Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[synergy]

@synergy

Really, then how do you beleive in Christ's redemption serves us in our day? Your scriptural understanding is seriously lacking.

Romans 5:12
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” In Adam! If I need to, I can come back and go into this scripture in depth.

1st Corinthians 15:22​

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

It's your imagination flaring when you imagine that you had a choice in Adam 1000's of years before you were ever born. Talk about one's imagination going wild.

What happened is that death entered our world through Adam and as a consequence of that we all inherit death in our nature. Simple as that. No need to go off into wild imaginary scenarios trying to justify whatever is "seriously lacking" in "your scriptural understanding".

Let us see exactly what Peter was saying, not even close to what you desire others to believe because of your hatred for the doctrine of free grace through Jesus Christ's redemption work for God's elect.

1st Peter 1:2,3​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

Let me ask you this question: How does these two scriptures support your false statement, wherein you said: "who wonderfully accomplished their election task of spreading the Gospel" That phrase of yours is not even in the context of 1st Peter 1:2,3....you are adding it to the scriptures, hoping others would not consider what you are saying in order to continue holding on to a gospel that is not taught in the word of God, but from the hearts of men who reject God's free Grace over their works.

What in the world are you talking about asking a question like that from what I said:

In typical fashion, you only see what you want to see in 1 Peter 1. Peter is talking to the Jewish Diaspora Elect.

(1 Pet 1:1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the Pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

What was their Election Task? It was to
proclaim his praises which is to spread the Gospel among many other things:

(1Pet 2:9) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

What type of Christian are you if you don't proclaim his praises and by doing so you spread the Gospel?

Pitiful indeed! Those who believe are those that God show forth his mighty power to by resurrecting them from being dead in trespasses and sin, to life in Jesus Christ. When folks are on their heels backing up, then we get such unscriptural responses such as yours.

Pitiful indeed that you can't see that it's those who believe that are raised from the dead by God's mighty power. That fact is mentioned over and over again in the Bible and you keep refusing to believe it.

(Eph 1:19,20) “And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”

 

[synergy]

@synergy

Not even close, unless one gives a proper sense concerning 1st Timothy 2:3,4 which you have no clue as to what Paul meant by his words that he has written for our consideration.

I do believe that the gospel is no longer confined to the Jewish nation as it was before Christ, it is now to all the world, Jews and Gentiles and that all types of folks. So, in this sense, maybe I'm an Universalist, but only in this sense.

We agree with John Gill who wrote, read and learn:

Gill agrees with me in that it's a "real, certain, and actual salvation" that we're talking about here.

Since it's God's will is that we are all really and actually saved then your clueless presuppositions make you a Universalist.

(2 Tim 2:3-4) This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

@synergy

Really, then how do you beleive in Christ's redemption serves us in our day? Your scriptural understanding is seriously lacking.

Romans 5:12
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” In Adam! If I need to, I can come back and go into this scripture in depth.

1st Corinthians 15:22​

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

What are you claiming RB?
Are you saying that we are all responsible for Adam's sin?
If so,,,then why don't your fellow Calvinist believers agree with this?
@Selah, @brightfame52, @atpollard have all stated that the "elect" have ALWAYS been children of God.
Do you not agree?

We are not repsonsible for Adam's sin.
Each man is responsible for his own sin according to both the OT and the NT.


Romans 5:12 states that sin came into the world and now all have sinned ...
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—


We are responsible ONLY for our own sins:

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


Romans 14:12
12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.


Jeremiah 31:30
30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.


1 Peter 1:17
17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Let us see exactly what Peter was saying, not even close to what you desire others to believe because of your hatred for the doctrine of free grace through Jesus Christ's redemption work for God's elect.

Actually RB,,,there's no such concept as the doctrine of grace....
it's a term made up by MEN....
there is very little grace in the god they have invented....
The reformed/calvinist I mean.

1st Peter 1:2,3​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

What a great verse RB!
Thanks for posting it.

