Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Dizerner]

Dizerner,,,,you're not Jesus.

This is so stupid.

Do you think that acting like Jesus means literally being Jesus?

I've heard this before and, let me tell you, it doesn't work very well when WE try to do what Jesus did.
Jesus had authority,,,we do NOT have the authority to treat others badly.
After which, BTW, they will NEVER listen to you anymore.

First of all, Jesus did NOT treat anyone badly, lol.

What are you thinking? How can you insult Christ?!

Second of all, NOTHING I said claimed to have the authority of Christ.

LITERALLY NOTHING.

The Bible nowhere says, "Only Christ has the authority to exhort people."

It says the opposite.

Your belief is like some kind of Catholic clergy versus laity class, where the lower ones are not allowed to say anything.

And you are absolutely wrong that preaching the Word "doesn't work very well."

That is denying the power of the Holy Spirit when God said his Word would NOT return to him void.

But often it acts like Pharaoh when people harden their hearts over and over to it.

You can tell persons hard truths and still treat them with respect and try to be nice.
Sometimes we fail...but at least that should be our goal

Nothing I said was disrespectful. NOTHING.

Saying "We should not assume anyone is saved" is NOT disrespectful.

What kind of strange irrational conclusion is that.

Do you know Mormons and JW and Muslims all think they are "saved" and going to heaven?

I am not RESPECTING them by just assuming they are saved. What in the world, man.

It's not up to YOU to tell ME I have to examine myself.
Personal comments are usually a very bad idea on Forums.

Lol. Do you not realize how many personal things you say?

Do you not realize every single thing you said to me here is personal correction and judging my sanctification?

Setting up a false double standard whereby there is license to do what one denies others, is hypocrisy.

Are you one of those persons that feel they could lose their salvation at any moment?
Do we go from one extreme to the other on these Forums?

I've preached against being too fearful many times, even in this thread.

It is a lack of respect that you did not even notice.

And NOTHING I said—literally NOTHING—indicates this position.

Being careful and acknowledging salvation can be lost does not logically lead to this, it's a fallacious.

Leviticus. Right. I don't think that'll work in our society/culture.

What?!

You do realize that actual real Christianity is NEVER going to be accepted by worldly people, right?

And never was?!!

You think our "society/culture" accepts God's holiness and morality?!

You think our "society/culture" accepts Christ's Lordship?

What are you thinking?!

This is what I mean.
How do YOU KNOW I'm doing theology without the Holy Spirit?

Because you call the Holy Spirit OFF TOPIC, lol

He's not OFF TOPIC to anything spiritual, what in the world.

You literally said depending on the Holy Spirit is off topic.

What do you want me to do?!!!

Agree with you and say, "Oh yeah, we should never, ever talk about depending on the Holy Spirit."

HE IS NOT OFF TOPIC.

You accused both myself and another member of not being Christian.

That's false actually.

You all just took a spirit offense and twisted what I said into that.

If I say I am AGNOSTIC about a person's salvation, that is saying I DO NOT KNOW.

That is REFRAINING from saying you either are or are not.

So now you falsely accused me.

But I won't report you like a petulant child.

Nor take offense for no reason.

This is frowned upon on these forums and may be the reason you got banned.

How dare you assume without asking why I got banned.

I know exactly why I got banned, and it was not this.

Although if it WAS the reason of saying we should be agnostic about people's salvation, that would still be UNJUST.

It's not up to YOU to know who is saved and who is not.

NOTHING I said, literally NOTHING I said, concludes to that.

Stop making things up just to try to insult me.

You can judge someone's BEHAVIOR,,,
but you cannot judge their SOUL.
That's up to God and God ALONE.

Well, we cannot ultimately know, but Scripture does encourage us to judge people's fruit.

And not make assumptions.

Like your fruit here is horrible, you slandered, misrepresented and disrespected me at every turn.

While hypocritically and falsely accusing ME of doing that when nothing I did was disrespectful.

That does NOT mean you are not saved, you could be a Christian giving into sin and acting in the flesh.

But I cannot know that, this is why I preach the Gospel to everyone.

I'm ignoring this comment.

I've never put anyone ignore, but a couple of times I almost had to.

When a person literally no longer listens to any valid points you are making and twists everything you say—

they may have hardened their heart beyond listening to anything true anymore.

But I will always do my best to speak the truth and pray, it's all I can do.

Please seriously consider what I said here, because your actions are not Christ-like.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is so stupid.

Do you think that acting like Jesus means literally being Jesus?



First of all, Jesus did NOT treat anyone badly, lol.

What are you thinking? How can you insult Christ?!

Second of all, NOTHING I said claimed to have the authority of Christ.

LITERALLY NOTHING.

The Bible nowhere says, "Only Christ has the authority to exhort people."

It says the opposite.

Your belief is like some kind of Catholic clergy versus laity class, where the lower ones are not allowed to say anything.

And you are absolutely wrong that preaching the Word "doesn't work very well."

That is denying the power of the Holy Spirit when God said his Word would NOT return to him void.

But often it acts like Pharaoh when people harden their hearts over and over to it.



Nothing I said was disrespectful. NOTHING.

Saying "We should not assume anyone is saved" is NOT disrespectful.

What kind of strange irrational conclusion is that.

Do you know Mormons and JW and Muslims all think they are "saved" and going to heaven?

I am not RESPECTING them by just assuming they are saved. What in the world, man.



Lol. Do you not realize how many personal things you say?

Do you not realize every single thing you said to me here is personal correction and judging my sanctification?

Setting up a false double standard whereby there is license to do what one denies others, is hypocrisy.



I've preached against being too fearful many times, even in this thread.

It is a lack of respect that you did not even notice.

And NOTHING I said—literally NOTHING—indicates this position.

Being careful and acknowledging salvation can be lost does not logically lead to this, it's a fallacious.



What?!

You do realize that actual real Christianity is NEVER going to be accepted by worldly people, right?

And never was?!!

You think our "society/culture" accepts God's holiness and morality?!

You think our "society/culture" accepts Christ's Lordship?

What are you thinking?!



Because you call the Holy Spirit OFF TOPIC, lol

He's not OFF TOPIC to anything spiritual, what in the world.

You literally said depending on the Holy Spirit is off topic.

What do you want me to do?!!!

Agree with you and say, "Oh yeah, we should never, ever talk about depending on the Holy Spirit."

HE IS NOT OFF TOPIC.



That's false actually.

You all just took a spirit offense and twisted what I said into that.

If I say I am AGNOSTIC about a person's salvation, that is saying I DO NOT KNOW.

That is REFRAINING from saying you either are or are not.

So now you falsely accused me.

But I won't report you like a petulant child.

Nor take offense for no reason.



How dare you assume without asking why I got banned.

I know exactly why I got banned, and it was not this.

Although if it WAS the reason of saying we should be agnostic about people's salvation, that would still be UNJUST.



