Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[JLB]

@JLB

I'll be back later to discuss your few words. I do not teach OSAS; but do believe the scriptures and teach..."Once Loved Always Loved."

Amen. God certainly loves us.

God also loves all the people of the world.

He sent His Son to die for the sins of the world; not just our sins but for the unsaved people of the world.


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:2


God loves His people.

God loves all the unsaved people of the world.


God loving us and desiring all people to be saved, doesn’t mean every person will believe and be saved.


Love does not = salvation

Believe = salvation

 

[civic]

Amen. God certainly loves us.

God also loves all the people of the world.

He sent His Son to die for the sins of the world; not just our sins but for the unsaved people of the world.


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:2


God loves His people.

God loves all the unsaved people of the world.


God loving us and desiring all people to be saved, doesn’t mean every person will believe and be saved.


Love does not = salvation

Believe = salvation

Amen !!!

 

[Studyman]

Thank you @Studyman

One of the answers is already in the Scripture I posted.

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

I was simply pointing out what Paul, an Elder in the true Body of Christ, is teaching the Body of Christ. I believe that to understand his teaching, a person should consider all of his words in a given topic, and not just a sentence here or a sentence there that can be twisted to support one or more of this world's many man-made religious philosophies.

Secondly when we are really born again

I believe Paul was "Really Born Again" in the context it is used by the Jesus "of the Bible". That he was chosen by the Christ "of the Bible" to teach the real Body of Christ how to become really "born again". How to put on "The New Man", which after God is created in righteousness and true Holiness. That is why I posted his teaching, and asked questions about them so we could examine them and discuss them ourselves, in belief/faith that Paul really had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Omitting Paul's words that don't align with a certain religious philosophy, is a popular religious tactic we learn from this world's religions. But clearly the Real Holy Spirit would never encourage such behavior.

we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit (the promise since Pentecost)

Peter, another Elder of the real Body of Christ, teaches us.

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are "his" witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given "to them" that obey him.

Are you teaching that there is "another gospel", instituted "AFTER" the first Body of Christ, under the New High Priest of God, obeyed God and received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2?

If so, I would be interested in you showing me in Scriptures where this "new covenant" of which you promote, was instituted.

and He will change us, we no longer have the desire to sin, now our focus becomes to please God by obedience as we grow and produce fruits.

Didn't Paul have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? This is why I posted more than a couple of Paul's sentences, I wanted to see what Paul actually teaches the real Body of Christ.

Paul didn't say any of these things you are teaching, in the Chapter you chose to quote from, or in any of his letters.

If the religious philosophy of this world you are promoting it true, and men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, no longer have the desire to sin, why are we instructed to "put on the Armor of God, to withstand the wiles of the devil", or "Yield ourselves" and our body to God?

Matt 13:23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

But Jesus said to "Live BY" the Word of God. Paul, an Elder of God's Church, tells you to "Yield yourself to God, and your members as instruments of Righteousness unto God". Peter, another Elder of the Real Body of Christ, tells us "to obey God" rather than man.

If I don't believe these words when I hear them, and avoid even studying them, how can I understand them?

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Why would you leave out part of Paul's Teaching here, AGAIN? What spirit would provoke a man to omit from their teaching, 1/2 of Paul's message? You did the same thing to Paul in Romans 6, which is why I replied to your post in the first place. Perhaps this popular tradition is so ingrained in your heart that you don't even know you are doing it. Maybe God is using an a$$ to show you, as HE is known to do.

Here, let's AGAIN, post all of Paul's Words and Seek to, not justify adopted religious philosophies, but lets Seek to understand what Paul is actually saying. That's all I'm advocating for.

