Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Well, I would suggest that if you are serious about this question, that you follow the instructions of the Jesus "of the Bible" and SEEK out God's Righteous Judgment about cattle.

Studyman, tell me you have not been watching Chick-fil-A commercials and those cows got you converted.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you saying that there are 2 Faiths in James 2:14?

nope there is one

a faith that can not save.. A mere belief only. a faith that has no works. because it is lifeless. dead. nonexisten

Nope. I never said a "Yes" so you're misrepresenting me again. It looks like it makes you feel good to misrepresent me.

I never said you said yes

You think faith in James 14 is saving faith.. that says you believe licentious faith saves

So how many the Faith are there?

the faith refers to the faith of James 14. if one says he has faith...

not saving faith like you keep trying to point us to. If it was saving faith, it would have at least one work..

So now you're a Law advocate?

No. I am an advocate of grace and the gift of life. Not works of any type to earn or merit salvation

Then what was he talking about? Temporary justification? Tell us about your non-eternal justification.

Justification that was proven to be valid. because they did works.

if you have living faith you are saved, it will be proven by your works (see the faith hall of fame, they had living faith)

if you do not have living faith, You may show this by not having any works.. See Jude and 2 peter for those who have this kind of "non" or dead faith

False. He was saved where we're all saved. At the Cross. Nowhere else.

Yes, He was saved in gen 15. decades before he offered his son who was not even born when he was saved

You're stuck on merits and earnings for some reason. You just can't see past those terms.

No, Your stuck on trying to merit or earn your salvation.

I stopped doing that 40 year ago

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We weren't discussing "eternal life".

I was

I have no idea what you wer discussing

We were discussing them being His sheep or not. These passages all state that someone was once His sheep but is no longer.

Only in the context of Israel

Gifts can, and frequently do, have conditions upon their reception. There is no condition upon their purchase (the purchase ALWAYS comes before the receiving of them), but the purchase does not automatically result in the reception of the gift by the giftee.
God purchased salvation for us with Jesus' blood. But salvation is not received by everyone, even though Jesus died for everyone (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2). So there are conditions that each individual must meet before the gift is received by them.

Wrong

if this is true, they are not gifts.

why do you think you can be so righteous you can earn your salvation? Do you literally think God is going to tell you welcome home, you paid for your sin by all your good deeds..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That's not what I accused you of.

yes you did

Please strive to be more honest in your interactions here, you are showing signs of not caring.

lol.. Dude, please be honest. when you accuse either outright, or by proxy someone of doing somethign they have not done

When a valid logical point is met by "yawn" you should consider that's a sign of cognitive dissonance and self-deception.

or I should consider it your argument is so weak, and I have heard it so many times, it is putting me to sleep because it has no value

 

[Dizerner]

yes you did

No, I did not. Pay attention here.

Whether I say that you personally do the things Jesus said and whether you teach that you have to do the things Jesus said to be saved are two completely different things.

Yawn?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Huh? I'm not the one attaching merit and earnings to almost all my responses.

No your attaching it to the gospel

You don't think that the Faith can have 2 states: alive and dead?

Living faith saves

a dead faith can not save

no I do not believe in dead faith, you either trust in something or some one or you do not

If you do. you will follow that thing

if you do not. you will not..

He says "can the Faith save him?" The answer is No. Why? Because it's dead.
That proves that the Faith has 2 states.
You alluded to it yourself. You mentioned "it was dead".

no what it proves is they did nto have faith\

if we are saved by grace through faith

and we are not saved.

then either we were not given grace (i reject this idea, God offers it to all)

or we did not have faith

they did not trust God. its why they did not do any works.

Where do you see James talking to immoral unprincipled licentious persons????

THE HAD NO WORKS>

a licentious person says he believes, he tries to be part of the church, but they never do anything God asks. they live like the world.

why do you not understand this basic principle?

If that was the case then he would talk about their immorality like Paul did to the Corinthians.
You're switching the audience in your desperate attempt to find something to support your case.

nah, I am just interpreting James correctlyl. and seeing the people James spoke to in this way as to what they were.

easy believers who thought they could play church because they said they had faith. But showed their lack of faith by being hearers only and no doers.

WITHOUG WORKS.. they had no works. zero zip nada

Again, the fact remains that God is "demonstrative in force" but nobody calls him "that God". Same thing for the Faith.

your arguing against the fact. they had no faith. period/. no works equals no faith equals no salvation

we are not saved by grace through a dead faith

Your attempt to change James' audience will not work.