NOTHING I said, literally NOTHING I said, concludes to that.

Stop making things up just to try to insult me.



Well, we cannot ultimately know, but Scripture does encourage us to judge people's fruit.

And not make assumptions.

Like your fruit here is horrible, you slandered, misrepresented and disrespected me at every turn.

While hypocritically and falsely accusing ME of doing that when nothing I did was disrespectful.

That does NOT mean you are not saved, you could be a Christian giving into sin and acting in the flesh.

But I cannot know that, this is why I preach the Gospel to everyone.



I've never put anyone ignore, but a couple of times I almost had to.

When a person literally no longer listens to any valid points you are making and twists everything you say—

they may have hardened their heart beyond listening to anything true anymore.

But I will always do my best to speak the truth and pray, it's all I can do.

Please seriously consider what I said here, because your actions are not Christ-like.

Calm down Dizerner.
I have nothing further to say on the subject.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is so stupid.

Do you think that acting like Jesus means literally being Jesus?



First of all, Jesus did NOT treat anyone badly, lol.

What are you thinking? How can you insult Christ?!

Second of all, NOTHING I said claimed to have the authority of Christ.

LITERALLY NOTHING.

The Bible nowhere says, "Only Christ has the authority to exhort people."

It says the opposite.

Your belief is like some kind of Catholic clergy versus laity class, where the lower ones are not allowed to say anything.

And you are absolutely wrong that preaching the Word "doesn't work very well."

That is denying the power of the Holy Spirit when God said his Word would NOT return to him void.

But often it acts like Pharaoh when people harden their hearts over and over to it.



Nothing I said was disrespectful. NOTHING.

Saying "We should not assume anyone is saved" is NOT disrespectful.

What kind of strange irrational conclusion is that.

Do you know Mormons and JW and Muslims all think they are "saved" and going to heaven?

I am not RESPECTING them by just assuming they are saved. What in the world, man.



Lol. Do you not realize how many personal things you say?

Do you not realize every single thing you said to me here is personal correction and judging my sanctification?

Setting up a false double standard whereby there is license to do what one denies others, is hypocrisy.



I've preached against being too fearful many times, even in this thread.

It is a lack of respect that you did not even notice.

And NOTHING I said—literally NOTHING—indicates this position.

Being careful and acknowledging salvation can be lost does not logically lead to this, it's a fallacious.



What?!

You do realize that actual real Christianity is NEVER going to be accepted by worldly people, right?

And never was?!!

You think our "society/culture" accepts God's holiness and morality?!

You think our "society/culture" accepts Christ's Lordship?

What are you thinking?!



Because you call the Holy Spirit OFF TOPIC, lol

He's not OFF TOPIC to anything spiritual, what in the world.

You literally said depending on the Holy Spirit is off topic.

What do you want me to do?!!!

Agree with you and say, "Oh yeah, we should never, ever talk about depending on the Holy Spirit."

HE IS NOT OFF TOPIC.



That's false actually.

You all just took a spirit offense and twisted what I said into that.

If I say I am AGNOSTIC about a person's salvation, that is saying I DO NOT KNOW.

That is REFRAINING from saying you either are or are not.

So now you falsely accused me.

But I won't report you like a petulant child.

Nor take offense for no reason.



How dare you assume without asking why I got banned.

I know exactly why I got banned, and it was not this.

Although if it WAS the reason of saying we should be agnostic about people's salvation, that would still be UNJUST.



NOTHING I said, literally NOTHING I said, concludes to that.

Stop making things up just to try to insult me.



Well, we cannot ultimately know, but Scripture does encourage us to judge people's fruit.

And not make assumptions.

Like your fruit here is horrible, you slandered, misrepresented and disrespected me at every turn.

While hypocritically and falsely accusing ME of doing that when nothing I did was disrespectful.

That does NOT mean you are not saved, you could be a Christian giving into sin and acting in the flesh.

But I cannot know that, this is why I preach the Gospel to everyone.



I've never put anyone ignore, but a couple of times I almost had to.

PS
I did NOT say I was putting you on ignore.
I said I was ignoring your comment.

You need to read more slowly and listen to what a member is saying.

End.

When a person literally no longer listens to any valid points you are making and twists everything you say—

they may have hardened their heart beyond listening to anything true anymore.

But I will always do my best to speak the truth and pray, it's all I can do.

Please seriously consider what I said here, because your actions are not Christ-like.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is so stupid.

Do you think that acting like Jesus means literally being Jesus?

Oh. And thanks for calling me stupid.
And yes....
I kind of, like, thought, like, that if I, like acted like Jesus...
I would, like, become Jesus.

You mean this ain't so???
Bummer.

First of all, Jesus did NOT treat anyone badly, lol.

What are you thinking? How can you insult Christ?!

Second of all, NOTHING I said claimed to have the authority of Christ.

LITERALLY NOTHING.

The Bible nowhere says, "Only Christ has the authority to exhort people."

It says the opposite.

Your belief is like some kind of Catholic clergy versus laity class, where the lower ones are not allowed to say anything.

And you are absolutely wrong that preaching the Word "doesn't work very well."

That is denying the power of the Holy Spirit when God said his Word would NOT return to him void.

But often it acts like Pharaoh when people harden their hearts over and over to it.



Nothing I said was disrespectful. NOTHING.

Saying "We should not assume anyone is saved" is NOT disrespectful.

What kind of strange irrational conclusion is that.

Do you know Mormons and JW and Muslims all think they are "saved" and going to heaven?

I am not RESPECTING them by just assuming they are saved. What in the world, man.



Lol. Do you not realize how many personal things you say?

Do you not realize every single thing you said to me here is personal correction and judging my sanctification?

Setting up a false double standard whereby there is license to do what one denies others, is hypocrisy.



I've preached against being too fearful many times, even in this thread.

It is a lack of respect that you did not even notice.

And NOTHING I said—literally NOTHING—indicates this position.

Being careful and acknowledging salvation can be lost does not logically lead to this, it's a fallacious.



What?!

You do realize that actual real Christianity is NEVER going to be accepted by worldly people, right?

And never was?!!

You think our "society/culture" accepts God's holiness and morality?!

You think our "society/culture" accepts Christ's Lordship?

What are you thinking?!



Because you call the Holy Spirit OFF TOPIC, lol

He's not OFF TOPIC to anything spiritual, what in the world.

You literally said depending on the Holy Spirit is off topic.

What do you want me to do?!!!

Agree with you and say, "Oh yeah, we should never, ever talk about depending on the Holy Spirit."

HE IS NOT OFF TOPIC.



That's false actually.

You all just took a spirit offense and twisted what I said into that.

If I say I am AGNOSTIC about a person's salvation, that is saying I DO NOT KNOW.

That is REFRAINING from saying you either are or are not.

So now you falsely accused me.

