Dizerner
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Nice red herring to pat yourself on the back. You can do that all you want.
But you still slandered my motivations, and you've done it many times before.
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- Thread starter civic
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Nice red herring to pat yourself on the back. You can do that all you want.
But you still slandered my motivations, and you've done it many times before.
civic
Active Member
Dizerner
Active Member
civic
Active Member
civic
Active Member
And He was man, came in the flesh , was human in every way like us read Hebrews. But He did not sin.
Dizerner
Active Member
You 100% slandered, and now you lied about it.
I would not have said anything, I would have tailored my comments to critique Dr. Flower's specific views.
You are acting so slimy man.
That's not an "ad hominem" by the way, you don't understand the definition of that properly
An "ad hominem" fallacy is saying a person is wrong because they are inferior in some way.
I am NOT addressing your ARGUMENT at all.
I am addressing YOUR ACTIONS morally as a person.
And it's called a "rebuke" not an "ad hominem."
You constantly make that logical mistake.
Dizerner
Active Member
If Jesus were GOD, then by definition you are not "just like him."
That's incredibly arrogant to even think.
Yeah, you can see underneath this denial of our sin nature and need for grace, is just straight up human pride.
civic
Active Member
Would Jesus died of “ natural “ causes like all men if He was not crucified in His old age ? Yes or no
Only by choice.
We do indeed start out as pure and holy. God forms the spirit in us. That spirit formed in us is not dead. It becomes dead when we sin. Only then do we become dead in trespasses and sin.
civic
Active Member
Crickets
@Jim
I never said he was not, it is something that even the animals of this world do for their young. It is call natural instinct.
Oh Jim, please...you know exactly what I mean. Nursing babies is far from being a spiritual act of obedience to the scriptures. I got better things to do with my time,.
Dizerner
Active Member
This is absolutely and fundamentally false, and the heart of the error.
It is a Gospel of inherent self-righteousness, a claim to prior self-goodness we do not actually deserve or merit.
Now instead of sinful people doing sinful things, you have pure and holy people who choose to be sinful.
And inexplicably—every single holy pure person without exception eventually sins, lol, the ludicrousness of it.
A holy and pure nature is not naturally disposed towards sin. Otherwise it is not even holy and pure.
And yet you have these self-righteous people being willing to admit they sinned, so it becomes somewhat confusing.
Because they admit they have done something bad—but they claim to have done something bad while being good.
And the logical outworking of it is, depending on the median age you give for the first sin, millions and millions of perfect people who do not need Jesus who do not need his atonement who all come to the Father by another way of their own righteousness.
That's the logical outworking of the Gospel of self-goodness.
And it's contradictory to the Bible through and through.
1. Scripture is clear there is no exception to having sinned.
2. Scripture is clear there is no other salvation than through the Cross.
3. Scripture is clear salvation is not even theoretically possible through moralism and good works.
We are by nature children of wrath born under a perfect Law that no one can keep and condemns us all.
You are directly setting yourself up against the clear words of Scripture and promoting self-goodness and self-righteousness in all humans naturally.
We are not born again again, as if we were born already born again.
That is not what Scripture teaches.
Everyone who has not believed abides in death and is dead in sins.
Have you read what God had to say about Israel? Did He not talk about rejecting their sacrifices, even though they were doing what He commanded? Why? He was displeased by their doing the right thing. Why? This is where you need to be. This is the level that you need to enter at. Because they fall under the person who is not saved. Their intent did not match up with what they were doing, and God knew it. It doesn't matter what you do, but the intent matters. When Jesus said that the righteous fed those who were hungry, visited the sick/infirm, visited in prison, etc., the point is that they did it of themselves. If you live every minute of your day saying, I'm going to visit these people in prison simply so I can go to heaven, do you believe that Jesus is pleased in the same was as these righteous people did these things because of who they are? Because they wanted to? Because they felt compelled to in their souls?
Does this help you understand why it is impossible for those who are rebellious to God to please Him? Just because a broken clock is right twice a day does not mean the clock is actually working.
What is absolutely and fundamentally false and the heart of the error is the idea that man is born with a spirit dead in sin as given by God or imputed from Adam, that heresy of original sin or the even worse heresy of total depravity.
The spirit of a man comes from God:
Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Isa 42:5 Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:
Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:
The very idea that God gives to the unborn or just born baby a spirit already dead in trespasses and sin should be so offensive and disgusting as to turn the stomach of anyone believing in God of the Bible. That is not a concept or an understanding of inherent self-righteousness; rather, it is the objective plan of a righteous God. Anyone holding to the pernicious teachings of original sin or total depravity is calling out God as the reason for his own sinfulness. Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 19:14). Who in their right mind could ever think that the kingdom of heaven belongs to sinful beings?
So then why did Adam sin?
You can call it ludicrous if you like, but in doing so, you are only blaming God for you own lawless behavior and your own decision to disobey God who created you.
Again, please tell us why Adam sinned.
And yet you, who would claim to have been born again, do continue, hopefully less and less as you mature in your faith, to sin against God. And by the way, the very reason it is called "born again" is because man was born the first time with a spirit free from the guilt of any sin. In being born again, man is once again, freed from the guilt and power of his own trespasses and sins.
No, that is the logical outworking of the Gospel of a righteous and holy God.
Rejection of the appalling and God-slamming doctrine of original sin denies none of those teachings.
What man is by nature is not what condemns man. What condemns of man is what he does by that nature.
Not if you understand the clear words of Scripture.
Rom 5:18 ....... so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 ....., so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Those are not teaching the regeneration of sinful beings, those are teaching the setting aside, the defeating, the elimination of any effects of the sin of Adam on the spirits of the just born child. Such does not promote self-goodness or self-righteousness; rather, such promotes the power of the shedding of the blood in the death of the Son of God by crucifixion on the cross.
It describes how a man starts out in the world. What each does is wholly, completely and only on him. And as Paul proclaims, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). You can blame someone else, but God said it is your fault and your fault alone.
You are correct. We are born first with a spirit direct from God that is alive and well; it is when we sin that we become spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins and when we believe we then are born again to become alive and well in the spirit.
One must reach a point in life when one can either believe or disbelieve. The newborn child is not capable of either.
Not true.
Gen 4:4 and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering,
Gen 4:5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell.
Gen 4:6 The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."
If there is any message to be gained from the Old Testament it is that God is pleased with obedience and displeased with disobedience and rewards it appropriately. And the words of Jesus:
Mat_23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
I know what you are trying to say, but that is a hypothetical question. Trying to answer hypothetical questions about or concerning deity are almost never very useful or helpful. Make the case without appealing to the hypothetical.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.......
There is nothing ever stated in the Bible that the flesh of Jesus was any different than all flesh. All flesh dies eventually if not interceded by some act of God.
Eternally-Grateful
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Eternally-Grateful
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