Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[JLB]

of the law of the Spirit of grace

Where did I mention the law of grace?


Here is my entire post.


Under the law of Moses means under obligation to obey the law of Moses.

Under grace means we are now no longer under obligation to obey the law of Moses but we are now under obligation to obey grace; The Spirit of grace.


Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29


We are now under obligation to obey the Spirit of God.

To be led by the Spirit of God.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14


But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18



We are to obey the law of Christ.


Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

 

[ProDeo]

Well,

It would be good to understand what it means "Not" to be under God's Law, Yes? But not according to the "other voice" in the garden God placed us in. Rather, according to the Spirit of Christ that Inspired these Words. I don't know you, so I don't know if you are interested in discussing what the scriptures actually say, or if you are just here to promote one of "many" religious philosophies of this world's religious system that we are born into, like Red is.

I don't know you either, is that an excuse to doubt your intentions? I think not.

Is my simple question to you an excuse to accuse another member?

and "Live By" the words of preachers like Red, in the same way the Jews of Paul's Time and before "lived by" the teaching of other voices like Gamaliel and corrupt priests.

Matt 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’
Matt 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

But consider if you will, what you were able to find out concerning the question you asked, by simply following, Not my instruction, not Red's instruction.

And there you go again.

but be Listening to the Jesus "of the Bible" and becoming a "Doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only. By following the Christ's instruction, you were able to discern the difference between eating a cow, and eating a pig.

I read that the Lord said to Peter, kill and eat.

Acts 10:13 And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.”
Acts 10:15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.”

What do you say?

Imagine your relationship with God if you Trusted the Jesus "of the Bible", and not this world's preachers "who come in Christ's Name" in all of your life's choices?

And another accusation to conclude.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

What you are describing "IS Babylon".

Please explain what is Mystery Babylon, according to the prophets and Jesus, Paul, and John.

Does it just have one meaning, or is it two fold; or one with TWO PARTS?

 

[Kevin]

The world's conception of "rude" is not love.

Jesus was "rude" to the secular world, because he challenged people and told them hard truths.

There is nothing "rude" about challenging people to examine themselves, this is Scriptural.

I examine myself daily and test whether I am in the faith.



That's not necessarily true. I've been banned for doing nothing more than preaching Scripture on Christian forums.

We must not be naive.

When people think that merely testing yourself to see if you are in the faith is "rude," they may be a cultural Christian.

“Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.”

‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭19‬:‭17‬ ‭KJV‬‬



This makes no sense.

You are trying to do theology without the Holy Spirit?

That's where all the problems come from...

That's so rude Dude. You know what's funny? When people get banned from these online forums it's never their fault.

Persecution complex​

A persecution complex is the belief that one is being oppressed or targeted by others, often without substantial evidence to support this belief. This feeling can be irrational and is sometimes associated with delusional thoughts and behaviors, often linked to paranoid personality disorders.

That's where all the problems come from...okey-dokey

 

[Red Baker]

@JLB

Where did I mention the law of grace?

No where and neither did I.

please give me the definition of the law of the Spirit of grace

If we must obey then it is a law ~ I never just said the law of grace, I said what you said: the Spirit of grace.

But, no problem then tell me the difference between Moses' moral law and the law of Christ. I have dealt with this many years ago more than once.

We are to obey the law of Christ.


Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

Is there a difference between the two, if yes, then explain the difference. I would love to hear what you have to say. I may have to step out, but I'll be back and will answer any post to me. Thank you for your time.

 

[Dizerner]

That's so rude Dude. You know what's funny? When people get banned from these online forums it's never their fault.

That's where all the problems come from...okey-dokey

Look, even though unjust mistreatment hurts, I do rejoice in heavenly rewards.

But your naive and cruel view that there never is any abuse of power is just bizarre and certainly unbiblical.

Victim blaming - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[synergy]

@synergy

Sorry for the delay on posting this which I promised to do.

