Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

Wrong. The land was given to Israel before they took possession of it (Deut 1:8). But they did not get the use of it, the rest in it, or the benefit of it until they took it through invasion and growth (Exo 23:30).

It was theres.

And they did not take possession God gave it

God does not go back on his promises

Naaman was never a Jew, nor was he ever under the Law.

As Dizerner said, "Christ's death is enough". Don't know why you think it isn't. But to receive the benefit of His sacrifice, we must have faith in Him, and faith requires action.

His death is enough

Jesus himself said as moses lifted the serpent. so to must the son of man be lifted up that ALL WHO BELIEVE will never perish, but have eternal life.

Add anythign to this. or claim that we do not have eternal life is to Call God a liar.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I would agree with this. We do not want to view faith as passivity.

We do not receive grace like we receive a bullet to the head.

We must still utilize our will.

yes

we must repent and cry out like the tax collector.

But thats it.. add anythign else. is to add works. and will be rejected

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Passivity is not grace.

Grace is free. it was paid by the giver. it can not be earned

Requirements do not mean merit.

requirments cancel out grace.

it is like your dad handing you a gift. and saying it is yours because he loved you and you could never afford this on your own, then asks you to pay him back

its not much of a gift is it?

God still requires actions to receive the gift.

yes.

Believe in the name of the lord jesus and you wilol be saved, you and your household. the promise is to you and everyone e4lse.

Trust God recieve him in faith.

or reject him

Free Grace and Calvinism and OSAS are a false representation of grace.

grace is free to the reciever, paid in full by the giver.

if the reciever has to pay. then it is not of grace. it is of works.

They masquerade as grace, but they are not grace.

trying to earn grace by works is not grace.. Your trying to replace the cross with your self righteousness.

 

[Doug Brents]

It was theres.

And they did not take possession God gave it

God does not go back on his promises

Of course He does not go back on His promises. But God promised to give the land to them in Abraham's time, He gave them the land in Deuteronomy, but they still had to take possession of it starting in Joshua. It belonged to them, but they did not have any benefit from it until they took it.

His death is enough

Jesus himself said as moses lifted the serpent. so to must the son of man be lifted up that ALL WHO BELIEVE will never perish, but have eternal life.

What does it mean to "believe"?

 

[Dizerner]

What does it mean to "believe"?

It means to sit and do absolutely nothing at all.

Otherwise you earned heaven.

 

[Doug Brents]

It means to sit and do absolutely nothing at all.

Otherwise you earned heaven.

Good one.

 

[civic]

It means to sit and do absolutely nothing at all.

Otherwise you earned heaven.

I disagree faith is active just like love is active. Doing nothing is neither faith nor love.

You are arguing exactly like a Calvinist trying to make faith a work. It’s a fallacious argument

 

[Dizerner]

I disagree

Yeah, I was being sarcastic there.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Wrong. The land was given to Israel before they took possession of it (Deut 1:8). But they did not get the use of it, the rest in it, or the benefit of it until they took it through invasion and growth (Exo 23:30).

Did you receive the Spirit through faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

We have the "earnest" of the Spirit of God.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The "earnest" is a "down payment" until possession.

I do believe that men can fail in the faith but I believe it is rather "rare" to say the least.

Often times, people talk "around" this subject so as to "hold" to something they were taught in their theology of choice.

One of the clearest examples of God's longsuffering among Christians is the facts of chastisement. Every son receives chastisement. I still experience it myself. Now, it often times more a reminder of my frailty/inabilities than it is anything else. God has been nothing but good to me. His Spirit breaks me. I believe Heartbrokenness among Christians is a treasure of great value.

Not trying to justify sin so I don't "fit" such things as usually are sent my way in response.

How does God chasten you?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Of course He does not go back on His promises. But God promised to give the land to them in Abraham's time, He gave them the land in Deuteronomy, but they still had to take possession of it starting in Joshua. It belonged to them, but they did not have any benefit from it until they took it.

yes he did, and if you look. it was an unconditional covenant. God said I WILL

He did not say I will if you do this.

What does it mean to "believe"?

I can believe something and not trust in it. I can believe I am a sinner, and not believe I am condemned. in which case, i will not trust God

I can believe in jesus, but not believe I am a sinner, but just in case, say some sinners prayer, claim to have faith, yet only have belief.

I can believe in the gospel. but not believe jesus death was enough.. so i will add works. proving I do not have faith in jesus

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It means to sit and do absolutely nothing at all.

Otherwise you earned heaven.

You earn heaven when you are trusting in your works of righteousness to add to your salvation or complete it

Paul calls this completing or perfection it it in the flesh.. Gal 3

and calls those who teach it fools

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Good one.

what did the man dying in a fire do to save himself?

What did the person who was drowning in a raging sea do to save himself.

Non of them could do anythign to save themselves. they were literally bankrupt unable to do anything. so that say and let the resuer do their job.

when will you allow God to do his job and stop interfering?

 

[Dizerner]

when will you allow God to do his job and stop interfering?

If grace meant God does it all, then he literally could not stop God's grace.

Free Grace borrows the logic from irresistible grace, but then wants to bail on it for the first choice.

 

[Doug Brents]

Did you receive the Spirit through faith?

That is the only way to do so.

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

We have the "earnest" of the Spirit of God.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Only if we have received Christ. And as Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, and other passages say, we receive Christ in baptism (not before).

The "earnest" is a "down payment" until possession.