Rom. 8:1 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, "who walk" "not after the flesh", but (WALK) "after the Spirit". 2 For the law of the Spirit of life "in Christ Jesus" hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Jesus "of the bible" says;

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

According to Jesus and Paul, who I believe represent to teaching of the Holy Spirit, if I "WALK" in the Word's of the Lord's Christ, I am "Walking in the Spirit" and therefore am "In Christ". If I only "hear" the Word's of the Jesus "of the Bible", but am not a "DOER" of His Sayings, then I am not "Walking in the Spirit" and I am not "In Christ Jesus". Now I can call Jesus Lord, Lord, I can "Come in His Name", honor Him with my lips, but if I'm not "Walking in His Sayings, as HE did with His Father, and therefore was "In Him", then in like manner, if I don't "WALK" in the Saying of the Jesus "of the Bible, then I am not in Him.

This world's religious system doesn't teach this. But Paul did, and anyone REALLY seeking God will find this same truth, even as I did.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

It is but 9:00 am our time, can I ask you a question? What are you drinking, or smoking this early in the morning? So, you are taking what I said from Acts 13:39 and running to Moses.

Have you ever sung this spiritual great hymn? https://hymnary.org/text/hail_sovereign_love_that_first_began#google_vignette

1 Hail, sovereign love, that first began
The scheme to rescue fallen man!
Hail, matchless, free, eternal grace,
That gave my soul a hiding-place!

2 [Against the God who rules the sky
I fought with hand uplifted high;
Despised the mention of his grace,
Too proud to seek a hiding-place.

3 But thus the eternal counsel ran:
“Almighty love, arrest that man!”
I felt the arrows of distress,
And found I had no hiding-place.

4 Indignant Justice stood in view;
To Sinai’s fiery mount I flew;
But Justice cried, with frowning face,
“This mountain is no hiding-place!”

5 Ere long a heavenly voice I heard,
And Mercy’s angel-form appeared;
She led me on, with placid pace,
To Jesus, as my Hiding-place.]

6 Should storms of seven-fold thunder roll,
And shake the globe from pole to pole,
No flaming bolt could daunt my face,
For Jesus is my Hiding-place.

7 On him almighty vengeance fell,
That must have sunk a world to hell;
He bore it for a chosen race,
And thus became their Hiding-place.

8 A few more rolling suns, at most,
Will land me on fair Canaan’s coast,
Where I shall sing the song of grace,
And see my glorious Hiding-place.
All of God's children a shouted Amen and Amen! Praise be the the Lamb of God forever and ever...my secured hiding place.

Studyman, when we under the NT when we sin, we have an advocate.... Jesus Christ!

1 John 1:9​

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

I have a meeting in a few minutes, must run.

I was simply pointing out the undeniable Biblical Facts about who Paul was teaching in the Jews Synagogue. In a Time when the Pharisees and Sadducees and Scribes were still promoting Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins. How that Paul taught from Moses and the Prophets about the Prophesied coming of God's New Priesthood, and how those in the Jews Synagogue came to realize that sins were not forgiven by the works of the temporary Levitical Priesthood given by the Spirit of Christ to Moses, until the promised SEED should come.

Instead of promoting to foolishness of me doing drugs, why didn't you just answer the simple and prudent question I asked?

Is this not speaking to the " Law of Moses" from which the flesh could not be justified?

And if not, what other Law are they speaking to, wherein forgiveness was provided for, "Till the Seed should Come??

 

[Tranquil]

It’s there out

If we believe in grace alone. We do not believe we have to obey jesus

You maybe, not me. Because of God's grace we are able to obey.

Grace is an unearned favor from God, enabling believers to follow His commands without the need for works or merit. As stated in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God". His grace allows us to respond to God's love and purpose, leading to a life of obedience and good works. Ultimately, obedience is a response to God's grace, not a means to earn it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You maybe, not me. Because of God's grace we are able to obey.

yes. once we are saved.

otherwise its just self righteousness, or as God calls it, bloody rags

Grace is an unearned favor from God, enabling believers to follow His commands without the need for works or merit. As stated in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God". His grace allows us to respond to God's love and purpose, leading to a life of obedience and good works. Ultimately, obedience is a response to God's grace, not a means to earn it.

yes. Key word believers.

because they are saved. Not to get, keep or make them more saved

 

