Excellent Discussion on OSAS

@Doug Brents

God's love is not synonymous with salvation.

Again false, since His Loving us ensures He washed us from our sins, which is Salvation Rev 1:5

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Jesus Christ is God, and His Love for His Church is exclusive and does this Eph 5:25-26


25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

These blessings accompany His Love for certain sinners, not all mankind.
 
Why would anyone give up the best thing that ever happened to them? If they were truly saved?
Christians who are insecure about where they stand with God have a difficult time sharing the love of God with others.
And love has every thing to do with salvation.

16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
John 3:16.
If our salvation is not secure, how could Jesus say about those He gives eternal life, “and they shall never perish” John 10:28

If even one man or woman receives eternal life and then forfeits it through sin or apostasy, will they not perish? And by doing so, do they not make Jesus’ words a lie?
 
Actually it is, in that it ensures Salvation to them He Loved, and Loves.
God loves everyone. He loved Cain (gave him divine protection) even after he murdered Able.
He loves all sinners (John 3:16, Rom 5:8, Luke 19:10), and He send Jesus to die for the lost, to redeem the ones who choose to worship Him.
His Love for them, Great Love at that, quickens them even while dead in sin and unbelief and rebellion Eph 2:2-5
His love does indeed give a way for those who worship Him to receive salvation. But He loves everyone, not only the saved, but all the world (1 John 2:2).
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Now understand, this is only for the Chosen in Christ from Eph 1:4, however His Great Love for them, ensures their Salvation by Grace even when they are in a most deplorable condition by nature and in disobedience/unbelief.
That is calvinistic rubbish. Christ didn't die just for the "chosen in Christ". He died for all the world (1 John 2:2, John 3:16), and it is only those who obey Him that receive the benefit of that love (Heb 5:9).
 
More denial of scripture and under strong delusion to believe a lie. To believe God loves all mankind is another strong delusion folk believe
You are accepting as a proof text a statement from a song full of hyperbole over the direct statements of John that are without hyperbole? Hmmm.
God so loved the World, not the chosen, not the righteous; the whole world (John 3:16).
Jesus died for the sins of not just the chosen, the righteous, but those of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
 
You are accepting as a proof text a statement from a song full of hyperbole over the direct statements of John that are without hyperbole? Hmmm.
God so loved the World, not the chosen, not the righteous; the whole world (John 3:16).
Jesus died for the sins of not just the chosen, the righteous, but those of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
You showing that you believe a lie, for its crystal clear God doesnt love all mankind Ps 5:5; Rom 9:13
 
I know what Total Depravity actually says. I didn't blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I didn't claim that God , through the Holy Spirit was incapable of communicating with the unregenerate, but that is what Total Depravity says.
Except Total Depravity doesn't say that, so false testimony. Total Depravity speaks of man, not of God or the Holy Spirit.

In Calvinist theology, total depravity refers to the comprehensive impact of sin on human nature, meaning that every aspect of a person, including their mind, will, and affections, is corrupted by sin. This doesn't mean humans are as evil as they could possibly be, but rather, that sin has affected every part of their being, making them completely dependent on God's grace for salvation and for anything that pleases God.