But I won't report you like a petulant child.

Nor take offense for no reason.



How dare you assume without asking why I got banned.

I know exactly why I got banned, and it was not this.

Although if it WAS the reason of saying we should be agnostic about people's salvation, that would still be UNJUST.



NOTHING I said, literally NOTHING I said, concludes to that.

Stop making things up just to try to insult me.



Well, we cannot ultimately know, but Scripture does encourage us to judge people's fruit.

And not make assumptions.

Like your fruit here is horrible, you slandered, misrepresented and disrespected me at every turn.

While hypocritically and falsely accusing ME of doing that when nothing I did was disrespectful.

That does NOT mean you are not saved, you could be a Christian giving into sin and acting in the flesh.

But I cannot know that, this is why I preach the Gospel to everyone.



I've never put anyone ignore, but a couple of times I almost had to.

When a person literally no longer listens to any valid points you are making and twists everything you say—

they may have hardened their heart beyond listening to anything true anymore.

But I will always do my best to speak the truth and pray, it's all I can do.

Please seriously consider what I said here, because your actions are not Christ-like.

 

[Studyman]

Again, we must rightly divide the word of God, laws that governed Israel, and only Israel cannot be put on the neck of NT saints, and there are many of such laws ~even in Leviticus 19 that you quoted.

Paul said that the Exodus, the Laws of God, the Law and Prophets were all written for our admonition, for our sakes no doubt, "upon whom the ends of the world have come". And Jesus said we are to "Live By" these same Words.

These Words teach me, and I posted them for you, but you completely rejected and ignored them, that a true Israelite/Jew/Child of Abraham "IS" anyone/everyone "that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant".

How can you understand God's Laws in Lev. 19, if you don't even Believe what Jesus and Paul said about them.

There is no use continuing with you, as Jesus tells me.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

But for those reading along, men can ignore the Christ's Words all they want, but it won't matter because they last forever.

Those self proclaimed Christians in Matt. 7:22 also believed, just as Red does. But they found out that only those "Learned of the Father" are given to the Jesus "of the Bible". And if God doesn't give us to Jesus, then Jesus doesn't know us. I know many can't receive these truths, Jesus just told me so. But for those reading along, I hope they might consider why God had Leviticus and the Law and Prophets written in the first place. It wasn't for them, it was for us.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for "our admonition", upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore (Because of this) let him that thinketh he standeth "take heed" lest he fall.

 

[Studyman]

I read about it when I was searching for a explanation of Rom 8:30. At that time I only had a calvinist explanation. I don't remember where I read it. But you guessed correctly what convinced me that it was the OT Saints that Paul was talking about. It was the past tense of the word glorified. Only OT Saints could be logically deemed as having been glorified at that time.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I think you make a great point. Abraham for instance. God could see the end of his life from the beginning. God knew Abraham would "Glorify God, AS God", and "Yield himself" to Him in obedience, even in his old age. Now I don't believe Jesus has returned yet, but when HE does, Abraham "Will Be" conformed to the image of Christ. We don't yet know what that will be, but when Jesus returns, we will see Him as He is. That Abel, Noah, Abraham might be the firstborn of "many" brethren.

Now Abraham was also called, and forgiven (Justified) based on Abraham's repentance, and Glorified. Who doesn't know about Abraham? I find this reality astonishing. Who among Sodom do we know about? Not one person. But Abraham had a different spirit on him, like Caleb.

We too, can become Abraham's Children, as Jesus said, by doing the "works" of Abraham. We don't know for sure our outcome, we live by Faith, just as Abraham did. Paul really drove this home for me in Philippians 3. If you don't mind, I would like to share my understanding of his words.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, (Pharisees Law, or bringing a goat to the Levite Priest, I lean towards the latter) but that which is through the faith of Christ, (Lamb of God) the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Not sacrificial works of the law)

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, (denial of the flesh, obedience to God) being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: "but this one thing I do", forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth "unto those things which are before", (Another "Today" that when I hear His Voice, I will not harden my heart)

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God (Which is ) in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, "as many as be perfect", (as Jesus commanded) be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Isn't this the goal of Every example of Faithful man "Glorified" in the Scriptures?

Have we not also been called to the same destination?

Great points Synergy. Sorry so long.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

I'll give my Spiritual understanding of the word, as it won't matter anyway, given your mission here.

In all sincerity, thank you for taking the time to give your understanding of "Mystery Babylon, the great". I want to finish with posting to one more person, then I will make a few comments.

 

[Red Baker]

@JLB @MTMattie (I included you because of what you said in your post #1371 hope this will help even more.)

By saying the difference between the two, I take it to mean the difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ.

The law of Moses as contained and summed up in the Ten Commandments, and the Law of Christ as found in Galatians.

Galatians 6:2​

“Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.”

The Law of Christ, and the law of God are one and the same, since the Godhead are one, not three separated Gods. Jesus was God manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh. As a man, Jesus lived in total obedience in thoughts, words, and deeds to the law of God, from conception, to his death on the cross ~ it was his greatest delight/love. So, the law of Christ, is no other than the law of God, the most holy, spiritual, and good laws, that could be given, ever. The term law of Christ, simply means the law he lived by, which example we are to follow. 1st Peter 2:21

Galatians 6:2​

“Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.”

Jesus lived out the law of God perfectly by LOVE for God and others which all the law can be summed up in loving God and our neighbors as our own selves.

Matthew 22:37-40~"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

In Galatians 6:2 where the law of Christ is mentioned, Jesus explains what true love for others does...or what are good works that proves our faith.

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.​

Love is not all fuzzy, happy, and warm feelings; it is work to help another finish his race. It is not participating in one another’s pleasures as much as helping take away pain. Rather than riding along on a balloon flight, it is carrying them to the finish line.

It is very easy for lazy, proud, or selfish professors to ignore the burdens of others. It is a natural instinct for them to say, “ I don’t want to get involved in others’ business.” It is a natural instinct for them to say, “He got himself into it; he can get himself out.” It is a natural instinct for them to say, “I have enough of my own problems to deal with.”

We are bound as true followers of God to bear others’ burdens on a brother-to-brother basis. We must be committed to love other believers and bear their burdens.

In the military, they say, “I got your back,” meaning they will protect one another.

The law of Jesus Christ is simple – we love and serve one another (5:13-14; John 13:34). It is living as he lived to the Law of his God, as a man. 1st Peter 2:21, etc.

The law of Jesus Christ does not include any of the ceremonial trappings of Moses under the NT. The Lord Jesus Christ emphasized this important grace of the Spirit from the beginning.

