is saved when he ceases to be a sinner lost in sin and has become a saint, one who has been forgiven and given the promise of eternal life. That does not happen gradually; it occurs in an instant. That instant is when God justifies, regenerates and initially sanctifies that individual.

The effect is instant. The cause is gradual. The causes all culminate in the effect.

The Holy Spirit is indeed active in the life of the unbeliever. The message of the gospel is not complicated. It does not require any deep understanding. It is not necessarily easy, but it is not complicated.

The message can be somewhat complicated due the facts of the various circumstances involved. For some people it is rather simple. For others, it is not.

For example, A person who comes from a family of believers might easily understand the requirements that are true to the Gospel. They have probably been told all their lives the essence of the Gospel.

People who are multi-generationally removed from the message of God in the Gospel takes more time and understanding to equal the same cause.

If you do not understand the English language, you will not understand much in the English versions of the Bible of in the English spoken teachings from the Bible. And the Bible is the only words to be heard. There is no "still small voice" from God speaking to the sinner.

Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

I tend to disagree here.

There are many voices in the world concerning the Gospel. While I agree the Gospel is the effective means of salvation, it still must be accurately understood. Hearing is discernment. Hearing first starts with human language but it becomes more than this when combined with the Spirit's Divine actions.

I believe there is a transition that takes please between discerning the Gospel that is the requirement first of the hearer, and when the Spirit "itself" works with the message of the Gospel to refine and produce the "new birth". I believe there is revelation here that takes place that enables a person to "see" things like God sees things. This is where repentance takes place. It is where the mind of man comes into agreement with God so that God "grants" repentance when man acknowledges the Truth of God.

This is a very Holy thing in the process of salvation. It is more than just saying "I changed my mind"......

Both sides in this get it wrong. Not that they don't experience, I believe they do. It is complicated by the baggage of unbelief that has generationally existed since the early church and the apostles.

 

[Jim]

The effect is instant. The cause is gradual. The causes all culminate in the effect.

Huh? Are you sure you haven't reversed cause and effect?

The message can be somewhat complicated due the facts of the various circumstances involved. For some people it is rather simple. For others, it is not.

The message is the message. If anything is complicated it is in the one coming to believe in the message.

For example, A person who comes from a family of believers might easily understand the requirements that are true to the Gospel. They have probably been told all their lives the essence of the Gospel.

People who are multi-generationally removed from the message of God in the Gospel takes more time and understanding to equal the same cause.

That is not due to the message. That is due to any pre-assumed belief of the hearer of the message.

I tend to disagree here.

There are many voices in the world concerning the Gospel. While I agree the Gospel is the effective means of salvation, it still must be accurately understood. Hearing is discernment. Hearing first starts with human language but it becomes more than this when combined with the Spirit's Divine actions.

The typical problem in today's world, and probably the problem almost from the beginning, is that the message is being screwed up by the "preachers" of the message.

I believe there is a transition that takes please between discerning the Gospel that is the requirement first of the hearer, and when the Spirit "itself" works with the message of the Gospel to refine and produce the "new birth". I believe there is revelation here that takes place that enables a person to "see" things like God sees things. This is where repentance takes place. It is where the mind of man comes into agreement with God so that God "grants" repentance when man acknowledges the Truth of God.

I think you are misunderstanding repentance and what the phrase "God grants repentance" means. So far as I can find, the only verse saying that God granted repentance is Acts 11:18 and that essentially is speaking of God accepting the Gentiles into His kingdom through the New Covenant.

This is a very Holy thing in the process of salvation. It is more than just saying "I changed my mind"......

I do certainly agree with that it is more than just saying, "I changed my mind". But I do not think there is a "process of salvation" except that salvation involves God's instantaneously justifying, regenerating and initially sanctifying the repentant believer. There is more often than not a process, sometimes a long process, in one coming to believing and repenting.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Huh? Are you sure you haven't reversed cause and effect?

Nope. I got it right.

The message is the message. If anything is complicated it is in the one coming to believe in the message.

I disagree. The writer of Proverbs said it well....

Pro 4:7 Wisdom is supreme – so acquire wisdom, and whatever you acquire, acquire understanding!

There is wisdom without understanding. The wisdom of this world is not of God.

That is not due to the message. That is due to any pre-assumed belief of the hearer of the message.