James 2:14​

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”

The question is rhetorical, which we can and should easily answer ~ Such faith has no profit! It cannot save! From the wrath of God. James, an apostle of Jesus Christ, has no use for those professing faith but living fruitless lives. As the followers of Jesus Christ, we should as dogmatically deny the salvation of those without works.

In what sense does faith save as taught by James, one of the pillars of the church in Jerusalem? It only saves by laying hold of eternal life for evidence of coming salvation. Let us be very clear on this point.

God's election of grace is not based on faith, for God chose us in Christ without faith (Psalm 14:1-3; Ephesians 1:3-12).

Legal justification needs no faith, for God justified freely by Christ (Romans 5:15-19; 8:28-34; Titus 3:4-7).

Regeneration is not based on faith, for the new birth must come first (John 1:13; 3:3,6,8; 5:24). Conversion definitely requires faith, for it is our belief of the gospel of God’s gracious salvation.

Glorification can only be known and trusted to the degree that a child of God brings forth works.

We believe on Christ, not to be justified or regenerated, but to lay hold of coming salvation. James did not write a theoretical lesson for their evangelistic program, but concerning their own conduct!

Actual, legal, literal, or vital salvation is not pursued here, or you end up being saved by works! The point pursued is the "evidence of" eternal life resulting in future salvation ~ faith plus works. The word of God teaches: Faith provides evidence of eternal life "only" when it bears good works (2nd Peter 1:5-11; Ist Thessalonians 1:2-4). It is not that difficult to follow James when we consider ALL scriptures as a cohesive whole.


What justification is considered here? Our legal position before God, or our knowledge of it? Our legal position before God, or His declaration of it? Our legal position, or our assurance of it? It should be clear to any who preaches the doctrine of pure grace. These rhetorical questions indicate that this concept of justification by works should be easy to see. Faith leads to works to please God, for faith believes God rewards diligent seekers (Hebrews 11:6). The faith of Abraham in Genesis 15:6 was made complete and true by his works in Genesis 22:12. Faith is dead and devilish without works; but it is complete or perfect by works, as with Abraham.

We must remember Abraham was a just and righteous man, living by faith, long before he got to Gen 15:6. It is one of the travesties of Bible interpretation to hear that Abraham was justified in 15:6 in any other way that God declaring his faith in an impossible promise as evidence of his righteousness.

What can we see from Abraham’s history? The real evidence proving righteousness requires works. What we see is that Genesis 15:6 is only part of the picture. It is incomplete without Gen 22:12!

Those who cry, “Sola Fide,” and think that Genesis 15:6 is the end of justification are wrong. Abraham’s subjective justification by faith was made complete or perfect by his further works.

Justification is being declared righteous by God: Abraham was declared so by faith and works.

It is vain confidence to trust in some belief, decision, or profession of Jesus without good works.

Abraham’s legal justification, or acceptance and acquittal with God, was without faith by Christ! James did not teach justification by the works that Paul condemned, or the Bible lies and that's impossible.

The sum of this is: Paul rejected Jewish legalists and their trust in Moses’ law by teaching the historical fact of God’s declaration of Abraham’s righteousness by virtue of his great act of faith (Genesis 15:6). James taught that any man’s faith without works was not nearly enough evidence or proof to claim righteousness, justification, or the hope of future glorification.

Basically you spun off an entirely new justification that is based on evidence, people's knowledge, and showmanship. That makes man the source of that justification. It makes man the witness, the knower, and the showman of that justification. That justification won't fly because only God is the source of our justification, not man. Plain and simple.

 

[Kevin]

Look, even though unjust mistreatment hurts, I do rejoice in heavenly rewards.

But your naive and cruel view that there never is any abuse of power is just bizarre and certainly unbiblical.

Victim blaming - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Jay]

Thank you for proving my point.

I see your point, pretty obvious.

 

[MTMattie]

@MT



Nora, why do not not just listen to James, he will reveal one of many ACTS LOVE we can do to others.