Your verse:

1 Peter 1:2-3
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"


What does it teach:

1. We are elect (part of the saved) according to the FORKNOWLEDGE of God.
NOT predestination. verse 2

2. Through SANCTIFICATION....NOT predestination to salvation. verse 2

3. Through OBEDIENCE.....NOT predestination to salvation. verse 2

4. This is accomplished throught the sacrifice of Jesus....His blood. verse 3

5. God's mercy is His plan for our redemption through the resurrection of Jesus. verse 3


So simple to understand scripture when it's accepted as it is plainly stated.
Paul was very good at communicating what he meant.

Let me ask you this question: How does these two scriptures support your false statement, wherein you said: "who wonderfully accomplished their election task of spreading the Gospel" That phrase of yours is not even in the context of 1st Peter 1:2,3....you are adding it to the scriptures, hoping others would not consider what you are saying in order to continue holding on to a gospel that is not taught in the word of God, but from the hearts of men who reject God's free Grace over their works.

Actually RB....
Jesus did make an appearance here on earth for 2 reasons:

1. To atone for the sins of man.

2. To establish the Kingdom of God here on earth.


The NT is replete with teachings of the above.

John 3:16 would attest to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus...as would also
1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.


As to the establishing of the Kingdom:
too many verses:
Matthew 5...the beatitudes would be some....
All teachings of Jesus about THE KINGDOM --- and there are many, as I'm sure you're aware.


You accuse @synergy of adding to scripture because he mentioned other verses.
This is most interesting, since YOU, in all your posts to me, have been all over different verses in the NT and OT trying to disprove my statements.
What is good for YOU RB,,,,you must also accepted from others when they're trying to make a valid point.

What in the world are you talking about asking a question like that from what I said:

Pitiful indeed! Those who believe are those that God show forth his mighty power to by resurrecting them from being dead in trespasses and sin, to life in Jesus Christ. When folks are on their heels backing up, then we get such unscriptural responses such as yours.

And to WHOM did God show His mighty power RB?

WHY was the gospel preached?

For salvation.....the reformed/calvinist faith system has no need for the gospel because God will be doing all the choosing.


Here are some verses about WHO will be chosen....who will be the elect:

1 John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

5 but whoever * keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.

10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.


Please note: No talk of predestination....
only instructions.

Instruction is not needed if we have no Free Will but are decreed by God to do our every action.

Plenty more verses if you really need them.

 

[Selah]

What are you claiming RB?
Are you saying that we are all responsible for Adam's sin?
If so,,,then why don't your fellow Calvinist believers agree with this?
@Selah, @brightfame52, @atpollard have all stated that the "elect" have ALWAYS been children of God.
Do you not agree?

We are not repsonsible for Adam's sin.
Each man is responsible for his own sin according to both the OT and the NT.


Romans 5:12 states that sin came into the world and now all have sinned ...
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—


We are responsible ONLY for our own sins:

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


Romans 14:12
12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.


Jeremiah 31:30
30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.


1 Peter 1:17
17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Actually RB,,,there's no such concept as the doctrine of grace....
it's a term made up by MEN....
there is very little grace in the god they have invented....
The reformed/calvinist I mean.



What a great verse RB!
Thanks for posting it.

Your verse:

1 Peter 1:2-3
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"


What does it teach:

1. We are elect (part of the saved) according to the FORKNOWLEDGE of God.
NOT predestination. verse 2

2. Through SANCTIFICATION....NOT predestination to salvation. verse 2

3. Through OBEDIENCE.....NOT predestination to salvation. verse 2

4. This is accomplished throught the sacrifice of Jesus....His blood. verse 3

5. God's mercy is His plan for our redemption through the resurrection of Jesus. verse 3


So simple to understand scripture when it's accepted as it is plainly stated.
Paul was very good at communicating what he meant.


Actually RB....
Jesus did make an appearance here on earth for 2 reasons:

1. To atone for the sins of man.

2. To establish the Kingdom of God here on earth.


The NT is replete with teachings of the above.

John 3:16 would attest to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus...as would also
1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.


As to the establishing of the Kingdom:
too many verses:
Matthew 5...the beatitudes would be some....
All teachings of Jesus about THE KINGDOM --- and there are many, as I'm sure you're aware.


You accuse @synergy of adding to scripture because he mentioned other verses.
This is most interesting, since YOU, in all your posts to me, have been all over different verses in the NT and OT trying to disprove my statements.
What is good for YOU RB,,,,you must also accepted from others when they're trying to make a valid point.