That is Total Depravity in a nutshell. It doesn't say anything about God other then we are reliant upon God for salvation because we are so corrupted by sin. It doesn't say anything about the Holy Spirit being able or unable to speak to us. In fact, if you knew anything about Calvinism you would know that without the Holy Spirit communicating with the unregenerate, they could not become regenerate. Just because universalism is a heresy and the Holy Spirit doesn't thusly speak to everyone is outside of the scope of Total Depravity.
It says that unless one has been elected and born again, i.e., saved, he cannot understand. That places the onus on God, not man
That is not what Total Depravity says. That is what unconditional election says. And it puts no onus on God. If you aren't sure why not, look up the book "The Sovereignty of God" by A.W. Pink. (It is available for free in multiple places.) I found it at grace e-books. He does a very good job of explaining it.
I have probably studied about total depravity as much as you, but no matter.
Apparently not. Even an AI got it better, and this AI hasn't even been around for a year yet. (Worded better then I could do it.)
No one who actually knows that would every believe the injustice implied by the doctrine of total depravity.
No injustice, other than what we did/do to God. Adam breaking God's only Law at the beginning of time isn't implied, it happened. Paul said that by one man sin entered the world, and by sin death. Which is why "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." There is no choice involved if everyone did it. Why wasn't there choice? It was by nature. It is what being human became. Being sinners. However, Adam had dominion over creation, so it is what being part of the creation became. Corrupted by sin. As Paul (or Peter, I get them mixed up on this at times) said, the whole world groans for redemption. Why? Because of what Adam did.
It is the doctrine of total depravity that is blasphemous because it casts dispersion upon God.
It does not cast any aspersion on God. It makes us completely reliant upon God for salvation. Not sure how that casts aspersion on God. Who are you to judge God in any way?
It is not about what God knew would happen. It is about what Total Depravity says God would do, namely, send human beings to hell for reasons that they have absolutely no control over.
Again, that would be unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistable grace. And so what if we don't have control? Just who do you think GOD is??? What gives you the right to judge God and His actions/inactions? What place do you have before God that we do not? (That place is under the heel of His foot...) You really do need to go back and learn about who God is... properly. See the above "Sovereignty of God", or remember it for when you realize that it might be time to learn. It's an eyeopener.
Say that again, but this time speak to the one in the mirror when you say that.
I have been learning it again, however, I am surprised how much I already agree with it all. In fact, a lot of the arguments made in the book on the Sovereignty of God are the same arguments I have made with myself over the years/decades. And scripture is liberally used throughout the whole book. You should read it. Once you have a proper view of the sovereignty of God, then look at everything again. Not with TULIP or anything. I'm saying, survey the landscape on your own. When you are done, you may find yourself with your own version of Calvinism.
 
You really need to spend some time studying that passage. It describes that it is they not God who is to blame for their lack of seeing and hearing. But Calvinism places that squarely on God, not man.
Well, if you don't understand what the sovereignty of God is, then you don't understand. It is on us, however, you won't truly understand what that means if you don't understand who God is. Also, what you said doesn't explain why Jesus decided to speak in parables, instead of speaking in a way that the people would understand what He is saying. Why would He purposefully hide what He was saying so that they would not turn to Him, and then He heal them?
 
Except Total Depravity doesn't say that, so false testimony. Total Depravity speaks of man, not of God or the Holy Spirit.

