Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[MTMattie]

 Continued disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief. In regard to the 100 sheep in Luke 15, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self-righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that one of Jesus' sheep who He gave eternal life to lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, (which contradicts John 10:27-28) but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

So, this parable does not teach that this one "sheep" in this case was a saved person who lost their salvation and had to repent and get saved all over again. That is not the point. Context is key. Luke 15:1-2 sets the scene. The religious leaders criticized Jesus for associating with these sinners. Jesus responds with three parables describing how these religious leaders should have reacted when faced with sinners who wish to repent.

Now look what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. Not save those all over again who lost salvation. Jeremiah 50:6 - My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray. Doesn't mean they were saved. The Israelites are His people (chosen people of God) and His sheep physically, even the lost ones.

In regard to confessing our sins, notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

Certain folks seem to misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory of every sin) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin, we are toast!"

There was a televangelist who explained this way.

Once your sins are forgiven they are gone (Boy do I pray that to be so) but each and every time you sin now you should ask forgiveness for that sin because he felt someone was posting each sin under your name and when you ask for forgiveness it would be erased.

No... not saying I belive this but is a good way to remind oneself to not let them go by as if they dont matter

Who could actually write an exhaustive list of every sin they have ever committed or ever will commit? Sin is not only missing the mark by what we do but also what we fail to do. (James 4:17)

Believers "confess" (Greek - homologeó) speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast with saying that we have no sin or that we have not sinned. (1 John 1:8-10)

In regard to Matthew 18:12-17, if a brother sins against another and continues to refuse to repent and make things right, then the Jewish community of believers is to treat this person as an outsider, as if they were a tax collector or heathen/Gentile. Jesus uses a description of this consequence, by using the examples of tax collectors and heathens/Gentiles, which shows He is talking to His group of Jewish disciples within the context of their Jewish culture. Nothing here about a loss of salvation.

Who could write an exhaustive list.? IDK but the older I get I seem to remember things I had long put into the back of my brain.

 

[GodsGrace]

You said Jesus NEVER said to trust in Him yet Jesus said he who believes in Him is not condemned in John 3:18 and believe involves trust.

I said that Jesus never said to trust ONLY Him....
You believe in monergism...
I believe in synergism.

If I have faith in Jesus....
I also trust Him.

Nowhere in the NT does Jesus stop at "just believe in me and all will be OK".
No. He stated HOW we are to be saved....He gave instructions in His parables and in His teachings.

We have a relationship with Jesus.
A relationship is a two-way street.

We have faith in Him for our salvation...
He expects us to obey His commands.


John 14:21a
21Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me.

Yet once again, in your last post you said - Jesus NEVER said to trust in Him.

Clarified above.

Trusting in works as the means of receiving eternal life and to maintain salvation is trusting in self for accomplishing those works for salvation.

If so, we are we exhorted to do good works?

Do you want to obey Jesus?
If so, it includes doing good works.

Those who teach against good works are teaching against Jesus....

Hebrews 5:9
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
To All Who Obey Him.

Jesus does want us to abide in Him, which is to continue, remain and we see that they 11 remaining disciples did abide in Him, but n9t Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

It's not an extremely difficult burden either.

Descriptive of children of God. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I'm not discussing Judas.
And I can agree with 1 John 3:9 and not going back to check what I had posted.

Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine. The spiritual and vital connection that bears fruit and the self attached connection which bears no fruit. (John 15:2) Believers like the remaining 11 disciples abide. Make believers like Judas Iscariot do not abide.

You're obsessed with make-believers.

What Jesus stated is very clear:

Unfruitful branches are severed...broken off...taken away.

Branches are vitally connected or they CANNOT bear fruit.

What is a self-attched branch?? (that bears no fruit)
I don't read anything in the NT about self-attaching.

What I DO read is that we MUST abide or we can do nothing....
such as bear fruit...which we are taught by Jesus to do.


John 15:5-6
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

In 1 John 4:13, we read - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Your verse 1 John 4:13
Yes. God has given us His spirit.
Is that the end of it?

Just an aside...why go looking for verses that you THINK will deny what JESUS taught in John 15:1-6??

No. It is not the end of it.
Because, John,,,just a few verse later states this:

1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
2 John 1:9
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
John exhorts us to abide in Christ.
We have free will.
It's our choice.