And to WHOM did God show His mighty power RB?

WHY was the gospel preached?

For salvation.....the reformed/calvinist faith system has no need for the gospel because God will be doing all the choosing.


Here are some verses about WHO will be chosen....who will be the elect:

1 John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

5 but whoever * keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.

10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.


Please note: No talk of predestination....
only instructions.

Instruction is not needed if we have no Free Will but are decreed by God to do our every action.

Plenty more verses if you really need them.

Sis, if you would just read the Word of God instead of endlessly debating and falsely accusing folks, you’d find out that the Bible is actually easy to understand. Just read it, and read it without jumping around; that way, the context is not broken and you’ll be able to “hear” what the LORD, the Creator of all the earth, has to say to you. …Selah

 

[synergy]

Actually RB,,,there's no such concept as the doctrine of grace....
it's a term made up by MEN....
there is very little grace in the god they have invented....
The reformed/calvinist I mean.

Calvinism's doctrines of grace are actually Doctrines of Disgrace. That's because calvinism strips man of the dignity that God gifts to everyone. Calvinism labels everyone as depraved with useless minds and evil wills. They even have the audacity to slander Jesus as limiting his limitless love for everyone. How disgraceful can one get?

CC: @Selah

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvinism's doctrines of grace are actually Doctrines of Disgrace. That's because calvinism strips man of the dignity that God gifts to everyone. Calvinism labels everyone as depraved with useless minds and evil wills. They even have the audacity to slander Jesus as limiting his limitless love for everyone. How disgraceful can one get?

CC: @Selah

Amen to all brother!

 

[GodsGrace]

Sis, if you would just read the Word of God instead of endlessly debating and falsely accusing folks, you’d find out that the Bible is actually easy to understand. Just read it, and read it without jumping around; that way, the context is not broken and you’ll be able to “hear” what the LORD, the Creator of all the earth, has to say to you. …Selah

The question is selah...
WHAT is the bible saying?

Are you reading the same word I'm reading?
Or are you learning from some guy?

Must go...will reply later on.

 

[Selah]

The question is selah...
WHAT is the bible saying?

Are you reading the same word I'm reading?
Or are you learning from some guy?

Must go...will reply later on.

Awww… you know better than that.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

There is nothing to understand, only to see and believe or to see and not believe. What I said is undeniable truth.

A yes or no, would have been proper to answer @ProDeo.

It is this world's tradition that if man wants to know God, they shop through the smorgasbord of religious sects and businesses of this world, of which there are literally thousands, until they pick one that suits them,

Of which you are part of one of them, and have done the same. There the big difference between you beliefs system and the word of God's testimony. Let me explain by using such scriptures as this one:

Galatians 4:9​

“But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?”

Studyman, I never have shop through the smorgasbord of religious sects (as you called it) and then to come to know God, and none of his children have done so. I never have on my own so called free will come to know God, by seeking after him, BEFORE he first sought me, because from eternity past I, like all of the very elect, were known by God with an everlasting love, per Romans. We love him, why? Because he first love us. 1st John 4:19, or, we would have never love him.

Romans 8:29​

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

The personal pronoun whom indicates and reminds us of personal election as sons of God.

God’s purpose begins in foreknowledge, which is beyond omniscience; it is love beforehand! The Spirit’s carefully chosen words say it is whom He foreknew, not what He foreknew. This is far beyond bare omniscience, for His bare omniscience has foreknown all men. This is far beyond bare omniscience, for His will is supreme in salvation (9:15-16; etc.). This is far beyond bare omniscience, as He will declare He never knew many (Matthew 7:23) as he did foreknow his elect

What God foreknew about us by bare omniscience, for He did inspect and examine our race, was universal sinful rebellion, without a single exception (Psalm 14:1-3; 53:1-3). To know in the Bible has another sense different from bare knowledge, one of special affection, approval, benevolence, and design (Genesis 4:1; Psalms 1:6; Jeremiah 1:5; Amos 3:2).

