Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Tranquil]

God’s plan is so simple:

We are guilty.
Our guilt earned us death.
Christ died in our place.
We admit we are guilty.
We trust that Christ was punished in our place.
We are declared “not guilty.”

That’s it! And yet that is what some argue we can lose. But how? How can I lose Christ’s payment for my sin? Can God declare me “guilty” after He has already declared me “not guilty”? As in jurisprudence, double jeopardy is a procedural defence that prevents an accused person from being tried again on the same charges following an acquittal or conviction

“But, wait,” the skeptic counters, “what about the sins you commit after He declares you ‘not guilty’?”
Good question. But think about it. Which of your sins did Christ take to the cross two thousand years ago? Which of your sins was He punished for? If He died for only part of your sins—for instance, the ones you had committed up to the point of salvation—how can you ever get forgiveness for the sins you commit after that? Would Christ not have to come and die again? And for that matter, again and again and again?

If all your sins were not dealt with on the cross two thousand years ago, there is no hope for you! God declared you “not guilty” the first time based on the provision of His Son. On what basis could He declare you “not guilty” the second time?

Correct. The next time Christ shows up on the earth His agenda will not include dying for the sins He missed the first time around.

Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.
Hebrews 9:28

The Scripture is clear. Christ, unlike sheep and goats, needed to be offered up only once. And God accepted that as the once and for all sacrifice for all men’s sin.

 

[John Paul]

Eternal security (or, what is called perseverance of the saints in Calvinism) is the Protestant notion that, once having attained salvation, a Christian can never possibly lose it, no matter what they do. This is a false and unbiblical doctrine.

Catholics, Orthodox and many strains of Protestants, on the other hand, believe that it’s possible for a regenerate, justified Christian to reject God and his teachings and fall away (apostasy).

Catholics also believe in a strong notion of “moral assurance” of salvation, meaning that if we examine ourselves and make sure we are free of all mortal sin, that we are in good graces with God and would be saved and go to heaven if we died at that moment.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Eternally-Grateful

Please reply to post 2178 where you stated the following in bold:
I just find these statements to be against the word of God.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

post 2178:


There you go again.
Am I misunderstanding??

You just said that obeying God will NOT get me into heaven.....

You said this:
"lol.. you can obey God all you want. It will not get you into heaven"


Like I've been saying...your theology leads to statements such as the above.
Exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught.


Matthew 7:23 The lawless will not see heaven.
Not obeying God is being lawless.

 

[Dizerner]

 

[Jim]

Yes, If we are using them to pay for our sins.

Notice how once again you totally twist my words and make it appear I said somethign I never said

Given that is what you do, it is a bit weird that you call out someone else for doing it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Is this yours?
Ots

 

[Dizerner]

Is this yours?

yep just made it

 

[GodsGrace]

yep just made it

It's really good!

 

[Red Baker]

@Manasseh

That’s it! And yet that is what some argue we can lose. But how? How can I lose Christ’s payment for my sin? Can God declare me “guilty” after He has already declared me “not guilty”? As in jurisprudence, double jeopardy is a procedural defence that prevents an accused person from being tried again on the same charges following an acquittal or conviction

Great point! Is it not amazing, that some think that man in his laws are more righteous than God is, and more merciful than the Lord is.

I have used this one argument several times over the years to prove the doctrine of limited atonement, that if sins have been paid for by Christ, then the justice of God would demand that for anyone whose sins have been atoned for that man must be set free.

The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime .

 

[Dizerner]

It's a conditional payment only made in Christ, that's why union with Christ brings access by faith into grace.

The single verse that tells us even the elect were "without Christ and without God" and also "by nature children of Wrath" shows God does not work on man's system of double jeopardy, and that Calvinism is false and Eternal Justification is a lie.

 

[Red Baker]

@John Paul

Eternal security (or, what is called perseverance of the saints

You need to get your information correct before speaking. Eternal security is not perseverance, but preservation.