IF is a confirmation.

IF is a confirmation???

IF I go to school....
means I'm going to school???

IF is a conditinal word.
Let's look at the verses again:

John 15:5-7a
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
77 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever * you wish, and it will be done for you.


IF one does NOT abide....he is thrown away as a branch....
IF one DOES abide....he can ask whatever he wishes.

Whether one is thrown away as a branch
or
Can ask whatever he wishes
is CONDITIONAL on whether or not he abides....

And it is something WE must accomplish.
God will not force us.
We are given the choice.

God does not need to force the willing. Abiding is not forced or legalistic for children of God.

You post as if God is going to force us to abide in Him.
If we cannot FALL AWAY, as the NT teaches that we can....then it would mean that we no longer have free will
and God forces us to remain saved.
Which He does not, of course.

His commandments are all summed up in the two great commandments of loving God with all our heart, soul and mind and soul and our neighbor as ourself. (Matthew 22:37-40) People typically think of the 10 commandments and other commands include repent, follow Him, makes disciples, be baptized, forgive others, pray, observe the Lord's Supper.

So now you're admitting that it's not necessary for us to obey the Commandments?
That's what it sounds like.
Is @Eternally-Grateful around? He's been asking about this.

Would you like to clarify what it sounds like you just stated?
BTW,,,,the Two Great Commandments INCLUDE all the 10.

Jesus is dividing the sheep (believers) and the goats (unbelievers). I already covered the sheep and the goats with you in post #514.

I'm tired of hearing about the sheep and the goats.

Jesus, in Matthew 25 is dividing those that obeyed what He taught
and those that did not.

He's dividing the ones that fed and clothed and visited...
and those that did not.

He's comparing those that DID
and those that DID NOT DO.

They are neither suggestions or are burdensome or are the basis or means by which the goats obtained salvation. Those good works are the fruit of salvation in the lives of the goats.

Jesus said to do them.
Spin it as you like...
Jesus stated that we are to do these things.
He was speaking to humans...not goats or sheep.

I'm only fighting against salvation by works/works-righteousness and not against obeying God as a Christian.

You're fighting against obeying Jesus...GOD INCARNATE.
The Word made Flesh.
Who came to atone for your sins.
And to bring God's Kingdom on earth.
To make a better place FOR YOU.

And you fight Him all the way.

YOU call it salvation by works.
Others call it obeying God.

Strawman argument. Just because we are not saved based on the merits of obeying all the commands from God (nobody except Jesus Christ has flawlessly obeyed them and only He is without sin) doesn't mean it's not unimportant to obey God. Imperfect obedience cannot save you. Only Jesus Christ can save you when you place your faith in Him for salvation.

Strawman back at you Dan.
Not even checking what you're replying to.
If you think it's important to obey God...then post like it is.
And imperfect obedience cannot save me? (or anyone).
So you know someone that is perfect?

Keep that strawman coming....

 

[GodsGrace]

There was a televangelist who explained this way.

Once your sins are forgiven they are gone (Boy do I pray that to be so) but each and every time you sin now you should ask forgiveness for that sin because he felt someone was posting each sin under your name and when you ask for forgiveness it would be erased.

No... not saying I belive this but is a good way to remind oneself to not let them go by as if they dont matter

Who could write an exhaustive list.? IDK but the older I get I seem to remember things I had long put into the back of my brain.

Strawmen MT.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Holy Spirit, not Ignatius, although I'm sure he may very well have been a fine fellow.

I met Jesus before I even knew a single thing except there was a God who died for my sins.

But HOW do you know about Jesus?
Do you know about His miracles?
Do you know where He was born?
Do you know about His resurrection?
HOW do you know?

 

[GodsGrace]

Because some people resist what the Bible says...

I don't know if you've ever noticed that fact.

Funny D.
So let's take OSAS, for instance.

I just started with the ECFs some years ago...
Did THEY believe in OSAS?

They were taught by the Apostles.
Did the Apostles believe in OSAS?

See what I mean.
I used to think like you until I started to read them.
There's a whole library of their writings (don't run out and buy it !! LOL)
but I can't get it here in English and I can't retain Italian (studied over there)...
but there's a lot of their writings on the net.
The net sure comes in handy...