How do you bear burdens? By helping support any weight that presses another brother down. We bear burdens in converting wayward brothers back to the truth (6:1; James 5:19-20). We bear burdens for the weak in spirit, body, or liberty (Ist Thess 5:14; Rom 14:13-21). We bear burdens by praying one for another (James 5:16; Ephesians 6:18). We bear burdens by suffering with those who suffer (Romans 12:15; Ist Cor 12:26; Hebrews 13:3). We bear burdens by doing all we can to support money wise one another (Rom 15:1-7) when needed without grudging. We bear burdens by comforting and encouraging the cast down (Ist Thess 4:18). etc., etc.

Much of what you said in your post we would agreed with as far as the two covenants goes.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Paul said that the Exodus, the Laws of God, the Law and Prophets were all written for our admonition, for our sakes no doubt, "upon whom the ends of the world have come". And Jesus said we are to "Live By" these same Words.

Studyman, do you believe what you just posted, so do I? Do not leave out Genesis. As Noah was leaving the Ark. God said this to him:

Genesis 9:3​

“Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.”

This before there was a nation of Israel! Which should prove to you that those dietary laws were only given to Israel, and ONLY until Christ, and then to be done away with. What clearer evidence do you need to show you your position is terribly wrong and even worse, against God's word.

These Words teach me, and I posted them for you, but you completely rejected and ignored them, that a true Israelite/Jew/Child of Abraham "IS" anyone/everyone "that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant".

I do not ignore scriptures presented to me, so you can stop saying that to be true. Again, we are not under the Jewish Sabbath, even though I do believe we should rest our bodies one day in seven, be whatever that day may be for you~it would be different for different folks ~ since the law enforcement workers and hospitals employees must operate every day of the week. Yet, the strict Jewish Sabbath day we are not under ~ under the NT, since we worship the first day of the week, not on Saturday, as the SDA do.

How can you understand God's Laws in Lev. 19, if you don't even Believe what Jesus and Paul said about them.

But I do, by rightly dividing the word of truth.

Those self proclaimed Christians in Matt. 7:22 also believed, just as Red does.

I do not practice casting our devils, (even though I do believe folks are possessed by them) and I certianly have never done any wonderful works in Christ's name, not one.

But they found out that only those "Learned of the Father" are given to the Jesus "of the Bible".

What do you mean~"Learned of the Father" ~I know well that God's elect were given to Christ to be a surety for, which he perfectly fulfilled.

And if God doesn't give us to Jesus, then Jesus doesn't know us.

I can accept that as a bible truth, probaly not in the way you are thinking.

I know many can't receive these truths

Studyman, again, I would agree with you, just not in the sense in whcih you do.

 

[armylngst]

I'm sorry army.
There's a miscommunication here.
You are properly representing Jesus in your above statements as to what He said in Matthew 7:21

What I was referring to, instead, are the following comments that you made in the said post:

"HE NEVER HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM"
"HE NEVER FELLOWSHIPPED WITH THEM"
"THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH"
"IT ISN'T WHO YOU CLAIM TO KNOW...IT'S WHO KNOWS YOU"
The above comments were never made by Jesus.
You are adding to scripture by interjecting your own belief system.

If He never knew them, then He never had a relationship with them. Kind of speaks for itself. To have a relationship with them is to fellowship with them. They were never saved to begin with, for God would have preserved them in their faith, which, aren't they presenting [their faith] by name dropping? We did all these things in your name. "Depart from me." Jesus cast them out. Didn't Jesus say in John 6 that He would never cast out those who came to Him?

John 6
""37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

I'm not interjecting my own belief, it is the testimony of scripture, and in this case, the testimony of Jesus Himself. Consider that Judas was among those who came to Jesus. Judas was most certainly cast out. Why? Judas did not come to Christ in true belief. How can we be sure?
"70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, [k]was going to betray Him."

What did He say previously?
" 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would [j]betray Him."
The one's who did not believe were all but the 12 who remained, and Judas was the one that would betray Him. Judas did not all of a sudden become that person. He was cursed the day he was born.

Given John 6, it should be clear what Matthew 7 is talking about. They were never saved because God had not given them to Christ. If the Father had given them to Christ, then He would not have cast them out. You need to take the whole testimony of scripture.

Please explain what you mean by SALVATION BY WORKS.

I shouldn't have to, but salvation by works is believing that good works save us. That somehow we can do enough good works to outweigh our sin, and thus be saved by works. By our own merit. The true believer is saved by grace through Christ's merit. Judaizers held a form of salvation by works by teaching that one finds salvation in keeping the Law.

Agreed.
Have you made Jesus Lord?
What does this mean?

To make Jesus Lord is to believe, be saved, and follow Christ only. We no longer live to ourselves or to sin. It speaks also to our sanctification, where we live to become more like Christ.

Ok.
So you do believe in good works?

There are no boy scouts. No merit badges to get into heaven. To believe in good works in connection to salvation is to run contrary to what Paul taught in Galatians. It is to believe that the cross is not enough. We have to add to it with our good works.

1. I don't care for John MacArthur because I don't share his theology.

I brought him up only because he helped put Lordship Salvation on the map with his book "The Gospel According to Jesus". It was simply because Lordship salvation came up.

2. Jesus spoke in parables to TEACH SOMETHING that could be easily understood.

Please use scripture. Scripture says that He spoke in parables so they would not understand. That seeing they would not see, and hearing they would not hear, lest they believe, turn to God and He heal them. It was a judgment, and a mercy. The only ones who were to understand were the disciples, because the understanding had been entrusted to them.

Because Jesus spoke in parables does not make His teaching any less important.
We are to learn from Jesus
NOT from John MacArthur.

But you don't understand what the parables are teaching. The Prodigal son is not speaking of one who is saved, loses their faith, and comes back. We are born in sin. Some go on to live in heinous sin apart from God. Some stay close to God, but never actually accept and believe to salvation. They are represented by the elder son who was so evil. The worst kind. The backstabber. The one who remains just to see you die, so they can take everything. They are in part represented by those so called believers who go ballistic if some gross sinner falls before God in true repentance and is saved. Responses as in there is no way God would save someone like you. I mean, look at who you are/were and what you do/did. To them, it is always who you are, and what you do, whereas, as Paul shows, with God it is who you were, and what you did. Paul speaks to previous sinners in the church saying, thanks be to God some of you were FORMERLY those things/those people, but no longer.

There's not such group as ELECT...
In the NT and the OT,,, the ELECT are the Jews through whom God decided to reveal Himself.

Yes, yes there is. Paul brings it up in Ephesians 1, which, strangely, Ephesus was made up of Jews and Gentiles.

At times it also means us,,,the saved,,,
but we're not saved because God chose who will be saved from the beginning of time.

That is exactly why we are saved. God foreordained us to the adoptions of children through Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Because of this, we are chosen to live the standard of His children, that is to be holy and unblemished. That is what that verse is saying. As His children, we are called to live as His children. Reflections of Him. That means, holy and unblemished.

If you want to discuss Hebrews...pick a verse and we'll discuss it.

Try James 2.
"18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith:
19 thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!