I did not change his audience, I properly interpreted his audience.

you just do not like it because I called you out for trusting in a licentious gospel

 

[Dizerner]

or I should consider it your argument is so weak, and I have heard it so many times, it is putting me to sleep because it has no value

If you've heard it "so many times" you would have one valid logical rebuttal to it.

Which you've never given to me.

So perhaps your "yawn" covers up your inability to rebut it.

One free will decision = not works.

Two free will decisions = works.

That's your "logic" here.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No, I did not. Pay attention here.

Whether I say that you personally do the things Jesus said and whether you teach that you have to do the things Jesus said to be saved are two completely different things.

Yawn?

by what you said, and your argument, you insinuated as you all do. that I do not believe obedience is ok.

you all say it to my face like daily

so yes. when you make that argument against me, yawn.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If you've heard it "so many times" you would have one valid logical rebuttal to it.

Which you've never given to me.

you have been given it to you by myself and many others

you do not have to agree with our arguments, but to say it is not valid. well that's just your pride talking

So perhaps your "yawn" covers up your inability to rebut it.

One free will decision = not works.

Two free will decisions = works.

That's your "logic" here.

No

one free will decision to TRUST THE WORK OF SOMEONE ELSE is not work

free will decision to do any type of work in order to gain the beneifit of what the other works for. that is works.

I know you find it hard to believe. but it is easy to see

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

LOL, I am no more insulted by your sophomoric ramblings than I would be from a mentally retarded adult, or a 2 year old child. Please stop Red, you are making a colossal fool of yourself.

I would not call a man a sophomore who is almost eighty years old, but, I do agree that that the aged are not alwasy wise as they should be, but, pretty sure wisdom will not die with folks like you ~ at least spiritual wisdom.

My point is to consider that if the Stomach purges all things, and makes ALL Things "Food", as you and this world's religious system promote, then why doesn't the stomach purge "Blood" that is drank, or animals that have been strangled?

God has commanded that we do not do so, under the NT. It is as simple as that.

t's a perfectly relevant question. I believe that answer is, "Because" God never sanctified "Blood" to be received "As Food", just as HE never Sanctified Strangled animals to be received "As Food".

Agreed

Just as He never sanctified Dogs, maggots, snails, pigs, poison dart frogs, etc., to be received as "Food". Your rambling is absurd.

Never have said, nor encourage anyone to eat Scooby-Doo, Rin Tin Tin, or, Snoopy; Tom, Figaro, and Cheshire Cat. I'll pass on maggots, and poison dart frogs; but will eat pork since God allows us to do so UNDER THE NT as I have already explain in detail.

To preach that Jesus made "ALL THINGS" Food, is stupid.

We teach and preach what Paul said in 1st Timothy 4~EVERY CREATURE is good, if a man is hungry and needed to eat. So, is Paul stupid by saying what he did?

There isn't one teaching in the entire Bible, EVER, that teaches or believed that the Christ would come to earth, and make "ALL Things "Food". So why would you preach such wicked foolishness? Because "you" like to eat pigs! How pathetic.

I cook Porky before I eat him, I cook him sometimes overnight on a fire out side if July the 4th get together is at our house which we have done a few times.

I'm not giving my pearls to you Red.

Studyman, you do not need to convinced me of that, I already know that you are neither a oyster or a mussel. I do not look for pearls form you.

I have a meeting @ 300. May or may not come back and finish, since what is left we have gone over already.

 

[Dizerner]

one free will decision to TRUST THE WORK OF SOMEONE ELSE is not work

Okay, what about two free will decisions to TRUST THE WORK OF SOMEONE ELSE.

Does the second become a work?

 

[mailmandan]

(Nobody here is a Sola Works advocate, least of all me.

I don't suspect that anyone here is solo works but there are certain folks on here who are salvation by works (at least in part). These folks even seem to have their own personal definition of non-meritorious works. What a mess!

It is by both faith and good works that we are justified before God. (James 2:24).

It is by faith (apart from works) that we are justified/accounted as righteous before.God. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified/accounted as righteous by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Man is justified/accounted as righteous by faith (Romans 4:2-6) and man is justified/shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21, 24) *Perfect Harmony*

Dikaioo Definition
NAS Word Usage - Total: 39
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

What's this "merit" strawman you're always talking about? Good works are preordained by God so where is there any room for merit seeking or even boasting?

Merit in salvation by works is no strawman. If we were saved by both faith AND works, then there would be merit in accomplishing those works because they then become the means by which we would obtain and/or maintain salvation.