In Calvinist theology, total depravity refers to the comprehensive impact of sin on human nature, meaning that every aspect of a person, including their mind, will, and affections, is corrupted by sin. This doesn't mean humans are as evil as they could possibly be, but rather, that sin has affected every part of their being, making them completely dependent on God's grace for salvation and for anything that pleases God.
You are saying there that the when the unregenerate mother loves and cares for her child, that God is not pleased with what she does. And you say that is the result of total depravity.
That is Total Depravity in a nutshell. It doesn't say anything about God other then we are reliant upon God for salvation because we are so corrupted by sin. It doesn't say anything about the Holy Spirit being able or unable to speak to us. In fact, if you knew anything about Calvinism you would know that without the Holy Spirit communicating with the unregenerate, they could not become regenerate. Just because universalism is a heresy and the Holy Spirit doesn't thusly speak to everyone is outside of the scope of Total Depravity.
That is not true. According to total depravity, the unregenerate hasn't a clue about anything that the Holy Spirit has said. Total depravity says that it is only after having been born again can anyone understand any spiritual thing. If the unregenerate does not understand anything that the Holy Spirit says, then the Holy Spirit is not communicating anything to the unregenerate.
That is not what Total Depravity says. That is what unconditional election says. And it puts no onus on God. If you aren't sure why not, look up the book "The Sovereignty of God" by A.W. Pink. (It is available for free in multiple places.) I found it at grace e-books. He does a very good job of explaining it.
I have "The Sovereignty of God" by A.W. Pink in my library. I have read and studied Pink's concept of the sovereignty of God. Pink's concept of the sovereignty is false; it is a joke. It makes God the author and perfector of sin.
No injustice, other than what we did/do to God. Adam breaking God's only Law at the beginning of time isn't implied, it happened. Paul said that by one man sin entered the world, and by sin death. Which is why "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
If the reason that all sin is because Adam sinned, then why did Adam sin?
There is no choice involved if everyone did it. Why wasn't there choice? It was by nature. It is what being human became. Being sinners. However, Adam had dominion over creation, so it is what being part of the creation became. Corrupted by sin. As Paul (or Peter, I get them mixed up on this at times) said, the whole world groans for redemption. Why? Because of what Adam did.
A sinner is what each and every human being, including Adam, becomes by sinning, that is, by disobeying God. You became a sinner because you disobeyed God, not because of Adam's disobeying God.
It does not cast any aspersion on God. It makes us completely reliant upon God for salvation.
Of course it does. It says that God has condemned the whole of mankind for what one man did. God does not, would not, do that.
Again, that would be unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistable grace. And so what if we don't have control?
If you don't have control, then there is no sin. Sin is lawlessness, sin is disobeying God. Disobedience is a choice. Do you have a choice in whether to steal, murder or rape? What sin have you committed that was not your choice?
Just who do you think GOD is??? What gives you the right to judge God and His actions/inactions? What place do you have before God that we do not? (That place is under the heel of His foot...) You really do need to go back and learn about who God is... properly. See the above "Sovereignty of God", or remember it for when you realize that it might be time to learn. It's an eyeopener.
The eyes that need to be opened are the eyes of those who think that God condemned the world because Adam ate the wrong fruit. And that is you. Who do you think God is?
I have been learning it again, however, I am surprised how much I already agree with it all. In fact, a lot of the arguments made in the book on the Sovereignty of God are the same arguments I have made with myself over the years/decades. And scripture is liberally used throughout the whole book. You should read it. Once you have a proper view of the sovereignty of God, then look at everything again. Not with TULIP or anything. I'm saying, survey the landscape on your own. When you are done, you may find yourself with your own version of Calvinism.
It is not my version of Calvinism. It is what Calvinism teaches. It is the OGRE that Calvinism says is God.
 
You are saying there that the when the unregenerate mother loves and cares for her child, that God is not pleased with what she does. And you say that is the result of total depravity.
So now you add onto yourself bearing false witness. I never said that once. What I said, in a nutshell, is that we are incapable of saving ourselves, or providing any amount of work to save ourselves, because every part of our being has been corrupted by sin. It isn't that difficult to understand. That is a full stop, not add whatever false witness you want to add. It could also be considered Total Reprobation. We are all going to hell, unless God saves us. And if you cannot understand why, you need to go back and learn about who God is, and who we are, for you put yourself on par with God.
That is not true. According to total depravity, the unregenerate hasn't a clue about anything that the Holy Spirit has said. Total depravity says that it is only after having been born again can anyone understand any spiritual thing. If the unregenerate does not understand anything that the Holy Spirit says, then the Holy Spirit is not communicating anything to the unregenerate.
That is not true. We do not understand the spiritual message of the gospel unless the Holy Spirit regenerates us. That is not the same as being born again, as that comes after. Regeneration comes first. It is God, by the Holy Spirit, bringing our dead spirit back to life. And with that comes understanding of the gospel message, and response to the message. Without God's acting on us, we would never reach that point, because, as God said in prophecy (Thus saith the Lord), they have each gone their own way. The result? There are none righteous, no not one, none do good, and none seek after God. Again, because they have each gone their own way. If left to ourselves, we would each go our own way and no one would be saved.
I have "The Sovereignty of God" by A.W. Pink in my library. I have read and studied Pink's concept of the sovereignty of God. Pink's concept of the sovereignty is false; it is a joke. It makes God the author and perfector of sin.
Now since Pink used scripture (quite liberally) in his explanations, consider the possibility that he is right. That would mean that you just blasphemed God by saying He is a joke. Why? The sovereingty being written about by Pink is God's nature, so to say it is a joke is to say that of God's nature, which is God.