He shall deny He ever knew the wicked – He never loved them (Matthew 7:23; Psalms 5:5; 11:5). He loved His elect from everlasting, and He always shall (Jeremiah 31:3; Ephesians 1:4; 5:25). God’s choice and love of the elect also predestinated them to adoption (see Ephesians 1:3-6).

I haven't asked you to understand me, I have promoted that we study what is actually written yourself, as opposed to just blindly following the traditions and philosophies of the "other voices" in the garden God placed you in.

Well, Studyman, that's what folks do they search the scriptures, seeking to follow the word of God only ~ so what happens when folks disagree WITH YOU, while they are truly seeking the word of God, are they following this world's religion, because they strongly disagree with you? Without question, someone needs to be converted from their errors, but who? That's why we are here and why you are here, not so much that either are seeking to following this world's mad religious system under the power of the spirit of antichrist, which system has many different fowls of air lodging in their branches, per Christ.

Shall we not take God seriously, and believe He warns us for a reason??

I would not accuse some of not taking God serious, but for sure many are living under a very strong delusion.

 

[Darrell L.]

Sis, if you would just read the Word of God instead of endlessly debating and falsely accusing folks, you’d find out that the Bible is actually easy to understand. Just read it, and read it without jumping around; that way, the context is not broken and you’ll be able to “hear” what the LORD, the Creator of all the earth, has to say to you. …Selah

You can't go wrong with sticking to reading your bible.

“Inside of me there are two dogs. One is mean and evil and the other is good and they fight each other all the time. When asked which one wins I answer, the one I feed the most.” --Sitting Bull

This quote from Sitting Bull is similar to a Cherokee legend in which “An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life.

“‘A fight is going on inside me,’ he said to the boy.

‘It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.’ He continued, ‘The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.’

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, ‘Which wolf will win?’

The old Cherokee simply replied, ‘The one you feed.'”

So do we feed the spirit or the flesh?

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. Galatians 5:17

 

[Studyman]

Well, I believe in the new covenant as explained in Hebrews, some passages :

Well this is progress. You don't deny that both the religious and non-religious world you live in, rejects God's commandments by their own tradition, they despise God's Judgments and have crated their own judgments. They reject God's Statutes, and have created their own high days that are observed by the entire world, and they pollute Gods Sabbaths or outright reject them and create their own. So you know this is the truth. And we have all been born with the desire to justify our deeds. This world's religious men, who profess to know God, justify their deeds by adopting certain "works of the Law", or as it were "certain" Inspired Words of God, which is the same thing, to justify their deeds.

But if you were to study for yourself "ALL" of what God teaches through His Inspired Word, you would find, as I and others have, that God, through His servants like Moses and the Prophets, His Only begotten Son, the Jesus "of the Bible", and the Apostles and Disciples that God gave to Jesus, do not teach this at all. There is a spirit in this world that influences and teaches men to reject God's instructions in righteousness, like the religions of this world you are defending and promoting does. But it's not the Spirit of God, at least, not according to His Inspired Word, the bible.

So truly you have been taught a New Covenant, but it wasn't the New Covenant God describes in Jer. 31 or in Hebrews 7-10. If you are interested, you can do the work yourself, and study to be approved on God. Or you can join the masses in the broad path, and them direct your footsteps. The latter is certainly much easier.

Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.

I am hoping you might be willing to answer my questions. Most of the promoters of this world's religious system can't really, because like with the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time, they know the answers expose their religion as not from God. I hope you and I can rise above all that, and examine and study the Scriptures you post together, and ask and answer questions of each other honestly, not to justify one view over another, but in order to understand if our views and opinions are "Wrought in the Sprit of God", or the spirit of this world.

Here are my questions. "Before" Faith came to Caleb, what Law was he held captive to, imprisoned until the Faith to come would be revealed? "Before" Faith came to Paul, what Law was he held captive to, imprisoned until the coming Faith would be revealed. "Before" Faith came to Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, what Law were they held captive to, imprisoned until the coming Faith would be revealed.

"Before" Faith came, How were the sins of Caleb, Paul, Zacharias, Simeon and Anna forgiven? Was it not through the Levitical Priesthood, according to what is written?

Lev.4: 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Wasn't this the "law" that was Added 430 years after God said that Abraham "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws". Isn't this the Law Zacharias was under, held captive to "imprisoned until the coming Faith would be revealed"?