Is James actually saying they are doing well as in, they are saved? No. It's a good start. However, hell bound demons believe and they shudder. The strength of their believe is shown by them shuddering. Their belief is founded in actual knowledge. They KNOW God is one. They KNOW who God is. They KNOW who Jesus is. They don't bow in reverence to salvation. They shudder in fear of that truth. James is comparing those who say they believe God is one with the belief of demons. It isn't saying we believe, but we need to actually believe to salvation.

Yes. Maybe when I come to understand John, maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to have a real conversation with you.
In the meantime...post the scripture and stop assuming you know me.

One verse in the NT makes it impossible to regain salvation once we lose it?

John is rather forthright. I John 1 and 2 is intended for believers, and for those who weren't believers. Not to tell them they can do these things and be saved, but to shine the light on them to show them they aren't saved.

In YOUR theology, I guess it's OK since it's GOD that made the person lose their salvation in the first place.
Right?

In my belief, no one can lose their salvation ever. Why? It isn't theirs to lose. Salvation is of God. Justification is not man saying, I am now justified. It is God, declaring before the universe, such and such stands before Me justified. God justifies. Paul is clear. If God justifies, can you point your finger in the face of God and say "NO!!!" Can you tell God you are not justified? God is the final judge, and He is the justifier of our souls. If He says you are justified, you are justified, and there is nothing you can do about it. The idea that one can do something about it speaks to the shallowness of ones understanding. If you want to understand salvation, you have to understand who God is properly, and where you stand. Even Apollos, one of the strongest defenders of God, was pulled aside by some simple church members, who, according to Luke took the time to teach him about God, properly. You have to understand the nature of God. We say God is sovereign. What does that mean? God created us. That means... God owns us. We are simply... property. The fact that God has chosen to see humanity as His children does not change this. As such, when it comes to our disposition, saved, unsaved, heaven bound, hell bound, etc. It is all contingent on the will of God. It has nothing to do with us. We can't choose, we can't do anything unless God acts, God wills. This is not the way to think of the world without any other thought. It is just the foundation, the ground floor. If your belief does not reflect this, it has no foundation. (Your belief has no foundation.) We are to build our foundation on Christ, not on ourselves/sand.

For the rest of us...we depend on the very scripture you mentioned:
1 John chapters 1 and 2.

If you don't understand that scripture, it doesn't help.

I have free will army.
I can fall into a life of sin...lose my salvation...and then REPENT AGAIN and get it back.

You should give Esau some tips. I mean, he was cursed from the day he was born. He sought the place of repentance diligently with tears, yet God refused him. Remember what John said in I John: " 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;" If you do what you say, you lie and do not practice the truth. That means you were never saved in the first place.

All I will say about the rest is, if you fear, you need to find God. Hebrews is not meant to be taken lightly, however, it is also said that it is written of a condition that does not exist today. I'm not sure how true that is, because I heard it a long time ago. It is like the unpardonable sin. The unpardonable sin was when Jesus was on Earth, standing before the religious leaders performing miracles (in this case, casting out demons), and while they can clearly see the work of the Holy Spirit in Christ right in front of them, they claimed it was the power of the devil, not the Holy Spirit. That was the unpardonable sin. That cannot happen today, because Jesus isn't here in that capacity anymore. However, some will say that the unpardonable sin has become dying in our sin. Basically rejecting the truth that the Holy Spirit presents to us being tantamount to blaspheming Him. One of the reasons is because once we die without Christ, we are done. There is no second change. So whatever our condition is when we die in our sin, it will not be forgiven, and Jesus is clear that only the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot and will not be forgiven.

We have no choice beyond what God enables. Jesus tells this to the disciples when they ask Him in response to what He says about the rich young ruler. Their question "Then who can be saved?" Why? It was the belief in that day and age that rich people who were prospered by God, blessed by God, are most loved by God and are at the front of the line to enter into heaven. No way they won't enter. Then Jesus says, not only won't the rich young ruler enter, it is impossible. Their immediate thought is, if that rich young ruler, so loved and blessed by God can't enter, who can? Jesus tells them that no one can enter. "With man, it is impossible". FULL STOP. There is nothing more for Jesus to say about man's ability, other than man has no ability. It is only if God intervenes, if God acts that man is saved. "but with God, all things are possible."

It all goes back to John 6. Only those God has given the Son will come to the Son, and only those will the Son not cast out. Given the testimony of scripture, that would be because only they are saved/justified. God will preserve them in their faith through sanctification.

 

[mailmandan]

The most important question to ask when it comes to eternal security (again I believe OSAS is a heresy) is, were they saved in the first place. Jesus saying He never knew them goes to show that whatever conversion they showed was false.

I actually prefer eternal security of the believer or preservation of the saints over the term OSAS. I do believe OSAS IF and this is a big IF -- IF we were truly saved to begin with. I believe in eternal security of the believer, but I don't believe in eternal presumption. If someone has a false conversion during an altar call for example, then goes through life living like the devil, but claiming they are OSAS simply because they recited a prayer during an altar call 20 years ago (but it was never followed by genuine repentance and faith) then that is heresy. Exploiting OSAS as a license for immorality is heresy.

In Hebrews, those who tasted of the life are those who were in the church, and by being in the church "tasted" of the blessings of God poured out on the church. They are not part of the church because they aren't saved but have tasted of the blessings that were poured on the church. The author of Hebrews is telling them to repent and be saved before it is too late. If the reject and walk away, then there is no place of repentance for them, for God will not sacrifice His son a second time. If Jesus sacrifice was not good enough for you, there is nothing else that can save you. Don't reject. Don't trample the Son of God underfoot. Believe and be saved.

Amen! In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. In Matthew 27:34, those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

Romans 8:30 probably does refer to the OT saints....haven't accepted this 100%.
But it's not calvinist anyway since everything about Calvinism is wrong...the TULIP part anyway.
No belief system gets everything wrong.

Romans 8:28-33~"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

Not probably, but refers to God's elect, past, present and future.

God’s purpose extends beyond foreknowledge and predestination to other spiritual blessings, a golden chain that can never be broken, so sure, that God speaks of it in the past tense just as he does in Ephesians 2:5,6 For each man that ends up glorified in heaven, it is because God predestinated him to it.

Ephesians 2:5,6​

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”

God’s operations are five – not mutually exclusive, exhaustive, or in order. For various orders, see John 1:12-13; 2nd Tim 1:9; Ist Pet 1:2; 2nd Pet 1:10; Jude 1:1; Rev 17:14.

Remember that all O.T. saints were called before legal justification, no matter what it is.

Foreknowledge is electing love; predestination determining purpose; calling appointment and regeneration; justification legal satisfaction; and glorification final condition.