The final comment just shows that you do not understand what sin is. There is a reason why scripture says that if you break one law, you break them all. Sin is an archery term that means to miss the mark. You miss at all, you are a sinner. So God gave us a standard. Let's use the 10 commandments. The standard (One single standard) is all of the 10 commandments. So, if you bear false witness, you have broken one of the 10 commandments. However, all ten are the standard, therefore you missed them all. It's like those tests where, if you get one question wrong, you are done at that moment, you have failed. You don't get to answer any more questions because you have already failed. All those questions are marked wrong. It doesn't matter that you didn't get the opportunity to answer.
If the reason that all sin is because Adam sinned, then why did Adam sin?
That's an easy one. Love. (I'm going to let that one fry your brain.)
A sinner is what each and every human being, including Adam, becomes by sinning, that is, by disobeying God. You became a sinner because you disobeyed God, not because of Adam's disobeying God.
Ah, a pelagian. Fun. So how many people went to heaven perfect as God is perfect, without sin? Without being sinners? Did God lie through Paul when He said "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?" Did His prophecy fail when He said that there are none righteous, no not one?
Of course it does. It says that God has condemned the whole of mankind for what one man did. God does not, would not, do that.
Wow, you are quick to cast aspersion on God. Wow. There is absolutely no fear of God behind your eyes. Not one bit. God was clear through Paul when He said [again through Paul] that sin entered the world by one man, and by sin death. Why would God through Paul say that? Adam was the federal head of not just humanity, but of creation itself. God gave Adam dominion. So when Adam sinned, the whole creation fell into sin. That included all of humanity, and the rest of creation fell under the effect of sin. The corruption that came is what Paul speaks of when (again God through Paul) said that creation groans for redemption. The weight of the corruption of sin on creation itself.

I mean, I'm surprise you don't get it after this:
"14 Then the Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all the livestock,
And more than any animal of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And dust you shall eat
All the days of your life;
15 And I will [c]make enemies
Of you and the woman,
And of your [d]offspring and her [e]Descendant;
He shall [f]bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise Him on the heel.”

16 To the woman He said,

“I will greatly multiply
Your pain [g]in childbirth,
In pain you shall deliver children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;

Cursed is the ground because of you;
With [h]hard labor you shall eat from it
All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
Yet you shall eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face
You shall eat bread,
Until you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”


20 Now the man named his wife [j]Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. 21 And the Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

All of the above for the woman and the man relates to all humanity. It also shows that Adam and Eve are the focal point for everything. And we are all affected because... of Adam and Eve.
If you don't have control, then there is no sin. Sin is lawlessness, sin is disobeying God. Disobedience is a choice. Do you have a choice in whether to steal, murder or rape? What sin have you committed that was not your choice?
Sin is an archery term for missing the standard/mark. It doesn't matter if you have control or not. (Perhaps that is just one thing you don't understand about the world God made. It is orderly and systematic because God is orderly and systematic. It is also unfair because logic is cold, uncaring, unempathic, and unsympathetic. Perhaps that why you don't agree with AW Pink's explanation of the sovereignty of God. It puts you under God's heel as a created being, not not on par with God. Not in control of your own destiny. It puts you under God's control as the supreme King and Sovereign of all creation.
The eyes that need to be opened are the eyes of those who think that God condemned the world because Adam ate the wrong fruit. And that is you. Who do you think God is?
The one who condemned all of creation because Adam failed to follow the one standard that God set for Adam. The only Law. The only rule. Adam missed the mark, and since Adam was the federal head of all creation, and of humanity, all of creation fell under Satan, and under the corruption of sin. (Which again, is the antithesis of God, since God is the standard.) While Satan has dominion over creation, that is, whatever God gave to Adam, God is still the Sovereign. Hence Satan has to ask God permission to do ANYTHING to Job. And when God sets limits, Satan can not step outside of them.
It is not my version of Calvinism. It is what Calvinism teaches. It is the OGRE that Calvinism says is God.
It is your understanding of Calvinism, and it is not what Calvinism teaches. I can say that even though I am not a Calvinist myself. I am calvinistic, in that the beliefs I have are in line with what Calvin taught, though not completely. It is the problem with name tag, systematized Christianity/beliefs. If you don't accept everything, including the negotiables, then you are not a believer. The only thing that matters are the non-negotiables.

You really need to consider what you say about God, because, if you happen to be wrong, then all you have left are all the evil things you said about God.
 