Jude 1:1​

“Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:”

Colossians 3:3​

“For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”

in Calvinism

That's a problem different sects, we care little about Calvinism, or armenianism, since there are confused folks in both camps, and there are those that fear God in both camp, so there, let stay with the word of God; but that being said, very little truth ever comes from armenians.

is the Protestant notion

Christian are not protestants, for we have never protested any truths, that would be Catholicism and her daughters who have been to bed with every false cults under heaven~she's a whore and the mothers of whores, Revelation 17:1-7.

once having attained salvation, a Christian can never possibly lose it, no matter what they do. This is a false and unbiblical doctrine.

Once loved always loved, but that does not translate in living anyway one chooses to live. God's children live like the children of God, we are not friends of this world, do not talk like them, love what they loved, do as they do, go where they go, we are actually hated by the world and that's okay with us, they hated our Lord before they ever hated us.

James 4:4​

“Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

We do not seek their false friendship, it is all fake for themselves not for others. We do not take God's love for us as a license to do as we want to do, that's a person with an evil heart of unbelief that do so.

Catholics, Orthodox and many strains of Protestants, on the other hand, believe that it’s possible for a regenerate, justified Christian to reject God and his teachings and fall away (apostasy).

No surprise, the same in Christ's day ~there were Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Herodians, Jews in generally, all oppose the teachings of Christ and his small remnant of believers ~nothing new under the sun.

Catholics also believe in a strong notion of “moral assurance” of salvation, meaning that if we examine ourselves and make sure we are free of all mortal sin, that we are in good graces with God and would be saved and go to heaven if we died at that moment.

Catholics are the least sincere of all false cults, they make a mockery out of true rellgion, they are worse than the Pharisees in Jesus' day.

Btw, what does it mean to be free of all mortal sins? What are mortal sin anyway? You folks have invented a religion of your own, that is so foreign to the scriptures. Is Sodomy a mortal sin in the rellgion of the Man of sin? If so, then most in their leadership are guilty, and this is no secret and most likely worse than we will ever know.

 

[ProDeo]

Are you teaching that there is "another gospel", instituted "AFTER" the first Body of Christ, under the New High Priest of God, obeyed God and received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2?

What ?!

Show me, based on what I said in my post, that deserves such suggestive question.

If so, I would be interested in you showing me in Scriptures where this "new covenant" of which you promote, was instituted.

To begin with Jesus Himself [!]

Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Paul didn't say any of these things you are teaching, in the Chapter you chose to quote from, or in any of his letters.

But the apostle John certainly did.

1John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
1John 3:5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1John 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1John 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

If the religious philosophy of this world you are promoting it true, and men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, no longer have the desire to sin, why are we instructed to "put on the Armor of God, to withstand the wiles of the devil", or "Yield ourselves" and our body to God?

Ah, judgement has started.

The answer my friend is listed above, the words of the apostle of John.

Rom. 8:1 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, "who walk" "not after the flesh", but (WALK) "after the Spirit". 2 For the law of the Spirit of life "in Christ Jesus" hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Jesus "of the bible" says;

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

According to Jesus and Paul, who I believe represent to teaching of the Holy Spirit, if I "WALK" in the Word's of the Lord's Christ, I am "Walking in the Spirit" and therefore am "In Christ". If I only "hear" the Word's of the Jesus "of the Bible", but am not a "DOER" of His Sayings, then I am not "Walking in the Spirit" and I am not "In Christ Jesus". Now I can call Jesus Lord, Lord, I can "Come in His Name", honor Him with my lips, but if I'm not "Walking in His Sayings, as HE did with His Father, and therefore was "In Him", then in like manner, if I don't "WALK" in the Saying of the Jesus "of the Bible, then I am not in Him.

Agreed.

This world's religious system doesn't teach this. But Paul did, and anyone REALLY seeking God will find this same truth, even as I did.

You will not find many people on the forum that don't agree with Rom 8:1 and John 6:63

 

[Red Baker]

@Pro

What ?!