 

[Hosanna]

Funny D.
So let's take OSAS, for instance.

I just started with the ECFs some years ago...
Did THEY believe in OSAS?

They were taught by the Apostles.
Did the Apostles believe in OSAS?

See what I mean.
I used to think like you until I started to read them.
There's a whole library of their writings (don't run out and buy it !! LOL)
but I can't get it here in English and I can't retain Italian (studied over there)...
but there's a lot of their writings on the net.
The net sure comes in handy...

Yes it most certainly does. The net was made to share information.

Sharing information was a primary goal in the creation of the internet. The early networks like ARPANET were designed to allow researchers and government agencies to share data and collaborate, and this core principle of information sharing remains central to the Internet's purpose today

 

[Dizerner]

But HOW do you know about Jesus? HOW do you know?

The truth of Jesus is conveyed through Holy Spirit most times using his Word or people sharing his Word.

There are special exceptions where people meet Christ in a dream or vision, but it always points back to Scripture.

Just reading the Bible is not enough to tell you who Jesus is, it has to be revelation, you have to understand what it's saying.

 

[Dizerner]

Funny D. So let's take OSAS, for instance. I just started with the ECFs some years ago... Did THEY believe in OSAS? They were taught by the Apostles. Did the Apostles believe in OSAS?

You don't need all that. You just need the Word and Spirit.

I will use ECFs sometimes as a grace to people, but you don't need that.

 

[GodsGrace]

"there will be many a people who thought their were holy because of all their good works. who will be told this same thing"

I stand by that statement.

I pray you are not one of those people

You DID say what I thought you said.
Let's look at it:

Some will think they were HOLY because of the good works they did.

Who thinks they could be holy except for believers?
Certainly not unbelievers...they don't care to be holy.

So, we're discussing believers that are doing good works.
WHY would they be told depart from Me?

Aren't they just doing what Jesus said to do?

More than that, I do them because I trusted God to save my from what i deserved (death and hell) and since I trusted him with my eternity. I trust him with every day things in my life.. In fact. I am still learning to trust him in areas.

We're all of us trusting Jesus.

Does this mean we're not to obey Him??

so you cannot lose salvation if you do not work?

There you go

Number 2 is works.. Your obeying (working) to get saved.

Number 2 is works?
This is what I stated:
To be saved one must:
1. Believe in God.
2. Obey God.

Again,,,you're saying we are not to obey God.

How is obedience to God works salvation??

This is why I say that if you want to call obedience to God, works salvation...
then I'm OK accepting that definition.

your trying to merit salvation by your works.

Again....you're describing obedience as works.


1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

it gets no more clearer than this

if your doing them to get saved, your doing them to merit salvation.

Jesus did not teach you this. Maybe the roman catholic church did? But jesus did not

LOL
Just to be clear...
The CC doesn't do much teaching.

Do I have to mention the Pew Research Poll on Protestants believing in doing good works again?

again, post all you want. And I will post the verses that counter them


I am talking before during and after

BEFORE....NO
During.....yes
After.....I hope we'll be in heaven.

I am saved by grace through faith not works.

Agreed.

God did not give me a downpayment, He did not barter with me, He saved me, he rescued me from the wage of my sin.

Well actually it's a down payment.

yet you say you must work to be saved (obey)

Yes. We must obey.
Obedience inludes works.

come on sis.

Yes. But not to stay saved.

If you don't obey....will you still be saved?
That would be a life of sin.

that would put us under law not under grace.

The Law is dead.
But grace is not cheap.

yes. and if we do not. we will be lifted up. pruned. and God will cut parts of us off that do not bear fruit and burn them in the fire.

I don't read PARTS of us.

I read the BRANCH will be cut off.
You're changing Jesus' words.

I have never denied it. I have always said it, although I keep being accused of denying it

The gospel message.. Trust him

not works.

It's synergism....it's a two-way street.

Grace through faith. not of ourselves. salvation is a gift. A gift cannot be earned, Jesus paid for the gift with his blood..

You're talking about getting saved.
I'm talking about after.

I do not need scripture.. But you have much scripture you need to resolve

I have it resolved.
No need to change the words of Jesus,,,as is often done.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't need all that. You just need the Word and Spirit.