God can use the past tense for all operations, since He is God (Rom 4:17; Acts 15:18) and his purposes cannot be defeated. All those God predestinated, He will also call, for there is no interruption to His final goal. God’s call is His appointment, ordination, and regeneration of sinners to be His sons.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

Studyman, do you believe what you just posted, so do I? Do not leave out Genesis. As Noah was leaving the Ark. God said this to him:

Genesis 9:3​

“Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.”

No Red, I didn't leave out Genesis. Therefore I can see that satan did the exact same thing to Eve, that you are doing to me. Shall I not consider these Words as well?

Gen. 3: 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of "every tree" of the garden?

And what do I find if I adopt your religious tradition of surfing the Scriptures to find a verse to justify the lusts of your flesh?

Gen. 2: 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of "every tree" of the garden thou mayest "freely eat":

Well there you go Red, the serpent simply followed God's Word just as you did, and just as you are now promoting to me and others.

Gen. 9:3 Every moving thing "that liveth" shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

So then, why did God punish the serpent Red? He quoted God "Word for Word", exactly like you just did to me above. Is God unjust, and incompetent that HE would punish the serpent for promoting HIS OWN Words, Word for Word in the exact same way you just did to me?

Why did HE punish Adam and Eve? It's right there in your own Bible, just like in Gen. 9:3. God Commanded them, " Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat". "Every moving thing "that liveth" shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things".

You do this in every post Red. And you have since the first time we met on these forums. It is the sole reason why I reply to your posts, so others can beware.

And why did you use satan's tactic on me? Isn't it to convince me that "thou shall surely not die" for rejecting a simple Commandment of God concerning what to eat and what not to eat? Are you not here to justify your rejection of God's Commandment, that you might justify the lusts of your flesh? How is this any different than Eve?

"And when Red saw that the pig was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and food to be desired to make one wise, he took of the pig thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto his children, grandchildren, brothers and sisters who looked up to him; and they also did eat.

So what would have happened Red, if you and Adam and Eve had followed the Teaching of the Lord's Christ Like all the Faithful examples of the Bible did?

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

You and Adam and Eve would have considered ALL of God's Word, Yes?

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

But you guys didn't listen to the Spirit of the Christ, instead you adopted the philosophies of satan, and Judged God, as Eve was convinced to do, as unworthy of your honor or respect concerning the some lusts of your flesh, and what happened to those in the examples God had written for us, who engaged in the same practice?

Mal. 2: Therefore have I also made you contemptible "and base before all the people", according as ye have "not kept my ways", but have been "partial in the law".

So no Red, I didn't leave Genesis out at all. In fact, I don't leave out even one verse in the entire bible. Like Paul, I believe all the Inspired Words of God, which HE said are written for my admonition. You peach the opposite, that God treats men differently according to the DNA they were born with.

If I listen to you, just as Eve listened to the "other voice" in the garden God placed her in, I wouldn't believe all that was written, I would only believe the verses satan promotes, that can be twisted to justify "the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

And it's not just about "what shall we eat, what shall we drink". This world's religious system rejects God's Sabbaths, and creates their own, they reject God's judgments, and create their own. They reject the "Feasts of the Lord", and create their own high days. These are simply undeniable truths in the the garden God placed me in.

Do these thing matter? They mattered enough for the Jesus "of the Bible" to risk His Life showing me, and was murdered for it.

Sadly, you will probably just continue in your perpetual self justification. Nevertheless, I truly wish you would consider ALL that is written, but you can't say someone didn't point these things out to you.

Ecc. 4:13 Better is a poor and a wise child than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished.

 

[GodsGrace]

If He never knew them, then He never had a relationship with them. Kind of speaks for itself. To have a relationship with them is to fellowship with them. They were never saved to begin with, for God would have preserved them in their faith, which, aren't they presenting [their faith] by name dropping? We did all these things in your name. "Depart from me." Jesus cast them out. Didn't Jesus say in John 6 that He would never cast out those who came to Him?

John 6
""37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

I'm not interjecting my own belief, it is the testimony of scripture, and in this case, the testimony of Jesus Himself. Consider that Judas was among those who came to Jesus. Judas was most certainly cast out. Why? Judas did not come to Christ in true belief. How can we be sure?
"70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, [k]was going to betray Him."

What did He say previously?
" 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would [j]betray Him."
The one's who did not believe were all but the 12 who remained, and Judas was the one that would betray Him. Judas did not all of a sudden become that person. He was cursed the day he was born.

Given John 6, it should be clear what Matthew 7 is talking about. They were never saved because God had not given them to Christ. If the Father had given them to Christ, then He would not have cast them out. You need to take the whole testimony of scripture.

That sure is a lot to say about something that Jesus explained.


Mathew 7:23
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

It's easy army.
Those such as yourself need to make this very difficult,,,for what reason I do not know.
Perhaps it's your fear of losing your salvation.
If you didn't FEAR it...you wouldn't have to dance around scripture.

Jesus told THOSE to depart from Him because they Practiced Lawlessness.

IOW,, they did not keep the laws of God.

Those who do not keep the laws of God....will not be recognized by Him at judgment time.

I shouldn't have to, but salvation by works is believing that good works save us. That somehow we can do enough good works to outweigh our sin, and thus be saved by works. By our own merit. The true believer is saved by grace through Christ's merit. Judaizers held a form of salvation by works by teaching that one finds salvation in keeping the Law.

The true believer is saved by obeying God.
Obedience has always been demanded by God.
Beginning in the Garden.
Adam disobeyed Him and we see the results.

I don't know what you mean by doing enough good works to outweigh our sins.
Sounds rather foolish so I won't reply to it.

We are told to do good works throughout the NT.
Do you think you're obeying God if you do NOT do good works?


Titus 2:14
14Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


Ephesians 2:10a
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,


James 2:26
26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.


Colossians 3:23-24
23 Whatever * you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than * for men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.


There are many more if you really need more.

To make Jesus Lord is to believe, be saved, and follow Christ only. We no longer live to ourselves or to sin. It speaks also to our sanctification, where we live to become more like Christ.

There are no boy scouts. No merit badges to get into heaven. To believe in good works in connection to salvation is to run contrary to what Paul taught in Galatians. It is to believe that the cross is not enough. We have to add to it with our good works.

So you're saying that the verses I posted above are not correct?
We don't HAVE TO obey God?

I brought him up only because he helped put Lordship Salvation on the map with his book "The Gospel According to Jesus". It was simply because Lordship salvation came up.

Please use scripture. Scripture says that He spoke in parables so they would not understand. That seeing they would not see, and hearing they would not hear, lest they believe, turn to God and He heal them. It was a judgment, and a mercy. The only ones who were to understand were the disciples, because the understanding had been entrusted to them.

OK.
So Jesus DID NOT want His audience to learn what He was teaching?
So the Sermon on the Mount was just Jesus wasting His breath?

There are reasons why Jesus spoke in parables.
You should do some studying and find out what they are.

Jesus spoke about following His words....
Strange thing to say if He didn't WANT us to know His words/teachings.