Show me, based on what I said in my post, that deserves such suggestive question.

Welcome....You just joined:

the popular religious traditions of this world's religious system.

 

[GodsGrace]

@John Paul

You need to get your information correct before speaking. Eternal security is not perseverance, but preservation.

Your ignorance of scripture is truly amazing.
Your hatred of catholicism is truly amazing.

Calvinism, of which YOU are a believer, teaches PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.
This is because Calvinists cannot know if they are saved until the end of their lives.
This is when they'll know if §God has decreed them to persevere,,,which is only given, according to Calvin, to those that God has decreed will be saved.

Jude 1:1​

“Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:”

This is Jude 1:1
1 Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Only the KJV has PRESERVED....but no matter.
We must be IN CHRIST at our time of death if we wish to be saved.

Colossians 3:3​

“For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”

See, again, Paul uses the present tense.
Our live must be hidden with Christ...now...not at some time in the past.

We must BELEIVE.
We must ABIDE.
We must TRUST.
We must HAVE FAITH.

Always NOW.

That's a problem different sects, we care little about Calvinism, or armenianism, since there are confused folks in both camps, and there are those that fear God in both camp, so there, let stay with the word of God; but that being said, very little truth ever comes from armenians.

I'd say that Calvinism goes beyond being confused and attracting confused persons.

I'd say that Calvinism is not found in the NT...
And NO truth comes from TULIP.

Christian are not protestants, for we have never protested any truths, that would be Catholicism and her daughters who have been to bed with every false cults under heaven~she's a whore and the mothers of whores, Revelation 17:1-7.

Very nice and §Christianly of you RB.
You'd be banned for this on other forums.

I think there's a rule here too about disparaging remarks made about one's faith....
not going to check it out.

You know,,,calling Catholicism,,,,a whore.
Yes. That goes beyond stating it's incorrect or not biblical.

If it were not for Catholicism....YOU would not be practicing your faith since it would no longer exist due to persecution of the early Christians and all the gnostic beliefs that were denied by the church of the time...
which is the CC.

John Calvin hadn't been born yet.

Once loved always loved, but that does not translate in living anyway one chooses to live. God's children live like the children of God, we are not friends of this world, do not talk like them, love what they loved, do as they do, go where they go, we are actually hated by the world and that's okay with us, they hated our Lord before they ever hated us.

James 4:4​

“Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

We do not seek their false friendship, it is all fake for themselves not for others. We do not take God's love for us as a license to do as we want to do, that's a person with an evil heart of unbelief that do so.

No surprise, the same in Christ's day ~there were Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Herodians, Jews in generally, all oppose the teachings of Christ and his small remnant of believers ~nothing new under the sun.

Odd. Those that agree with OSAS DO make odd statements, such as:
It's not necessary to obey God to get to heaven.
It's not necessary to follow the commandments....
and other such statements.

You, by your stating that OSAS is true, are on their side, actually.

Catholics are the least sincere of all false cults, they make a mockery out of true rellgion, they are worse than the Pharisees in Jesus' day.

You might want to learn that Catholicism is NOT a cult.
Actually, calvinism is the most UNBIBLICAL of all the faith systems of Christianity.
Why?
Because it does not exist in scripture.

Btw, what does it mean to be free of all mortal sins? What are mortal sin anyway? You folks have invented a religion of your own, that is so foreign to the scriptures. Is Sodomy a mortal sin in the rellgion of the Man of sin? If so, then most in their leadership are guilty, and this is no secret and most likely worse than we will ever know.

You've never heard of mortal sin?
Strange. John spoke of it...

1 John 5:16
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

 

[ProDeo]

You can obey all you want

Your obedience will bnot Cause God to forgive you of one sin.

Why do you wish to be like a pharisee and not a tax collector who went home justified?

Ladies and gentlemen

It's and/and not and/or nor or/or

The order:
. Grace from God in Jesus
. Faith (our response)
. Repentance
. Fruits (obliged)
. Salvation
. Perseverance.