It is and it isn't. The message requires faith. It is meaningless without faith. Just a narrative that no one believes.

The typical problem in today's world, and probably the problem almost from the beginning, is that the message is being screwed up by the "preachers" of the message.

With this I agree completely. However, we obviously don't agree completely in this message.

I think you are misunderstanding repentance and what the phrase "God grants repentance" means. So far as I can find, the only verse saying that God granted repentance is Acts 11:18 and that essentially is speaking of God accepting the Gentiles into His kingdom through the New Covenant.

There are others but let me add a little to the message here....

Heb 12:16 And see to it that no one becomes an immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
Heb 12:17 For you know that later when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no opportunity for repentance, although he sought the blessing with tears.

Esau found no value in the meaning of his "birthright". He answer to Jacob betrayed the little value he found in what he was given.

Esau found no place to repent because Isaac refused to change His mind about Esau. Esau was sorry. Esau even changed his mind but it was all for the wrong reasons.

Isaac wouldn't change his mind because he knew why Esau was doing what he was doing. Such is the same with God. Repentance is not just one sided. It is agreement of two minds. The mind of God and the mind of the sinner.

I do certainly agree with that it is more than just saying, "I changed my mind". But I do not think there is a "process of salvation" except that salvation involves God's instantaneously justifying, regenerating and initially sanctifying the repentant believer. There is more often than not a process, sometimes a long process, in one coming to believing and repenting.

Faith grows. Every seed must grow before it breaks forth from the ground. Seed must be planted. We sow the Gospel first to our own and then to others.

As far as process,

1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sure I was. I experienced the new birth.

You may have thought you did. But Scripture says differently.

I don't teach "OSAS". Not my doctrine. Apostasy isn't about losing salvation. It is about the continuation of the message of God. The teaching of God. You're actually in apostasy yourself. I don't judge you as being absent the Spirit of God.

Apostasy - the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.

When you abandon or renounce the Gospel, you abandon your salvation; you are no longer saved.

So lets get into this a little deeper.....

So tell me when you become lost. Give me a distinct answer. Don't tell me that you are being chasten for sin and lost. Those two things don't go together. God chastens those that are sons.

You are lost again when you enter into unrepentant sin.

I would to God that some Ariminian would actually define such.

There is a sin unto to death, but even then, I don't believe such is actually an disqualifying event.

So lets keep going.

Sure there is sin unto spiritual death. It is any sin for which we are unrepentant. That is what James 5 19-20 is talking about. A person who was in Christ has entered into unrepentant sin (like David was when he murdered Uriah and took Bathsheba). But when a righteous person came to him to point out his sin, he immediately turned back to God (repented). His soul was saved from death because he turned back to God in repentance.

 

[Doug Brents]

yes you are

by replacing the baptism of the spirit. which God said he will do

with baptism in water. by the hands of men

Not at all. Scripture is clear that the baptism of the Spirit takes place during baptism in water, not before and certainly not without.

This is spirit baptism. not water baptism

it say you were literally baptized into christ. not water

Baptized INTO Christ, not baptized IN Christ. A person is baptized INTO Christ when they are baptized IN water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36-38, John 3:5).

except for your works you tried to replace with the work of God.. you may have had it

None of what I listed there is my addition to Scripture. God said all of those things lead to/result in our receiving salvation. We don't receive His gift if we have not done what He said leads to/results in receiving it. It is HIS GIFT! He can set any conditions He wants on who can receive it, and He did when He said that repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism all are conditions for receiving His gift of salvation/forgiveness/eternal life.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Not at all. Scripture is clear that the baptism of the Spirit takes place during baptism in water, not before and certainly not without.

Nope. Paul makes it clear. 1 baptism, not many

Baptized INTO Christ, not baptized IN Christ. A person is baptized INTO Christ when they are baptized IN water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36-38, John 3:5).

No

Again, read the sentence, we were baptized (placed into or immersed in) Christ.

No water is involved

None of what I listed there is my addition to Scripture. God said all of those things lead to/result in our receiving salvation. We don't receive His gift if we have not done what He said leads to/results in receiving it. It is HIS GIFT! He can set any conditions He wants on who can receive it, and He did when He said that repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism all are conditions for receiving His gift of salvation/forgiveness/eternal life.

Your trying to replace the work of God with your work.

God will not accept that in payment for your sin