James 2:15​

“If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,”

Nora, we start first with those of our own household, then to our brethren and sisters and then to anyone God brings into our path. In order:

1stTimothy 5:8

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he Hath denied the faith,, and is worse than an infidel."

Galatians 6:10​

“As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”

Fine.... I have been guilty of these. I have done these. I just never would call them works because they are the right thing to do.

 

[JLB]

I never just said the law of grace

please give me the definition of the law of the Spirit of grace

 

[JLB]

If we must obey then it is a law

Yes the law of Christ.


Not the law of Moses.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

Since you mentioned me by name a few times in this post, I'm going to post an answer your confused post, and confused it is.

Studyman, as I have said a few times over, get you away from the small circle of scriptures you live in, will expose more of your error.

You know this a lie, and yet you still tell it.

It would indeed be good to know what it means to not be under the law, and what it means to live by God's Royal law. You have absolutely no glue. and I do not believe you are a lone wolf in this respect.

Obviously space and time will not permit us to go into depth on this subject that would take a few posts, but we can sum it up in a few words I think and still be helpful to our readers.

There are many laws/commandments we are still under as NT believers that we are forever under obligation to live by.

1) The law of love:

James 2:8​

“If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:” The law of Love is ever blinding on us to live by

Again, as is your custom, you show partially in Scriptures in your effort to promote your adopted religion. Here, let us once again post more than just One verse, so as to understand the message the Spirit of Christ is teaching through James.

James 2: 8 If ye fulfil the royal law "according to the scripture", Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,(Lev. 19) ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole (Royal) law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, (Part of the Royal Law, Ex. 20) said also, Do not kill.(Also part of the Royal Law) Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become "a transgressor" of the (Royal) law.

So then, the Royal Law can be found in Ex. 20, and Lev. 19, according to the Spirit of Christ in James.

And if I live in honor and submission to God in some of His "Royal Law", found in Lev. 19 and Ex. 20, but I live in rejection and disrespect for God in other parts of His Royal Law, I am judged as a sinner. Clearly the Spirit of Christ is teaching this truth through James.

And the SAME God, in the SAME "Royal Law", in the Same Chapter, of the Same God inspired Word, says "Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, "and do them": I am the LORD.

Where does a man go to find this part of God's Royal Law?

What spirit would drive a man to judge Gods Words, some as worthy of his respect, and others as unworthy of his respect, like you do Red?

Studyman, you truly have never answer the gentleman's question, so from you he has not learn one thing, other than he should not eat pork as you teach. Are you are doing is what Christ said of the Pharisees:

Why would he listen to any other man? Why would I want him to listen to me, who am I? You're the one exalting himself as some holy minister of righteousness. Not me.

I have advised him, exactly the same as the Jesus "of the Bible" advised me, to SEEK God through the Word of God. It's right there in my post. Jesus already told him whose Words to Live by. He has already found, by following the Christs instruction, God's Judgment concerning the difference between a pig and a cow. He asked me that question, and I directed him to Jesus who told him whom to SEEK, for the answers he requested to be added unto him. And just as Jesus promised, when ProDeo followed the Christ's instruction, it was Added to him.

I don't want him learning anything from a nobody like me. I want him and everyone to be "learned of the Father". Where in my post did I tell ProDeo what to think, or what to do. Stop promoting so many lies Red. It is GOD who "Teaches" His People not to eat pig or drink blood, not me. I just believe Him. It is you who preaches to others to eat pig but not blood.. I have said let each person work these things out with fear and trembling. And that too, is God's instruction, not mine. The only reason I reply to your posts, is to expose how you twist scriptures, and are partial in the law, to justify your fleshy lusts.

Now Jesus told me you would not be persuaded to listen to Him, given it was His Spirit who Inspired Moses in the first place.

Luke 16: 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Clearly Jesus saw you coming, and I am forever grateful for that.