In that order and the order can't be broken.

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

Your hatred of catholicism is truly amazing.

Every child of God should despise Catholicism, it is the biggest whore in Mystery Babylon without a question. I have no love for that false cult ~ no more than Elijah did for the false prophets of Baal ~ maybe you need to read 1st Kings 18. Was Elijah's hatred for the Baal worshippers truly amazing in your eyes, I'm sure it was.

Calvinism, of which YOU are a believer, teaches PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.

I know well what Calvinism teaches on that subject, but we do not.

This is because Calvinists cannot know if they are saved until the end of their lives.

Again, what you think you know, and what truly is the truth are not even close. You cannot speak for me, concerning what I believe and understand. You are one of those folks that men wish they could buy you for what you are worth, and then sell you for what YOU think you are worth, they would get a great gain.

Only the KJV has PRESERVED....but no matter.
We must be IN CHRIST at our time of death if we wish to be saved.

So, the truth is this...it is folks like you who truly cannot know if they are saved until they take their last breath! Pitiful. Eternal life was secured for God's elect by their surety...Jesus Christ, not by what we can or cannot do! God's elect have been IN Christ from the foundation of the world and our life is NOW hid WITH CHRIST in God! Scriptures provided already above. Colossians 3.

We must BELEIVE.
We must ABIDE.
We must TRUST.
We must HAVE FAITH.

Your gospel is well defined by your own words! It is a gospel of works......."we"

Galatians 2:21​

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

By the law is defined as any work that man have an active part in! In gospel it is ALL man.

You know,,,calling Catholicism,,,,a whore.
Yes. That goes beyond stating it's incorrect or not biblical.

What should we do with Revelation 17? Cut out of our bibles? Just because Rome is in your backdoor does not mean that it is not your duty as a Christian to not expose their lies and corruption.

If it were not for Catholicism....YOU would not be practicing your faith since it would no longer exist due to persecution of the early Christians and all the gnostic beliefs that were denied by the church of the time...
which is the CC.

I owe nothing to Rome, and truly if God destroys it today, I would lose nothing.. Read Foxe's Book of Martyrs, the RCC killed our forefathers. The Pharisees of the NT were more righteous than RCC.

You might want to learn that Catholicism is NOT a cult.

She is a whore, period. The man of sin sits and rules therein! Of course he is one of many, nevertheless, I agree with John in Revelation 17.

Actually, calvinism is the most UNBIBLICAL of all the faith systems of Christianity.
Why?

Really, then you should never again sing Amazing Grace by John Newton a Calvinist...and many more I could name. You said I hated RCC religion and I DO, yet your hatred for Calvinism is greater, even in the light of so many godly folks that has taught Calvinism. Do you sing Rock Ages? There is a fountain filled with Blood? All written by men who believed in the doctrine of grace, and more could be added.

You've never heard of mortal sin?
Strange. John spoke of it...

Explain what is mortal sin, if you keep talking you will reveal your true colors, RCC! Which I had already expected.



https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...-6rxNeNAxX248kDHf-mNaIQyNoBKAB6BAggEAA&ictx=1

 

[John Paul]

@Red Baker

THE NAMES GIVEN TO THIS DOCTRINE

A. THE DOCTRINE OF “ONCE IN GRACE, ALWAYS IN GRACE”—This is the name commonly used by lay Christians.

B. THE DOCTRINE OF “ETERNAL SECURITY” OR THE DOCTRINE OF “THE SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER”—This is the name used by seminary and Bible-college students.

C. THE DOCTRINE OF “THE PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS”—This is the title used by theologians and commentators. This title is a little elevated and is a title that is seldom used by the common run of Christians.