Again, Paul is against works of the Law. Our ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago.

Roman Catholics, love to make that argument as well in their efforts to get around the truth and promote works-righteousness. Paul is not only against meriting salvation by works of the law,
but by works in general, works of righteousness, our works etc.. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Again, we are justified by God by faith and good works.

False. (Romans 4:2-6) We are not accounted as righteous by good works but by faith in Jesus Christ alone. We are shown to be righteous by works. Works bare out the justification that already came through faith. Man is saved through faith apart from the merit of works yet genuine faith does not remain apart from the presence of works.

Your actions and efforts are not your work?

Using that logic, you could call anything a work. I got out of bed this morning. That's a work. I checked the mail today. That's a work. I had a thought roll around in my head. That's a work. The Greek word for work is ergon.

ergon: Work, deed, action, task, labor
Original Word: ἔργον
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ergon
Pronunciation: ER-gon
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-gon)
Definition: Work, deed, action, task, labor
Meaning: work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.

Anyways, acknowledging that repent, believe, and confess are actions verbs does equate to salvation by faith and actions.

There is no merit in repent, believe, confess. Changing our mind and believing from the heart unto righteousness, then confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord by the Holy Spirit are not actions that merit salvation. Folks who are mute would remain lost for failing to confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord if that was a work for salvation.

Believing unto righteousness is still an action done by you. That shows that salvation is synergistic.

Through the action involved, we are still trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). Jesus Christ still receives all the merit. There is no room for boasting.

Nope. I am not a Sola Works person. Neither am I for monergism. I believe what the Bible says.

You believe what the Bible says based on your own personal eisegesis and not based on Biblical hermeneutics.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) )

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

It sounds like to me it's all about YOUR presuppositions that override the Bible.

I have called out multiple people over the years on various Christian forum sites for teaching salvation by faith AND WORKS and even though they deny it, their statements speak for themselves. Here are some examples below of such folks:

It is works of obedience that help to save us and just not works of the law or works of merit.

That is still salvation by faith AND works. This person attends the church of Christ (Campbellism) and he told me that man is saved by faith "conjoined" with works. This makes those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life.

We are "initially" saved by grace through faith apart from works, but then afterwards, sanctification (which includes holy living and good works) also plays a part in the salvation process of maintaining our salvation by works.

That is "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door and those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life.

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith includes: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

This Roman Catholic basically redefined faith to "include" works. Salvation by faith "infused" with works and then those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life. Others (including yourself) make the same error and basically end up teaching that we are saved by faith + their own personal definition of non-meritorious works.

I was once in a discussion with a Seventh Day Adventist and he tought that we are saved by grace through faith + obeying the 10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment) . I pointed out to him that he was teaching "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." Of course he denied that, but then afterward contradicted himself by making this statement below:

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

What a mess! (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

 

[MTMattie]

to stay saved?

if this is true. then we better follow the works of the law.

God did not lower his requirments to us. and hold us to a higher standard than he did the jews

No, not to stay saved....

Because it is the right thing to do.

Guess my view is all how I was brought up. I would never walk on by the woman being raped in an alley without at least trying to find someone to help.

But most would likely do just that. After filming the incident for the news or social media.

When my uncle lost his wallet on the streets of NYC, imagine his surprise to get a phone call from a person
who found it and sent it back to him, in Pittsburgh, with everything intact including his money.

You are given life. I feel it only proper to return as good as one can .

You dont want to do good. You see no need. FINE. No one said it was mandatory... but then when the rocks in the road trip you up, just keep on smiling cause few will feel sorry for you or even pick you up

 

[GodsGrace]

In Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers.

Hebrews has two main reasons for having been written:
1. To show Jesus as our example. As we are to "consider" Him.

See Hebrews 3:1
1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
Hebrews 12:3


3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

We are even told not to lose heart and use Jesus as our example....who endured hostility, as the Christian Jews did.
This endurance is the ultimate example of the life of faith.

We are told to endure throughout the NT.


2. The epistle was written to exhort believers.

Hebrews 13:20-22
20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
21 equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
22 But I urge you, brethren, bear with this word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly *.


And what did Paul write?:

Hebrews 13:16-17
16 And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

In every letter of the NT, we are told to do good works.
This is told to BELEIVERS.


You posted Hebrews 3:8-10
Did you notice Hebrews 3:6?

Hebrews 3:6
6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house -whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

There are these IF's in the NT...
all these warnings to hold on...
to be firm...
until the end.