 

[JLB]

Is there a difference between the two, if yes, then explain the difference. I would love to hear what you have to say. I may have to step out, but I'll be back and will answer any post to me. Thank you for your time.

By saying the difference between the two, I take it to mean the difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ.


Under the law of Moses, Moses was the mediator so it was called the law of Moses.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19


Under the New Covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator so it’s called the law of Christ.

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5



Under the law of Moses the commandments were written in stone.
Under the New Covenant the commandments are written on our heart.



Under the law of Moses the Levitical Priesthood taught the children of Israel.
Under the New Covenant we are taught from within by the Lord Himself.


Under the law of Moses physical circumcision was required.
Under the New Covenant our heart is circumcised by the Spirit.


Under the law of Moses the Levitical Priesthood furnished a high priest each year.
Under the New Covenant The Priesthood is eternal and is the order of Melchizedek.


Under the law of Moses animal sacrifices were required for the atonement of sin.
Under the New Covenant our sins are not atoned for but washed away by the one final sacrifice of Jesus Christ the Son of God.


Under the law of Moses there were dietary laws.
Under the New Covenant all foods are clean.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

Please explain what is Mystery Babylon, according to the prophets and Jesus, Paul, and John.

Does it just have one meaning, or is it two fold; or one with TWO PARTS?

Babylon, or "Babel" is derived from the Hebrew "balal" meaning "to confuse" or "to mix.".

I'll give my Spiritual understanding of the word, as it won't matter anyway, given your mission here.

The "Story of Babel", is a parable regarding the religious sects of this world becoming one to create their own "way" to eternal life". And God, seeing that if all this world's religious sects became one voice, it would be very bad for the people who actually believed in Him. So HE "Confused them", gave them up to their own lusts which differ from one religious sect to another. And he scattered them across the entire earth. We see them now and literally thousands of religious sects, businesses, all promoting a different philosophy, and seeing and believing something, squabbling between themselves for centuries and centuries, competing with each other for contributing members, without which their 501C3 could not exist. While the remnant of the Faithful were all of one accord, from Abel and Caleb, to Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the wise men, to Paul and Cornelius. In the Exodus, Israel was to pass through all these different religions (nations) to test them to see if they would walk in God's Law or not. In my understanding, it was the same thing God did to Adam and Eve, when HE brought them into a world with "Another voice" existed, that also professed to know God. For me, all these nations/religions are symbolically called Babylon. The World has adopted her images of God in the likeness of man, dozens of them, and have waxed rich promoting her high days and her sabbaths, which have generated untold wealth and power to many, while Zion is despised, rejected and left in shambles.

Through out the Exodus and the journey of the Children "Babylon" was used to test Israel, punish Israel, and at one point Jeremiah and the Faithful were captured by Babylon and told not to resist, or be killed.

Paul said these stories were all written for our Examples, that we would lust after disobedience like they lusted. These were written for our admonition upon whom the end of the world is come. Paul said:

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore "let him that thinketh" he standeth take heed lest he fall.

But no one believes this is for them.

Instead, what do all the religions of this world preach, "even the topic of this thread".

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one "that walketh after the imagination of his own heart", No evil shall come upon you.

For me, this represents the great religions of this world, Placed there by God to test the faith those who would "Yield themselves" to Him, even when the whole world rejects Him. Read Jer. 14 sometime.

17 Therefore thou shalt say this word unto them; Let mine eyes run down with tears night and day, and let them not cease: for the virgin daughter of my people is broken with a great breach, with a very grievous blow. 18 If I go forth into the field, then behold the slain with the sword! and if I enter into the city, then behold them that are sick with famine! yea, both the prophet and the priest go about into a land that they know not. 19 Hast thou utterly rejected Judah? hath thy soul lothed Zion? why hast thou smitten us, and there is no healing for us? we looked for peace, and there is no good; and for the time of healing, and behold trouble! 20 We acknowledge, O LORD, our wickedness, and the iniquity of our fathers: for we have sinned against thee. 21 Do not abhor us, for thy name's sake, do not disgrace the throne of thy glory: remember, break not thy covenant with us.