And if it wasn't, the what "law" have you been taught this is speaking to?

Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Aren't true believers still supposed to repent and "Yield themselves" servant to obey God? But they don't don't go to the Levite Priest anymore to receive God's Laws, or to provide for forgiveness of sins, why is that? Doesn't it say in Heb. 7 that the Priesthood changed? That the Law stating a Priest had to be a Levite, and to be justified of sin we are to take a goat to the Levite Priest, as the Pharisees in Paul's Time were still promoting?

Wasn't this Law designed to "Lead Jews and strangers who sojourned among them" to God's True Priest?

Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

True, this Priesthood had become old, and was ready to pass away in Paul's Time.

Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Yes, as it is written Ps. 100:4 "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek".

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Yes, as it is written Ex. 12:49 "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you."

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

If you are Christs, you are Abraham's Children.

Hebr 7:22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

Yes, as it is written: Heb. 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

And what are those promises according to the God that made them? Here, listen to God define them Himself in Jer. 31..

"After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (No more going to the Levite Priest to receive the Law.)

"for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (No more held captive under a Law requiring men to go to are carnal priest from the tribe of Levi to forgive sins)

Hebr 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Praise God for His New High Priest, and the better promises HE gave us.

But ProDeo, where is it written in any of these places that the New Covenant is a religion that rejects God's Laws, despises His Judgments, and statutes and creates their own images of God in the likeness of men, and creates their own high days in worship of this man-made image?

Answer my questions if you are interested, and ask me anything you like. But if you are only here on a mission, like Red is, to promote one of the "many" religious sects and businesses of this world, in spite of what is actually written, please let me know and I will move on.

 

[Jim]

@Studyman

A yes or no, would have been proper to answer @ProDeo.

Of which you are part of one of them, and have done the same. There the big difference between you beliefs system and the word of God's testimony. Let me explain by using such scriptures as this one:

Galatians 4:9​

“But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?”

Studyman, I never have shop through the smorgasbord of religious sects (as you called it) and then to come to know God, and none of his children have done so. I never have on my own so called free will come to know God, by seeking after him, BEFORE he first sought me, because from eternity past I, like all of the very elect, were known by God with an everlasting love, per Romans. We love him, why? Because he first love us. 1st John 4:19, or, we would have never love him.

Romans 8:29​

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

The personal pronoun whom indicates and reminds us of personal election as sons of God.

God’s purpose begins in foreknowledge, which is beyond omniscience; it is love beforehand! The Spirit’s carefully chosen words say it is whom He foreknew, not what He foreknew. This is far beyond bare omniscience, for His bare omniscience has foreknown all men. This is far beyond bare omniscience, for His will is supreme in salvation (9:15-16; etc.). This is far beyond bare omniscience, as He will declare He never knew many (Matthew 7:23) as he did foreknow his elect

That is the perfect example of reading into God's word what you want it to say, not what it actually says. So many who quote Romans 8:29-30 do so without regard for what it actually says. Verse 29 begins with the English word "for". That comes from the Greek word "hoti" meaning because or since. That necessarily refers back to the preceding verse, verse 28.

(KJV) Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Thus all things work together for them that love God because He foreknew who they would be. The "whom" of verse 29 is specifically "them that love God". They are the ones who are called according to his purpose. Verses 29 and 30 then proceed to explain how that comes about. God foreknew those who would love Him. They are the ones that he predestined. They are the ones he also called, justified and glorified.

That is the plain reading of that passage.

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie

Nora, that's a very statement ~ not to mention unscriptural.

First, you and I had a perfect choice IN ADAM by being in him as his posterity ~ Adam being the head and representative of his people that came from him.

Secondly, If God did not elect us according to the good pleasure of his will, then none would, or could have came by their own depraved nature that is at enmity against the God of heaven and earth.

1st Peter 1:2​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

What did God foresee? He saw that NONE would, or could come unto Him, apart from his mighty power, which power is the same power that resurrected Christ from the dead.

Ephesians 1:19,20​

“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”

Disagree.

I said....

We have no choice and God chooses.

That is enough to strike fear .