[Dizerner]

You don't need Free Grace to have security, in fact, it does not even offer any real security, because in the end you are trusting in a doctrine and your one moment of faith instead of in Christ himself. Grace is not the removal of free will, and never should or has been defined this way, and the very warnings given to us in Scripture are in fact for our security. Legalism, self-righteousness, self-effort and striving, are not solved by the elimination of all responsibility and free will, but rather understanding what is our part to contribute and what is not, the reception and dependence on God's grace being our willful choice each moment.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You don't need Free Grace to have security,

your right

you need the grace purchased in full by the blood of christ on the cross.

in fact, it does not even offer any real security, because in the end you are trusting in a doctrine and your one moment of faith instead of in Christ himself.

or we are trusting in the promises of God himself.. and not our own works and deeds and abilities

Grace is not the removal of free will, and never should or has been defined this way,

no one said it was.

Trust God. Not calvinism or other doctrines of men

and the very warnings given to us in Scripture are in fact for our security. Legalism, self-righteousness, self-effort and striving, are not solved by the elimination of all responsibility and free will, but rather understanding what is our part to contribute and what is not, the reception and dependence on God's grace being our willful choice each moment.

no. But Gods promises are in tact.

If you do this (trust in me) I will do that.

do you trust God or do you trust self.

 

[Dizerner]

the promise... Gods promises

Have conditions.

do you trust God or do you trust self.

I depend upon God but I am called not to be passive.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Have conditions.

Yep..

Recieve him
Believe in him
Look to him in faith

I depend upon God but I am called not to be passive.

if your trying to do good deeds thinking they will help you get saved. then your not depending on God then are you?

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Instead of promoting to foolishness of me doing drugs, why didn't you just answer the simple and prudent question I asked?

Go back and read again what you said base on what I said.

It's easy to blindly accuse Red. But exactly what is it that the Apostles taught in Acts 13 that I don't believe?

You asked this question, and THEN I said:

Since you asked, I could easily point out many truths in any part of the word of God that you do not teach properly, that would be an easy task for me. Since you asked, here's one:

Acts 13:39​

“And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

You are asking a solider of Christ, that did not just put the armour on yesterday, but truly about to take it off, because of my age, for the time is near to do so.

Now let look at Acts 13:39 ~ In this wonderful scripture is a gold mine of hidden treasure that most just glean right over.

1) First, do we hear what Paul is declaring concerning free justification from all things? I think very few do, in comparison to the thousands of millions that have read this scripture, since it was first penned. "

"And by him all that believe are justified" ~Justification is by Jesus Christ's obedience and faith, not ours! This probably breaks your heart, but it is the testimony of the word of God.

Romans 3:22​

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

2) "And by him all that believe are justified" ~ "are" is a form of the verb "to be." So, our faith is an evidence of our free justification, not the means thereof! We do not believe in order to be justified, we believe because we HAVE BEEN justified by Christ's work of redemption, a huge difference.....the different is the TRUE gospel of Christ and the gospel peddled by men like you @Studyman.

3) "from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." The law of Moses in all of its forms in which it was given, offered NO justification through obeying its laws unless there was perfect obedience in ALL POINTS of the law. That's why we have another covenant, one that is not on man keeping the law, since God found fault with man being unable to do so, we have another covenant supported by two infallible acts of God: his oath and his promises of grace, to the seed of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 8:7​

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"

The fault was not with God's law, but man's ability, strength to keep the law in order to enter into life eternal. So, why put a yoke of bondage on men's neck by telling them they must do this, that, and the other, BEFORE they can enter eternal life. Eternal life was secured for us by Jesus Christ, and one's faith and desire to live according to the word of God is the evidence that they have already been justified form ALL THINGS.

Enough said on Acts 13. Be careful what you ask for!

Btw, way, you never even said ONE WORD about Jude 1:1 you danced all around it, as usual. Now, if you like I can come back and address ALL of Jude, pretty sure there's much in there that goes against your way of thinking, well, actually I know there are.