But no one believes any of this. It's always for "That other guy", never for us.

For the world, Babylon is that great smorgasbord of religions, that "Prophesy in Christ's Name, cast's our demons in Christ's Name, feed random poor people, and create massive religious businesses with religious schools and hospitals and on and on, all in Christ's Name. They all have their Alms before men, great missions generating massive amounts of wealth for a few. And they all pat themselves on the back and show each other pictures of starving Haitian children they fed, when the truth is, if even 1/2 of the money collected since 1925, actually went to Haiti's people, every man woman and child would be millionaires and own 300 bibles..

While God's Laws are rendered as Beggarly Elements, Rudiments of this world, and the Feasts of the Lord and mocked and forgotten, and God's Judgments rejected as foolish and worthless "Jewish Traditions".

But not for Paul or David or James or Zacharias or Cornelius or the Church of God in the NT.

For them "Babylon has fallen". The scales fell off of his eyes to see the truth about the religious system of the world they were placed in.

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

David in Ps. 5 and 14 that Paul quoted in Romans 3 understood this. Read what David said and understand for yourself.

10 As it is written, (About the workers of iniquity) There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth "are waxed rich" through "the abundance" of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

This is why, in my understanding, Jesus was so hard and judgmental towards the promoters of the religious system of the world in His Time, but was so compassionate and patient with those who had been snared by them.

Nevertheless, the Pharisees couldn't accept this, because their business would fall if they were to actually follow the Instructions of Jesus. And the same is true for today, in my view. This is why I advocate that men read what is actually written, apart from the influences, as much as is possible, of the popular religious philosophies of this world God placed us in.

Jesus was killed for promoting the same thing.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

You know this a lie, and yet you still tell it.

I'm only going by what you post ~ you for the most part stay with just a few subjects, and I have never seen you venture away from them. hardly at all. Studyman, occasionally you will make mention of certain topics in passing, but never much more than that. Like this week, you mentioned Babylon, but that's as far as I have seen you go. You did make mentioned of the first resurrection begin the beginning of a thousand years reign, which is far from the truth, yet I said not a word since the thread was already going in a different direction than its topic. I would love to discuss these doctrines with you in the proper thread. Let us see if what I'm saying is a lie. If you get into some of these other doctrine, I can show you just how much of this world's rellgion you are right in the middle of. I'm ready, whenever you are ready.

Again, as is your custom, you show partially in Scriptures in your effort to promote your adopted religion. Here, let us once again post more than just One verse, so as to understand the message the Spirit of Christ is teaching through James.

James 2: 8 If ye fulfil the royal law "according to the scripture", Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,(Lev. 19) ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole (Royal) law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, (Part of the Royal Law, Ex. 20) said also, Do not kill.(Also part of the Royal Law) Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become "a transgressor" of the (Royal) law.

So then, the Royal Law can be found in Ex. 20, and Lev. 19, according to the Spirit of Christ in James.

Studyman, God's law, yes Royal, since there could never be a law as righteous as God's law, summed up in the Ten commandments, yet they are exceeding broad.... proven by Leviticus 19 and hundreds of other scriptures.

Psalms 119:96​

“I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.”

But, we must rightly divided God's word to know which laws were given to Israel, and only Israel, and only until Christ, here is were we separate, and differ.

So then, the Royal Law can be found in Ex. 20, and Lev. 19, according to the Spirit of Christ in James.

Yes, yet some of that which is written in Leviticus 19 cannot be applicable for us today, much can.

What spirit would drive a man to judge Gods Words, some as worthy of his respect, and others as unworthy of his respect, like you do Red?

Again, we must rightly divide the word of God, laws that governed Israel, and only Israel cannot be put on the neck of NT saints, and there are many of such laws ~even in Leviticus 19 that you quoted.