Because he who edures till the end will be saved:


Jesus said:
Matthew 24:13
13But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

As to your verses, Hebrews 3:8-10
There is no talk there of believers but of persons who DISOBEYED God.
Paul is referring to OT times when the Mosaic Covenant was in effect.
The Israelites had to follow THE LAW.
Also, let's remember that both the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant require OBEDIENCE to God.
God always requires obedience.
The New Covenant did not change that.

There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

Agreed....Explained above.

In Jude 1:5, we read - the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Your verse Jude 1:5
God saved the Isaelites out of the land of Egypt.
God DESTROYED those who defected...that did not obey.
They were under The Law...
But we are STILL required to obey God.....nothing has changed in this regard.

And what happened to them and the angels that abandoned their post?
Jude 1:6
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence firm to the end.

Thanks for posting Hebrews 3:6, which I already posted above.
Here it is again:

Hebrews 3:6
6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house -whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

IF we hold fast our confidence, and hope, firm till the end.
As usual, we are taught that we must hold fast until the end.

*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end.

Unfortunately,,,you didn't write the NT.
You cannot REWRITE it....but must accept the wording as it is.

We could be partakers of Christ,,,partakers, present tense....
this is why we must hold fast till the end.

Now what about those faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

You DID state what I thought:
"Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion."

You do realize that this means that we can NEVER be assured of our salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

Right on, you just can't go wrong with Calvinism.

Hi Biblelesson,
I won't go back to check,
but you surely misunderstood something I posted.

I believe the Reformed/Calvinist theological system is not biblical
and I couldn't disagree with it more.

Every single letter of the acronym TULIP is not found in the NT.
And I can agree with NOTHING in Calvin's Institutes or any of the Confession's ultimate outcome.

Just to be clear.

 

[MTMattie]

Right on, you just can't go wrong with Calvinism.

 

[GodsGrace]

I showed very clearly, from logic and Scripture, that is completely false.

Peter sat under Christ's direct ministry and had a fundamental error in doctrine.



My point was extremely clear, how could you possibly miss it.

We don't need Ignatius and Polycarp.

We literally have everything we need in the Bible.

So how come we're here debating good works??

I explained about the time...can't do better than that.
I also mentioned about Peter.

Jesus alone.

You're trusting Jesus?

How do you know about Him?

 

[mailmandan]

Disobedience is unbelief.

We can certainly be in covenant with the LORD and then disobey him.

Sin = disobedience.

We all sin, but we must confess our sin to be forgiven.

If we don’t confess our sin because we refuse to turn away from it then we can indeed become lost.

This is what the teaching about His sheep who became lost is all about.

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

• if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector

 Continued disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief. In regard to the 100 sheep in Luke 15, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self-righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that one of Jesus' sheep who He gave eternal life to lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, (which contradicts John 10:27-28) but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

So, this parable does not teach that this one "sheep" in this case was a saved person who lost their salvation and had to repent and get saved all over again. That is not the point. Context is key. Luke 15:1-2 sets the scene. The religious leaders criticized Jesus for associating with these sinners. Jesus responds with three parables describing how these religious leaders should have reacted when faced with sinners who wish to repent.

Now look what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. Not save those all over again who lost salvation. Jeremiah 50:6 - My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray. Doesn't mean they were saved. The Israelites are His people (chosen people of God) and His sheep physically, even the lost ones.

In regard to confessing our sins, notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

Certain folks seem to misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory of every sin) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin, we are toast!" Who could actually write an exhaustive list of every sin they have ever committed or ever will commit? Sin is not only missing the mark by what we do but also what we fail to do. (James 4:17)

Believers "confess" (Greek - homologeó) speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast with saying that we have no sin or that we have not sinned. (1 John 1:8-10)

In regard to Matthew 18:12-17, if a brother sins against another and continues to refuse to repent and make things right, then the Jewish community of believers is to treat this person as an outsider, as if they were a tax collector or heathen/Gentile. Jesus uses a description of this consequence, by using the examples of tax collectors and heathens/Gentiles, which shows He is talking to His group of Jewish disciples within the context of their Jewish culture. Nothing here about a loss of salvation.

 

[Dizerner]

You're trusting Jesus?

How do you know about Him?

The Holy Spirit, not Ignatius, although I'm sure he may very well have been a fine fellow.

I met Jesus before I even knew a single thing except there was a God who died for my sins.

 

[Dizerner]

So how come we're here debating good works??

Because some people resist what the Bible says...

I don't know if you've ever noticed that fact.