Then you came back with this:

I believe this 100%. When a man sinned in Moses time and became unrighteous, how was he cleansed of his unrighteousness? Shall I not Believe in the Christ's Words spoken to Moses?

Lev. 4: 1 And "the LORD" spake unto Moses, saying, (This is the Christ, the Holy One of Israel, Yes?)

27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, "for his sin" which he hath sinned. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Is this not speaking to the " Law of Moses" from which the flesh could not be justified?

And if not, what other Law are they speaking to, wherein forgiveness was provided for, "Till the Seed should Come??

You took off running to Moses, and never even addressed what I said either with Acts 13:39, nor Jude 1:1; that's why I asked you.... what in the world are drinking or smoking, for you did not even come close of addressing points put before you at YOUR REQUEST. You truly need help in learning how to debate doctrine, but first, you need to learn the scriptures, which is the true source of all of your problems, it is not your natural intelligent that is your problem, but your spiritual understanding.

 

[GodsGrace]

You maybe, not me. Because of God's grace we are able to obey.

Grace is an unearned favor from God, enabling believers to follow His commands without the need for works or merit. As stated in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God". His grace allows us to respond to God's love and purpose, leading to a life of obedience and good works. Ultimately, obedience is a response to God's grace, not a means to earn it.

What a great conversation between you and @Eternally-Grateful .....
!!

A great mish-mash of God's word....

Which is the result of not believing that God DEMANDS that we OBEY and that obedience includes good works.

Seen so many posts like this....
Thanks for proving my point....

One that, at times, EG tells me does not exist.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't need Free Grace to have security, in fact, it does not even offer any real security, because in the end you are trusting in a doctrine and your one moment of faith instead of in Christ himself. Grace is not the removal of free will, and never should or has been defined this way, and the very warnings given to us in Scripture are in fact for our security. Legalism, self-righteousness, self-effort and striving, are not solved by the elimination of all responsibility and free will, but rather understanding what is our part to contribute and what is not, the reception and dependence on God's grace being our willful choice each moment.

Very simple and great post D !
Well said.

 

[GodsGrace]

yes. once we are saved.

otherwise its just self righteousness, or as God calls it, bloody rags

There ya go.
Our good deeds are as filthy bloody rags to God.

It must really please Him to hear this all the time from persons that are supposed to be
respecting Him enough to obey His wishes.

yes. Key word believers.

because they are saved. Not to get, keep or make them more saved

How about to MAINTAIN our salvation because without obeying God
we will not make it to heaven.

Only one verse in all the bible about FAITH ALONE....
and it states that FAITH ALONE is dead and useless.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What a great conversation between you and @Eternally-Grateful .....
!!

A great mish-mash of God's word....

Which is the result of not believing that God DEMANDS that we OBEY and that obedience includes good works.

Seen so many posts like this....
Thanks for proving my point....

One that, at times, EG tells me does not exist.

You can obey all you want

Your obedience will bnot Cause God to forgive you of one sin.

Why do you wish to be like a pharisee and not a tax collector who went home justified?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There ya go.
Our good deeds are as filthy bloody rags to God.

Yes, If we are using them to pay for our sins.

Notice how once again you totally twist my words and make it appear I said somethign I never said

You should be ashamed

It must really please Him to hear this all the time from persons that are supposed to be
respecting Him enough to obey His wishes.


How about to MAINTAIN our salvation because without obeying God
we will not make it to heaven.

lol.. you can obey God all you want. It will not get you into heaven

Thats what the cross was for.

Only one verse in all the bible about FAITH ALONE....
and it states that FAITH ALONE is dead and useless.

I gave you tons of verses that said faith and nothing else

So this strawman will not help you

Pump your chest like a pharisee. It will not affect my salvation..

 

[GodsGrace]

You can obey all you want

Your obedience will bnot Cause God to forgive you of one sin.

Why do you wish to be like a pharisee and not a tax collector who went home justified?

§EG
Proof positive of what your theology brings one to believe.