III. THE CORRECT STATEMENT OF THIS DOCTRINE

A. WHAT THIS DOCTRINE DOES NOT TEACH
1. It does not teach that all professing Christians are going to heaven—Many professing Christians are not possessing Christians (are not real Christians). “All that glitters is not gold.” Only true Christians are on their way to heaven.
2. It does not teach that Christians can do as they please and yet go to heaven—Persons who live to please themselves are antinomians and are not true Christians, for true Christians both live and die to please the Lord, Rom. 14:6–9; 2 Cor. 5:9, 10.
3. It does not teach that Christians can live in sin and yet go to heaven—Professing Christians who live in sin are not genuine Christians for genuine Christians cannot live in sin, Rom. 6:14; 1 John 3:9; 5:18.
4. It does not teach that Christians have no need of diligence as they journey onward toward heaven—God motivates Christians to exercise diligence in resisting the temptations of Satan and in using the means of grace, for it is only through diligence in these things that we arrive safely at the goal. God has ordained that Christians use a sure means, diligence, to bring us to a sure end, final salvation.
5. It does not teach that Christians are (against their will) forced to go to heaven—Christians are not forced (by God’s physical power) to journey onward to heaven but are constrained (by God’s moral persuasion power) to press on to this goal.


Roy E. Gingrich, The Perseverance of the Saints

 

[Studyman]

You took off running to Moses,

The Scriptures you posted referenced the Christ's Law that HE gave to Moses concerning the Temporary Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of Sins, that was to be a covering for the people and was to be in place until the Prophesied Priest of God, that Moses spoke to in Duet. 18, should come. Isn't Paul explaining to the Jews in the Jews Synagogue, through the teaching of Moses and the Prophets, that this Priest had Come as Prophesied?

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, "which is spoken of in the prophets"

Paul's entire sermon was from Moses and the Prophets.

I addressed this in a post I sent to you, because YOU SAID I wouldn't believe Paul and the Apostles, and you replied "I took off running to Moses".

And then out of the other side of your mouth, you lied by saying I didn't even address the one verse you posted.

and never even addressed what I said either with Acts 13:39,

Really Red, if you can't be truthful, then please stop preach to me.

It's easy to blindly accuse Red. But exactly what is it that the Apostles taught in Acts 13 that I don't believe?

And if you refuse to engage, and provide me with evidence of your accusation, what am I to perceive about your accusation?

If you had believed Moses when he pointed out the Sin in such behavior, you would also have believed the Jesus "of the bible" when HE taught the same thing. But you continue in the behavior or accusing "without a cause or any evidence", which is a Sin, defined and detailed by the very Holy One of Israel given to Moses. Why would you do this? Jesus explains why, if you would only believe Him.

Luke 16: And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses" and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

nor Jude 1:1;

Again, you posted Jude 1:1, and asked me a question.

Jude 1:1​

“Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:”
"Do you believe" those three great truths in one sentence?

I addressed your post,

"I believe EVERY WORD of Jude". Here, lets look at what the Chapter actually says.

And I offered for your examination and discussion more than just "ONE" sentence from Jude, because even a nobody like me knows you can't understand anyone, by ignoring 95% of the words they speak to you.

So I posted more of Jude's words, asked question about them and answered your question again.

Yes Red, I understand and believe ALL of Jude. Not just the first sentence.

And you responded by telling the lie. "and never even addressed what I said either with Acts 13:39, nor Jude 1:1;"

I don't believe in the "debate tradition" that you live by, that you call "debating doctrine". It seems to me that to debate scriptures, is to post a message from the Word of God, and then examine them for the purpose of SEEKING what God intended us to glean from the message. This involves "ALL SCRIPTURE" according to Paul.

Please, if you can't be honest, don't preach to me.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Given that is what you do, it is a bit weird that you call out someone else for doing it?

Talk about a joke

You still denying that you believe forgiveness and remission of sin is done through water baptism as you preach?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It's a conditional payment only made in Christ, that's why union with Christ brings access by faith into grace.

The single verse that tells us even the elect were "without Christ and without God" and also "by nature children of Wrath" shows God does not work on man's system of double jeopardy, and that Calvinism is false and Eternal Justification is a lie.

so eternal life is a lie

Got it

when is christ going to come back and die for the sins he missed?