You believe that God has chosen who before time. You believe predestination, whether you ignore being called a Calvinist that is what you believe.

But Calvin did say. ", predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death

AND Westminster Confession of faith, Chapter 3 also says.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:41.
Rom. 9:22,23; Eph. 1:5,6; Prov. 16:4.

So , if this is what has been preordained in the predestined plan of God, and people are chose for the salvation route... and all else is going to their death or damnation, depending on what one reads..... THEN

Since it is decided before we are born there is nothing we can do, and more then likely people do not even know
it certainly is enough to strike fear since we cannot do anything.

BUT... IF.... from the predestined believing source of Bible Hub...

Why does God condemn individuals to hell?

Why does God condemn individuals to hell?

Point 4:

4. Free Will and Personal Responsibility

Many passages present human beings as moral agents responsible for their choices. From Genesis onward, God sets before humanity the path of obedience and the path of rebellion, urging us to choose life (Deuteronomy 30:19).

(Deu 10:19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,)

Because of free will, each person has the genuine capacity to accept or reject God’s revelation. Rejecting that invitation and clinging to sin fosters separation from the holy presence of God. Hell, then, becomes the ultimate culmination of a persistent choice to remain apart from God’s saving grace.

Which is certainly what I believe..... most free will believers also believe....

For me God lays it out and makes the offer and we decide. THAT IS BIBLICAL.

But if God decides for us before we are born, then it most definitely should strike fear for we then have no choice.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

A yes or no, would have been proper to answer @ProDeo.

Of which you are part of one of them, and have done the same. There the big difference between you beliefs system and the word of God's testimony. Let me explain by using such scriptures as this one:

Galatians 4:9​

“But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?”

LOL, the hits keep coming.

For those reading along, consider Red's corrupted teaching concerning this verse, that he blindly posts as the promoters of this world's religious system has been doing all my life. I showed him his error several years ago, but he cannot be corrected.

Red, Kenneth Copeland, and "many" other preachers "who come in Christ's Name" preach, and has for years and years, that the "Weak and Beggarly Elements" Paul is talking about here, are God's Statutes and Commandments that Paul and Jesus and God and the Prophets all said to keep.

Let's examine together what is actually written to see if Paul is saying as Red preaches, that God's Laws are the "weak and Beggarly Elements" he speaks to.

8 Howbeit then, when ye "knew not" God, ye did service unto them which by nature "are no gods".

So these men, most likely Gentiles, served other gods before "Yielding themselves" to Paul's God. Paul points out that they didn't even "Know God" in times past. I'm assuming this is speaking to the God of Abraham, correct me if you have evidence to the contrary.

9 But now, after that ye have "known God", or rather "are known of God", how "turn ye again" to the "weak and beggarly elements", whereunto ye desire "again" to be in bondage?

So since my youth, preachers like Red would have me believe that these Gentiles, even "before" they knew God, and were serving them that were no gods, were following God's Laws, walking in His Sabbaths, His Passover, HIS Feast of Unleavened Bread like Paul was walking in, etc. Then Paul found them, and taught them to reject God's Laws, judgments, statutes and commandments, but now these same men were being enticed to go back to when they "didn't know God", and they "Desired Again" to be brought in bondage to God's Laws ***** "Again".

This is probably the stupidest interpretation of Scriptures I have ever heard.

But then I remember that I too, was also once deceived into believing Red's teaching about God here, "Wherein in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

But now, after I have turned away from this world's religions, and the philosophies promoted therein, and have known God, I understand what Jesus meant about Leaven, and how it puffs up and corrupts the entire body, bringing blindness to teachings, even to the foolishness of believing Gentiles in Gal. 4 were walking in God's Statutes and judgments before they knew God.

But when a person actually reads what Paul "ACTUALLY" said, it becomes perfectly clear that Paul wasn't calling God's Commandments "Weak And Beggarly Elements", as does Red, and "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord.

I guess Red is blind to the concept that were and still are religions of this world, "Who know Not God" who have created their own high days, who "observe days, and months, and times, and years". Jeremiah speaks to them, as do many other servants of God.