Now Jesus told me you would not be persuaded to listen to Him, given it was His Spirit who Inspired Moses in the first place.

Luke 16: 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Clearly Jesus saw you coming, and I am forever grateful for that.

Actually, I'm following Christ under the New Covenant, and guess what, Moses was faithful over his house, yet I do not belong to Moses, but Christ, if I hold fast my profession firm until the end, then I shall be proven to be among the very elect in that day.

Hebrews 3:1-6~"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. They lived lives full of extreme fear/risk/doubts and rapturous highs.

Everyone was seeing how many of their colleagues were being put to death and wondering if this Christianity was even worth it. That's where Paul's encouragement of OT Saints having received their heavenly glorification comes from in Rom 8:30. It has nothing to do with the calvinism heresy

Romans 8:30: "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Some of their stunning highs is their witnessing of the blazing Transfiguration and Paul's indescribable encounter with Heaven itself in one of his Epistles.

Romans 8:30 probably does refer to the OT saints....haven't accepted this 100%.
But it's not calvinist anyway since everything about Calvinism is wrong...the TULIP part anyway.
No belief system gets everything wrong.

Romans 8:30 does speak about glorification as if it has already happened.
What has convinced you?

 

[GodsGrace]

The world's conception of "rude" is not love.

Jesus was "rude" to the secular world, because he challenged people and told them hard truths.

Dizerner,,,,you're not Jesus.
I've heard this before and, let me tell you, it doesn't work very well when WE try to do what Jesus did.
Jesus had authority,,,we do NOT have the authority to treat others badly.
After which, BTW, they will NEVER listen to you anymore.

You can tell persons hard truths and still treat them with respect and try to be nice.
Sometimes we fail...but at least that should be our goal.

There is nothing "rude" about challenging people to examine themselves, this is Scriptural.

It's not up to YOU to tell ME I have to examine myself.
Personal comments are usually a very bad idea on Forums.

I examine myself daily and test whether I am in the faith.

That's good.
Are you one of those persons that feel they could lose their salvation at any moment?
Do we go from one extreme to the other on these Forums?

That's not necessarily true. I've been banned for doing nothing more than preaching Scripture on Christian forums.

We must not be naive.

When people think that merely testing yourself to see if you are in the faith is "rude," they may be a cultural Christian.

“Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.”

‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭19‬:‭17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Leviticus. Right. I don't think that'll work in our society/culture.

This makes no sense.

You are trying to do theology without the Holy Spirit?

This is what I mean.
How do YOU KNOW I'm doing theology without the Holy Spirit?

You accused both myself and another member of not being Christian.
This is frowned upon on these forums and may be the reason you got banned.
It's not up to YOU to know who is saved and who is not.
You can judge someone's BEHAVIOR,,,
but you cannot judge their SOUL.
That's up to God and God ALONE.

That's where all the problems come from...

I'm ignoring this comment.

 

[synergy]

Romans 8:30 probably does refer to the OT saints....haven't accepted this 100%.
But it's not calvinist anyway since everything about Calvinism is wrong...the TULIP part anyway.
No belief system gets everything wrong.

Romans 8:30 does speak about glorification as if it has already happened.
What has convinced you?

I read about it when I was searching for a explanation of Rom 8:30. At that time I only had a calvinist explanation. I don't remember where I read it. But you guessed correctly what convinced me that it was the OT Saints that Paul was talking about. It was the past tense of the word glorified. Only OT Saints could be logically deemed as having been glorified at that time.

 

[GodsGrace]

I read about it when I was searching for a explanation of Rom 8:30. At that time I only had a calvinist explanation. I don't remember where I read it. But you guessed correctly what convinced me that it was the OT Saints that Paul was talking about. It was the past tense of the word glorified. Only OT Saints could be logically deemed as having been glorified at that time.

Will look into it some more.
It does make sense.