Also, if you believe Jesus meant the Apostles to understand..,.
then we should heed what they taught.
Obedience to God was uppermost in their mind.

But you don't understand what the parables are teaching. The Prodigal son is not speaking of one who is saved, loses their faith, and comes back. We are born in sin.

Army,,,I just post what Jesus said.
I don't write His script.

Here's what Jesus said AGAIN:

Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.


Could you read the above and explain to me what Jesus meant by the word AGAIN??

Some go on to live in heinous sin apart from God. Some stay close to God, but never actually accept and believe to salvation

A person could be CLOSE TO GOD...
and yet not be saved?
Do you have some scripture?
I've never heard of this.

They are represented by the elder son who was so evil.

Where does Luke state that the older son was evil in Luke 15?

The worst kind. The backstabber. The one who remains just to see you die, so they can take everything. They are in part represented by those so called believers who go ballistic if some gross sinner falls before God in true repentance and is saved. Responses as in there is no way God would save someone like you. I mean, look at who you are/were and what you do/did. To them, it is always who you are, and what you do, whereas, as Paul shows, with God it is who you were, and what you did. Paul speaks to previous sinners in the church saying, thanks be to God some of you were FORMERLY those things/those people, but no longer.

??

Yes, yes there is. Paul brings it up in Ephesians 1, which, strangely, Ephesus was made up of Jews and Gentiles.

That is exactly why we are saved. God foreordained us to the adoptions of children through Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Because of this, we are chosen to live the standard of His children, that is to be holy and unblemished. That is what that verse is saying. As His children, we are called to live as His children. Reflections of Him. That means, holy and unblemished.

So you're reformed?

Try James 2.
"18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith:
19 thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!

Is James actually saying they are doing well as in, they are saved? No. It's a good start. However, hell bound demons believe and they shudder. The strength of their believe is shown by them shuddering. Their belief is founded in actual knowledge. They KNOW God is one. They KNOW who God is. They KNOW who Jesus is. They don't bow in reverence to salvation. They shudder in fear of that truth. James is comparing those who say they believe God is one with the belief of demons. It isn't saying we believe, but we need to actually believe to salvation.

I guess then that we should bow in reverence.
And that would include obeying God.

John is rather forthright. I John 1 and 2 is intended for believers, and for those who weren't believers. Not to tell them they can do these things and be saved, but to shine the light on them to show them they aren't saved.

Right.
The gospel was written to shine the light on those who aren't saved.
OK.

In my belief, no one can lose their salvation ever. Why? It isn't theirs to lose. Salvation is of God. Justification is not man saying, I am now justified. It is God, declaring before the universe, such and such stands before Me justified. God justifies. Paul is clear. If God justifies, can you point your finger in the face of God and say "NO!!!" Can you tell God you are not justified? God is the final judge, and He is the justifier of our souls. If He says you are justified, you are justified, and there is nothing you can do about it. The idea that one can do something about it speaks to the shallowness of ones understanding. If you want to understand salvation, you have to understand who God is properly, and where you stand.

Who is God?
Does He want to be obeyed or not?
It all hinges on this.

Do you believe you could be justified and then go on to disobey God?

Even Apollos, one of the strongest defenders of God, was pulled aside by some simple church members, who, according to Luke took the time to teach him about God, properly.

Wow.
What if we are not properly taught!
Do we go straight to hell?
Maybe YOU are not being properly taught.

You have to understand the nature of God. We say God is sovereign. What does that mean? God created us. That means... God owns us. We are simply... property.

Nice. Like a piece of furniture.
God is sovereign means that God rules over all the universe.
It does NOT mean that He decreed every little thing that man does.
God gifted free will to you.

The fact that God has chosen to see humanity as His children does not change this. As such, when it comes to our disposition, saved, unsaved, heaven bound, hell bound, etc. It is all contingent on the will of God.

Then how do you know you're saved?

It has nothing to do with us. We can't choose, we can't do anything unless God acts, God wills. This is not the way to think of the world without any other thought. It is just the foundation, the ground floor. If your belief does not reflect this, it has no foundation. (Your belief has no foundation.) We are to build our foundation on Christ, not on ourselves/sand.

If you don't understand that scripture, it doesn't help.

Sounds to me like you don't understand the nature and character of God.
Sounds to me like you're being pulled in by Calvinism and you should try to escape before you're all the way in.

You should give Esau some tips. I mean, he was cursed from the day he was born. He sought the place of repentance diligently with tears, yet God refused him. Remember what John said in I John: " 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;" If you do what you say, you lie and do not practice the truth. That means you were never saved in the first place.

All I will say about the rest is, if you fear, you need to find God. Hebrews is not meant to be taken lightly, however, it is also said that it is written of a condition that does not exist today. I'm not sure how true that is, because I heard it a long time ago. It is like the unpardonable sin. The unpardonable sin was when Jesus was on Earth, standing before the religious leaders performing miracles (in this case, casting out demons), and while they can clearly see the work of the Holy Spirit in Christ right in front of them, they claimed it was the power of the devil, not the Holy Spirit. That was the unpardonable sin. That cannot happen today, because Jesus isn't here in that capacity anymore. However, some will say that the unpardonable sin has become dying in our sin. Basically rejecting the truth that the Holy Spirit presents to us being tantamount to blaspheming Him. One of the reasons is because once we die without Christ, we are done. There is no second change. So whatever our condition is when we die in our sin, it will not be forgiven, and Jesus is clear that only the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot and will not be forgiven.

We have no choice beyond what God enables. Jesus tells this to the disciples when they ask Him in response to what He says about the rich young ruler. Their question "Then who can be saved?" Why? It was the belief in that day and age that rich people who were prospered by God, blessed by God, are most loved by God and are at the front of the line to enter into heaven. No way they won't enter. Then Jesus says, not only won't the rich young ruler enter, it is impossible. Their immediate thought is, if that rich young ruler, so loved and blessed by God can't enter, who can? Jesus tells them that no one can enter. "With man, it is impossible". FULL STOP. There is nothing more for Jesus to say about man's ability, other than man has no ability. It is only if God intervenes, if God acts that man is saved. "but with God, all things are possible."

It all goes back to John 6. Only those God has given the Son will come to the Son, and only those will the Son not cast out. Given the testimony of scripture, that would be because only they are saved/justified. God will preserve them in their faith through sanctification.

I have nothing further to state.
You sound like a new Christian that is being misled by a heretical belief system.
I pray you find the true God and learn to obey Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace


Not probably, but refers to God's elect, past, present and future.

God’s purpose extends beyond foreknowledge and predestination to other spiritual blessings, a golden chain that can never be broken, so sure, that God speaks of it in the past tense just as he does in Ephesians 2:5,6 For each man that ends up glorified in heaven, it is because God predestinated him to it.