Jer. 10: 2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

Are we not all on a journey, an Exodus from being enslaved to Sin, to the promised land where God's Righteousness dwells? Has our minds not been influenced by the religions of this world, in the same way Israel was influenced by the world that surrounded them? Think of the Spiritual implication of God driving out the "nations" little by little, or leaving some of them to "Test Israel" whether or not they would be Faithful to Him. Like the thorn in Paul.

For me, God drove out the corruption of Red's teaching of these Scriptures from my mind, years ago. And I Come to the Light, for the very purpose of exposing my thoughts and beliefs, whether or not they are wrought in God or the spirit of this world. Each little lie being promoted, like the lie Red promotes, that Paul is calling God's God, Just, and Holy Laws, "Beggarly Elements", and "Rudiments of this world", and a "Yoke of Bondage", grows and grows, corrupts and corrupts, as leaven in bread. But we can Come to the Light, and the Light will expose the thought.

It isn't me who exposed Red's corrupt teaching about Gal. 4: 8,9. It was the Light. The same Light that has been there for centuries. It's just that "Many", who profess to know God, hide from the Light, "lest his deeds should be reproved."

Do God's Statutes and Judgments matter? Are His people supposed to submit to HIS Righteousness? I have said and believe that each person must decided for themselves.

The only reason I replied to this teaching of Red, is because it is a Lie to teach that Paul is teaching the Galatians, That God's Laws are "Beggarly Elements". And that anyone seek God's Truth, can clearly see this if they read what was actually written.

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

That is the perfect example of reading into God's word what you want it to say, not what it actually says. So many who quote Romans 8:29-30 do so without regard for what it actually says. Verse 29 begins with the English word "for". That comes from the Greek word "hoti" meaning because or since. That necessarily refers back to the preceding verse, verse 28.

Greetings old friend. At least I got you up and moving, still praying for your great loss of your son, not to mention your wife two years ago. Good to see you posting in all sincerity. You said:

"Verse 29 begins with the English word "for". That comes from the Greek word "hoti" meaning because or since. Amen Jim, and please do not forget that when you and I discuss Acts 2:38 again, where "for" is used in the sense "BECASUE OF".

Romans 8:28​

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

I love the word "For" in verse 29, that takes us back to ~ "who are the called according to his purpose.” Which proves that our works, including any work that we have an active part in does not have one thing to do with us being children of God, all glory belongs to Jesus Christ's redemption work for God's elect. I think this clearly point to men like you reading something into the scriptures that is not there in order to support what they have come to believe in, being so hard for them to let go of what they have accepted as truth, when in truth it is NOT God's truth from his word.

Thus all things work together for them that love God because He foreknew who they would be.

Jim, that is impossible for men in the flesh to love God apart from being first born of the Spirit of God and having a new man that can love, fear, and submit to God, but not until then...impossible.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

That is, in my flesh. If this is true of Paul, then you must know that it is true of all of us, born through Adam's generation.

That is the plain reading of that passage.

Yes, what I just posted.

 

[JLB]

It should be clear which commandments where only until Christ, and only for Israel. We DO NOT obey in order to be justified legally before God. There are no commandments blinding on us in order to enter into life ~ reason being, Christ alone secured eternal life for each and every child of God. But, we as you, but what rule of law is higher than the law of God contained in the Ten Commandments to be used as a rule to live by than God's holy, good and spiritual laws contained therein? There are none. Even as a rule to live by, they show us just how sinful and depraved we are by nature in our flesh, where dwells no good thing, no, not one.

Show me from the law of Moses where it says we can pick and choose which laws to keep.


It’s all of them or be cursed.


Therefore the entire law of Moses is still for today or it has been abolished.

The law of Moses was the dividing wall of separation between Jew and Gentile.

Not it has been removed so that the intended “one new man” is established by the New Covenant.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16

It should be clear which commandments where only until Christ, and only for Israel. We DO NOT obey in order to be justified legally before God. There are no commandments blinding on us in order to enter into life ~ reason being, Christ alone secured eternal life for each and every child of God. But, we as you, but what rule of law is higher than the law of God contained in the Ten Commandments to be used as a rule to live by than God's holy, good and spiritual laws contained therein? There are none. Even as a rule to live by, they show us just how sinful and depraved we are by nature in our flesh, where dwells no good thing, no, not one.