I do believe that men can fail in the faith but I believe it is rather "rare" to say the least.

Scripture says that there will be a large apostasy that MUST take place (and I believe it already has) before Jesus returns (2 Thes 2:1-3).

One of the clearest examples of God's longsuffering among Christians is the facts of chastisement. Every son receives chastisement. I still experience it myself. Now, it often times more a reminder of my frailty/inabilities than it is anything else. God has been nothing but good to me. His Spirit breaks me. I believe Heartbrokenness among Christians is a treasure of great value.

Absolutely. Those God loves He chastens. And when we are in sin, He sends faithful brothers and sisters into our life to turn us back to Him (James 5:19-20). But if we don't listen to them, we are again a sinner, lost and bound for Hell.

How does God chasten you?

I have been found in sin (addiction to porn) and turned back by my wife. God constantly prunes me, shapes me (sometimes painfully), and molds me to fit His image.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If grace meant God does it all, then he literally could not stop God's grace.

Grace is literally God does it all

will you receive his gift. or continue to reject it?

Free Grace borrows the logic from irresistible grace, but then wants to bail on it for the first choice.

no. Grace is not irresistabel. if it was. I could not continue in unbelief, everyone would be saved.

stop trying to attack calvinism. It has you blinded to the truth of the gospel.

Free will in in tact.

but it can not be earned by any deed whatsoever.

 

[Doug Brents]

what did the man dying in a fire do to save himself?

What did the person who was drowning in a raging sea do to save himself.

Non of them could do anythign to save themselves. they were literally bankrupt unable to do anything. so that say and let the resuer do their job.

when will you allow God to do his job and stop interfering?

I am not interfering with God in any way (as if I had the power to do so).

Quit coming up with nonsensical "logic" questions, and address Scripture.
Does God not say that confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS in receiving salvation? (Rom 10:9-10)
Does God not also say that we die to sin in baptism? (Rom 6:1-7)
Does God not also say that we must repent of sin in order to receive forgiveness of it? (Acts 3:19)
Is all of Scripture not always true, all at the same time?
This means that all of these are equally true, and equally required.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That is the only way to do so.

Only if we have received Christ. And as Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, and other passages say, we receive Christ in baptism (not before).

That isn't what happened to me. I wasn't baptized for months after I was saved. I know what I experienced.

However, you're not dealing with what I wrote. Do you see the "down payment"? We get good things NOW. We don't have to wait on them.

Scripture says that there will be a large apostasy that MUST take place (and I believe it already has) before Jesus returns (2 Thes 2:1-3).

This happened during the lives of the apostles.

2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Absolutely. Those God loves He chastens. And when we are in sin, He sends faithful brothers and sisters into our life to turn us back to Him (James 5:19-20). But if we don't listen to them, we are again a sinner, lost and bound for Hell.

I would disagree in how severely you're approaching this. Forgiveness is first necessary among those in Christ before confession. Longsuffering is essential.

I have been found in sin (addiction to porn) and turned back by my wife. God constantly prunes me, shapes me (sometimes painfully), and molds me to fit His image.

I bet your mind was scared and I'm not trying to make you remember. Just realize there are things in this life that leave a lasting "scare" of sin in our lives. The very thoughts of such are problematic if not sinful. I carry scares in my mind myself.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Grace is literally God does it all

will you receive his gift. or continue to reject it?

Your description doesn't equal = "it all".

 

[Doug Brents]

yes he did, and if you look. it was an unconditional covenant. God said I WILL

He did not say I will if you do this.

Yes, He did frequently, and He still does today. Read the passages I cited above.

I can believe something and not trust in it. I can believe I am a sinner, and not believe I am condemned. in which case, i will not trust God

I can believe in jesus, but not believe I am a sinner, but just in case, say some sinners prayer, claim to have faith, yet only have belief.

Yet you claim "belief" is all that is required. Why are you changing your tune all of a sudden?

I can believe in the gospel. but not believe jesus death was enough.. so i will add works. proving I do not have faith in jesus

Believing the Gospel means believing AND having faith/trust in Jesus. Trusting that His death is enough to provide salvation, and that He will do what He says. This means trusting that when He says that IF we repent He will forgive us (Acts 3:19), IF we confess Him as Lord He will give us salvation, and IF we are baptized we will be saved (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, etc.).

So it is not possible to "believe in the Gospel" and yet not believe that Jesus' death was enough.

 

[Doug Brents]

That isn't what happened to me. I wasn't baptized for months after I was saved. I know what I experienced.

Then you weren't saved when you thought you were. God keeps His promises. And if He gives an "IF/THEN" promise, it ALWAYS means IF/THEN. He doesn't give the "THEN" if the "IF" is missing.

However, you're not dealing with what I wrote. Do you see the "down payment"? We get good things NOW. We don't have to wait on them.

I am dealing with what you wrote. We don't get the down payment until we are saved/in Christ/forgiven/redeemed. And that happens while we are buried with Him in baptism, not before.

This happened during the lives of the apostles.

2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

So then, if there were many who were in Christ and fell away, then their salvation was lost, and it can continue to happen today. OSAS is a false doctrine.

I would disagree in how severely you're approaching this. Forgiveness is first necessary among those in Christ before confession. Longsuffering is essential.

Yes, there is the need for endurance, and forgiveness. That is not at issue. What James is addressing is that if a person is unrepentant, then they are lost. But if a faithful brother or sister turns them back to repentance, then they are saved from Hell and turned back to life.