Ephesians 2:5,6​

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”

God’s operations are five – not mutually exclusive, exhaustive, or in order. For various orders, see John 1:12-13; 2nd Tim 1:9; Ist Pet 1:2; 2nd Pet 1:10; Jude 1:1; Rev 17:14.

Remember that all O.T. saints were called before legal justification, no matter what it is.

Foreknowledge is electing love; predestination determining purpose; calling appointment and regeneration; justification legal satisfaction; and glorification final condition.

God can use the past tense for all operations, since He is God (Rom 4:17; Acts 15:18) and his purposes cannot be defeated. All those God predestinated, He will also call, for there is no interruption to His final goal. God’s call is His appointment, ordination, and regeneration of sinners to be His sons.

HOW do we get elected RB?

 

[MTMattie]

All I will say about the rest is, if you fear, you need to find God.

We have no choice beyond what God enables.

We have no choice and God chooses.

That is enough to strike fear .

 

[JLB]

The law of Moses as contained and summed up in the Ten Commandments

Sorry bro, the law of Moses contains 613 commandments.

If you believe you must keep them then I would suggest you sharpen your knives and move to Israel.

 

[Studyman]

No Red, I didn't leave out Genesis. Therefore I can see that satan did the exact same thing to Eve, that you are doing to me. Shall I not consider these Words as well?

Gen. 3: 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of "every tree" of the garden?

And what do I find if I adopt your religious tradition of surfing the Scriptures to find a verse to justify the lusts of your flesh?

Gen. 2: 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of "every tree" of the garden thou mayest "freely eat":

Well there you go Red, the serpent simply followed God's Word just as you did, and just as you are now promoting to me and others.

Gen. 9:3 Every moving thing "that liveth" shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

So then, why did God punish the serpent Red? He quoted God "Word for Word", exactly like you just did to me above. Is God unjust, and incompetent that HE would punish the serpent for promoting HIS OWN Words, Word for Word in the exact same way you just did to me?

Why did HE punish Adam and Eve? It's right there in your own Bible, just like in Gen. 9:3. God Commanded them, " Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat". "Every moving thing "that liveth" shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things".

You do this in every post Red. And you have since the first time we met on these forums. It is the sole reason why I reply to your posts, so others can beware.

And why did you use satan's tactic on me? Isn't it to convince me that "thou shall surely not die" for rejecting a simple Commandment of God concerning what to eat and what not to eat? Are you not here to justify your rejection of God's Commandment, that you might justify the lusts of your flesh? How is this any different than Eve?

"And when Red saw that the pig was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and food to be desired to make one wise, he took of the pig thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto his children, grandchildren, brothers and sisters who looked up to him; and they also did eat.

So what would have happened Red, if you and Adam and Eve had followed the Teaching of the Lord's Christ Like all the Faithful examples of the Bible did?

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

You and Adam and Eve would have considered ALL of God's Word, Yes?

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

But you guys didn't listen to the Spirit of the Christ, instead you adopted the philosophies of satan, and Judged God, as Eve was convinced to do, as unworthy of your honor or respect concerning the some lusts of your flesh, and what happened to those in the examples God had written for us, who engaged in the same practice?

Mal. 2: Therefore have I also made you contemptible "and base before all the people", according as ye have "not kept my ways", but have been "partial in the law".

So no Red, I didn't leave Genesis out at all. In fact, I don't leave out even one verse in the entire bible. Like Paul, I believe all the Inspired Words of God, which HE said are written for my admonition. You peach the opposite, that God treats men differently according to the DNA they were born with.

If I listen to you, just as Eve listened to the "other voice" in the garden God placed her in, I wouldn't believe all that was written, I would only believe the verses satan promotes, that can be twisted to justify "the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

And it's not just about "what shall we eat, what shall we drink". This world's religious system rejects God's Sabbaths, and creates their own, they reject God's judgments, and create their own. They reject the "Feasts of the Lord", and create their own high days. These are simply undeniable truths in the the garden God placed me in.

Do these thing matter? They mattered enough for the Jesus "of the Bible" to risk His Life showing me, and was murdered for it.

Sadly, you will probably just continue in your perpetual self justification. Nevertheless, I truly wish you would consider ALL that is written, but you can't say someone didn't point these things out to you.

Ecc. 4:13 Better is a poor and a wise child than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished.

Now @Red Baker

I want you to understand that I don't believe you wake up every morning and say, "Today I'm going to turn people away from God's Judgments and Sabbaths", any more than I believe Paul, as a Pharisees woke up and said "Today I'm going to persecute the Church of God", and "transgress the Commandments of God by my own traditions", or "today, I'm going to adopt satan as my father, and serve him". He did this things no doubt, but he was deceived because he listened to the "other voice" in the garden God placed him in. He and Jesus and the Prophets warned the inhabitants of the earth over and over and over, not to partake of this world's religious system, and some believed them, and repented. But others were to stubborn, filled with pride and uncircumcised of the heart to receive correction or instruction in righteousness from God.

By its very definition "deceived" means to "Believe" something that isn't true. Paul, as a Pharisee, like the Priests and scribes, was Zealous for God, just not according to knowledge. They were deceived, and God tells us why so that we might cast away our transgressions, and be renewed in the spirit of our mind.

It is a tradition of this world's religious system, to do what the serpent did to Eve, and what you are doing to me. We are taught this from our youth by the religions of this world, to cherry pick Scriptures, to reject Scriptures, to judge scriptures, some as worthy of our honor and respect, and some as unworthy of our honor and respect, and this to justify our adopted religious sect, and the judgments promoted therein.

Imagine all the scores of people who were led astray by the self professing Christians in Matt. 7:22, who were convinced they were saved by the same religious system that surrounds you and men now.. Our actions and words are live a pebble dropped in a lake. A ripple is caused that continues in all direction and influences everything on this lake as it continues long after we leave. This Gospel of the Christ "of the Bible" is serous, it was a "way of life" for the examples of those who submitted to it, written for us.

Therefore we are told to "Be diligent", "To Labor", "Press towards perfection", "to beware".

My hope is others might take God's Word as seriously as Jesus and Paul did.

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie

We have no choice and God chooses.

That is enough to strike fear .

Nora, that's a very statement ~ not to mention unscriptural.

First, you and I had a perfect choice IN ADAM by being in him as his posterity ~ Adam being the head and representative of his people that came from him.

Secondly, If God did not elect us according to the good pleasure of his will, then none would, or could have came by their own depraved nature that is at enmity against the God of heaven and earth.

1st Peter 1:2​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

What did God foresee? He saw that NONE would, or could come unto Him, apart from his mighty power, which power is the same power that resurrected Christ from the dead.

Ephesians 1:19,20​

“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

HOW do we get elected RB?

Ephesians 1:3-5​

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”

Deuteronomy 7:6​

“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

So, the answer is: "according to the good pleasure of his will,”.