His commandments are now written on our heart and mind.

Just as Abraham walk before Him is His presence and kept His commandments so shall those who are filled with the Spirit walk according to the Spirit.

• because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:5

Obeying His voice, hearing His voice and following Him is what we are called to do.


However, it not the law of Moses which we are led to walk in but the law of Christ.

The law of Moses has been abolished.


But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

 

[civic]

Show me from the law of Moses where it says we can pick and choose which laws to keep.


It’s all of them or be cursed.


Therefore the entire law of Moses is still for today or it has been abolished.

The law of Moses was the dividing wall of separation between Jew and Gentile.

Not it has been removed so that the intended “one new man” is established by the New Covenant.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16




His commandments are now written on our heart and mind.

Just as Abraham walk before Him is His presence and kept His commandments so shall those who are filled with the Spirit walk according to the Spirit.

• because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:5

Obeying His voice, hearing His voice and following Him is what we are called to do.


However, it not the law of Moses which we are led to walk in but the law of Christ.

The law of Moses has been abolished.


But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

The moral law is still in tact today which Jesus and the Apostles affirmed and James calls it the Royal Law- Love God with all of your heart, mind, soul and your neighbor as yourselves. The N.T. affirms children obey your parents, no idolatry, stealing, murder/hate etc......

 

[Studyman]

@Jim

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

That is, in my flesh. If this is true of Paul, then you must know that it is true of all of us, born through Adam's generation.

But again, you only post parts of God's Inspired words of Paul. What do we find if we read the conclusion of Paul's actual teaching.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Can Cain and Abel not say the exact same thing? What did God tell Cain?

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Can't Eve say the exact same thing? Wasn't evil present with Eve before she ate? Of course it was. Wasn't she also supposed to "Rule over it"? Can't the same be said about Abraham? And didn't he rule over sin? And how did Abraham Rule over the evil that was present in him?

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

What does Paul actually teach here about this dilemma? Here, let me show you through the words you omitted.

Rom. 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! "who shall deliver me" from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then "with the mind" I myself "serve the law of God"; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And what is the Law of Sin? "The wages of Sin is death", yes? Can then a "Dead Flesh" have any power over you? Not if you serve the Law of God with your mind. In this way, Paul Rules over his Flesh, it doesn't rule Paul. And Not "Paul", but Christ in Paul.

And what does Paul call "Serving the Law of God with his mind"? He tells us in the next sentence.

Rom. 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, "who walk" not after the flesh, ( Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience) but after the Spirit. (Serving with his mind, the Law of God, and become servants to God's Righteousness).

Serving God's Law with our mind, is walking in the Spirit. Rejecting God's Law in our mind, is walking in the Flesh.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from "the law of sin and death".

Not the Law of the Pharisees, the law of the Catholics, the Law of the Protestants or the Law of the prince of this world. But the Law of Spirit of Life Which is in Christ Jesus. And that would be the Laws of God.

 

[Selah]

That is the perfect example of reading into God's word what you want it to say, not what it actually says. So many who quote Romans 8:29-30 do so without regard for what it actually says. Verse 29 begins with the English word "for". That comes from the Greek word "hoti" meaning because or since. That necessarily refers back to the preceding verse, verse 28.

(KJV) Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Thus all things work together for them that love God because He foreknew who they would be. The "whom" of verse 29 is specifically "them that love God". They are the ones who are called according to his purpose. Verses 29 and 30 then proceed to explain how that comes about. God foreknew those who would love Him. They are the ones that he predestined. They are the ones he also called, justified and glorified.

That is the plain reading of that passage.

Yes, “to them that love God.” It’s plainly stated, and yet some don’t “see” it. They endlessly debate and accuse. It’s really a sad thing …selah.

 

[JLB]

The moral law is still in tact today which Jesus and the Apostles affirmed and James calls it the Royal Law- Love God with all of your heart, mind, soul and your neighbor as yourselves. The N.T. affirms children obey your parents, no idolatry, stealing, murder/hate etc......

No such thing as the moral law.
The Royal law refers to the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.
“Royal” denotes the unique Melchizedek Priesthood because he is both king and priest.
Jesus is our high priest as well as our king.