That is not true. We do not understand the spiritual message of the gospel unless the Holy Spirit regenerates us. That is not the same as being born again, as that comes after.
Where in the world do you get that? Regeneration is one aspect of God's act of salvation. Justification is another. All such are acts of God in the salvation of the individual and they all happen at the very same instant in time in the life of the one who God saves. When one is regenerated, he is also justified and born again. When the repentant believer's sins are forgiven and he is given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit, he has been justified, regenerated, and initially sanctified; he has been saved.

To be born again is regeneration; it is being made alive again in the spirit.
 
So now you add onto yourself bearing false witness. I never said that once.
Could you tell us what you think it means in Romans 8:8 where Paul says, "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God". What does Paul mean there when he says, "cannot please God"? What does "please God" mean in that verse?
 
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Both Calvinism and so-called "Pelagianism" (the denial of a sinful nature) are wrong.

They are errors that are ditches on either side of the right road in the middle.

Why Calvinism is false

Scripture teaches a sin nature

Total depravity does not mean man cannot respond, that is a misunderstanding.

Total depravity means man cannot respond WITHOUT THE GRACE OF GOD.

Free will is still Biblical and grace comes before regeneration:

Free will is Biblical

Grace before regeneration is Biblical
That seems to me to be a poor definition of the grace of God. The grace of God produced His written revelation. So yes, that grace of God is before regeneration. I don't disagree with that. But regeneration before belief? No way!

Also, I don't think Pelagianism denies a sinful nature. I think it does deny a dead spirit at birth. But that is different.
 
But regeneration before belief? No way!

We agree on that. But we must not conflate regeneration with a need for grace in general. to understand and desire holiness.

Also, I don't think Pelagianism denies a sinful nature. I think it does deny a dead spirit at birth. But that is different.

Well, I used "so-called" for a reason. It's debatable what Pelagius taught, and he seemed to change his tune. So Calvinists use this label for a set of beliefs that perhaps Pelagius himself did not hold.

Remember, Paul tells us "we were all one once." That is, a child of wrath by nature. Jesus is not an optional Savior of humanity for when we mess our own perfect holy nature up. All humans sin.
 
Where in the world do you get that? Regeneration is one aspect of God's act of salvation. Justification is another. All such are acts of God in the salvation of the individual and they all happen at the very same instant in time in the life of the one who God saves. When one is regenerated, he is also justified and born again. When the repentant believer's sins are forgiven and he is given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit, he has been justified, regenerated, and initially sanctified; he has been saved.

To be born again is regeneration; it is being made alive again in the spirit.
That is difficult to say. Regeneration precedes salvation, and salvation is by faith. Justification is salvation. Now, as to the very same instant... hard to say. It all depends on how God sees it.
 
Could you tell us what you think it means in Romans 8:8 where Paul says, "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God". What does Paul mean there when he says, "cannot please God"? What does "please God" mean in that verse?
Context is key.
"6 For the mind [f]set on the flesh is death, but the mind [g]set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind [h]set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

If you are hostile to God, you cannot please Him. You are hostile. It is impossible to please God.

"Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk [d]according to the flesh but [e]according to the Spirit."

The law of death... hmmm... I remember someone saying the Bible never said that. The requirement of the Law is to live a perfect righteous life. If not, you die. It is impossible to live a perfect righteous life, therefore the law is our death. However Jesus did live a perfect righteous life, and as such fulfilled the law where we cannot. However, He died like a common criminal (and was raised again). As such, along with being God, His death became our fulfillment. The death we were to face, He faced. Our sin imputed to Him, as the high priests of old did for the sacrifice of atonement, and His righteousness became our righteousness before God. However, it is only for those who believe. Do note, the Bible doesn't exactly tell us how everyone came or comes to believe. Israel has a day of reckoning coming, after which Jesus Himself will personally save the remnant. (Zechariah) The will look upon Him whom they have pierced, and they recognize Him, and they are broken. All that remain mourn for Him as for an only child, and all that. Then with the fountains of regeneration and forgiveness. FOR ISRAEL, not the Gentiles. This is God's final act in dealing with Israel before the Millennial kingdom begins.
 
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