And you've told me many times there are no Christians that believe what the other member just stated.
(but there are - due to incorrect theology).

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, If we are using them to pay for our sins.

Notice how once again you totally twist my words and make it appear I said somethign I never said

Good deeds do not pay for sins.

We are told not to sin.
We are told to do good works.

We're supposed to be doing both.
One does not dismiss the other.


The point is that we're supposed to OBEY.

You should be ashamed

lol.. you can obey God all you want. It will not get you into heaven

There you go again.
Am I misunderstanding??

You just said that obeying God will NOT get me into heaven.....

You said this:
"lol.. you can obey God all you want. It will not get you into heaven"


Like I've been saying...your theology leads to statements such as the above.
Exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught.


Matthew 7:23 The lawless will not see heaven.
Not obeying God is being lawless.

Thats what the cross was for.

What was the cross for?
Was it to abolish the necessity for good works?
Post a scripture.

I gave you tons of verses that said faith and nothing else

You gave verses stating BELIEVE.
Believe means something which you do not care to acknowledge.

So this strawman will not help you

Pump your chest like a pharisee. It will not affect my salvation..

It might affect the salvation of someone who is reading along and thinking that
obedience to §God is covered by the cross and is thus not necessary.

 

[Manasseh]

God’s plan is so simple:

We are guilty.
Our guilt earned us death.
Christ died in our place.
We admit we are guilty.
We trust that Christ was punished in our place.
We are declared “not guilty.”

That’s it! And yet that is what some argue we can lose. But how? How can I lose Christ’s payment for my sin? Can God declare me “guilty” after He has already declared me “not guilty”? As in jurisprudence, double jeopardy is a procedural defence that prevents an accused person from being tried again on the same charges following an acquittal or conviction

“But, wait,” the skeptic counters, “what about the sins you commit after He declares you ‘not guilty’?”
Good question. But think about it. Which of your sins did Christ take to the cross two thousand years ago? Which of your sins was He punished for? If He died for only part of your sins—for instance, the ones you had committed up to the point of salvation—how can you ever get forgiveness for the sins you commit after that? Would Christ not have to come and die again? And for that matter, again and again and again?

If all your sins were not dealt with on the cross two thousand years ago, there is no hope for you! God declared you “not guilty” the first time based on the provision of His Son. On what basis could He declare you “not guilty” the second time?

 

[GodsGrace]

God’s plan is so simple:

We are guilty.
Our guilt earned us death.
Christ died in our place.
We admit we are guilty.
We trust that Christ was punished in our place.
We are declared “not guilty.”

That’s it! And yet that is what some argue we can lose. But how? How can I lose Christ’s payment for my sin? Can God declare me “guilty” after He has already declared me “not guilty”? As in jurisprudence, double jeopardy is a procedural defence that prevents an accused person from being tried again on the same charges following an acquittal or conviction

“But, wait,” the skeptic counters, “what about the sins you commit after He declares you ‘not guilty’?”
Good question. But think about it. Which of your sins did Christ take to the cross two thousand years ago? Which of your sins was He punished for? If He died for only part of your sins—for instance, the ones you had committed up to the point of salvation—how can you ever get forgiveness for the sins you commit after that? Would Christ not have to come and die again? And for that matter, again and again and again?

If all your sins were not dealt with on the cross two thousand years ago, there is no hope for you! God declared you “not guilty” the first time based on the provision of His Son. On what basis could He declare you “not guilty” the second time?

Who are you speaking to Manasseh?

We're not discussing sin here.
We will always sin for as long as we live.

As to being tried again for the same charges....
If your found not guilty of murder...
is it OK if you murder again?

And, analogies really don't work well with §God.
Scripture works well.
Post some scripture that states that we cannot ever lose our salvation once we have obtained it.

My position is that we are required to obey God after salvation.
Do you agree?

Does obeying God include doing good works as Jesus taught?
Or is it OK to deny His teachings and is it OK to disobey Jesus, who is God?