I will use ECFs sometimes as a grace to people, but you don't need that.

I don't post them either (or very very rarely if they're brought up).
But it has been a blessing for me to know what they taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

The truth of Jesus is conveyed through Holy Spirit most times using his Word or people sharing his Word.

There are special exceptions where people meet Christ in a dream or vision, but it always points back to Scripture.

Just reading the Bible is not enough to tell you who Jesus is, it has to be revelation, you have to understand what it's saying.

OK D....
But WHO wrote the bible?

The reason you know about Jesus is because the Apostles, or those they taught, wrote about Jesus.
We know the story of Jesus because someone wrote about it so we could know it today.

There was no NT before it came into existance....
There was hardly anything written. Paul, Peter, James, etc...they went into all nations teaching about Jesus.

So, get this, my point is that we're trusting the APOSTLES to know about Jesus!

We're trusting what THEY taught and wrote....
Jesus wrote nothing down on paper.
Sometimes I wish He would have...

 

[Hosanna]

people sharing his Word

That can go bad. Jim Jones, David koresh, Warren Jeffs.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes it most certainly does. The net was made to share information.

Correct! It was for the government.

I remember how tedious it was get information.
I have a small (very small) library over there with the Smith Dictionary....
Concordances,,,,can't even remember what all those books are.
Now, you write 2 or 3 words and the verse comes up...
you can get meanings of words...
doctrinal issues....

It's great!

But we have to be careful,,,there's a lot of junk out there too.

Thanks for posting !

 

[MTMattie]

That can go bad. Jim Jones, David koresh, Warren Jeffs.


View attachment 1989

Awe, Let's not leave Marshall Applewhite out of this quasi- illustrious mix.

 

[ProDeo]

Well, I would suggest that if you are serious about this question, that you follow the instructions of the Jesus "of the Bible" and SEEK out God's Righteous Judgment about cattle.

In this way, you are not adopting my opinion or philosophy, rather, you are "Doing" the Sayings of Jesus, and seeking to know God's judgment concerning these things, and Jesus said if we Seek God's Righteousness, the answer to your question will be added unto you.

Lev 11:7 And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you.

Are you saying Christians are under the OT Law?

 

[Dizerner]

OK D....
But WHO wrote the bible?

The Holy Spirit.

The reason you know about Jesus is because the Apostles, or those they taught, wrote about Jesus.
We know the story of Jesus because someone wrote about it so we could know it today.

People who yielded to the Spirit.

Just writing the words of Scripture out mean nothing, the letter kills, only the Spirit brings life.

The Pharisees memorized Scripture and it did nothing for them.

There was no NT before it came into existance... There was hardly anything written.

The Holy Spirit's been around.

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2f-Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians. Please privately contact the Berean Board Team to voice your concern and not in public. If you have an issue with any member of moderator please use the report function below the post and address it to the Administrator of the forum.

 

[Hosanna]

Awe, Let's not leave Marshall Applewhite out of this quasi- illustrious mix.

Never heard of him that I recall. I'll have to look him up

 

[GodsGrace]

The Holy Spirit.



People who yielded to the Spirit.

Just writing the words of Scripture out mean nothing, the letter kills, only the Spirit brings life.

The Pharisees memorized Scripture and it did nothing for them.



The Holy Spirit's been around.

I would encourage you to meet him.

OK D....

 

[ProDeo]

This has been suggested, there are quite a few creative ways to try to get around it just being a straightforward warning.

Warning someone of something that literally cannot happen is a case of dishonesty.

It's like saying to your child, "If you don't clean your room, the closet monster will eat you!"

But it's a "hypothetical" warning that "is just theoretically impossible", right?!

No.... you just lied to your kid to get them to do something, lol.

Yeah... farfetched is a good word.

Yeah, you are probably right.

Once again -

Hebr 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Hebr 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hebr 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Makes me wonder what falling away means, provided we are talking (as the above suggest) about born again Christians, people of the good soil who produce fruits. Possibilities -

1. People temporarily (for whatever reason) are in desert experience, but still in the faith?
2. People temporarily start to doubt, but overcome?
3. People quit with the faith, break with God?

Curious about your perception.

 

[Hosanna]

Never heard of him that I recall. I'll have to look him up

Oh, right that the New Age movement guy . That one was very weird