Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Begotten]

What about cows?

Serious question.

Cows are good, it's eating crow is what to avoid. It cant happen here because we are all aways right

Eating crow is a colloquial idiom, used in some English-speaking countries, that means humiliation by admitting having been proven wrong after taking a strong position.

 

[synergy]

yes
that does not mean we need to keep tryign to earn a salvation we could never earn to begin with.

Your mind is stuck on merits and earnings strawmen that you just cannot shake off. You're barking up the wrong tree. Why do you like doing that to yourself?

PS. I thought you were proud because people ran.. so much for that
so much for people running away..

2 Pet 1 says nothing about showing their virtues to others. It does not support your showmanship justification.

 

[synergy]

yes,
and the people of james did not have that one faith.
well when we read what you say and what your arguing for. we can come to no other conclusion.

What I see is that you filter everything through your merit and earnings glasses. That's why you cannot understand what James is trying to say.

The faith is the fath that they people said they had.
not the faith that saves.
if the faith they they said they had is the faith that saved, then you sup[port a licentious gospel
don;t blame me for calling a spade a spade

James distinguishes between the 2 states of the Faith as alive and dead.
You continue to misunderstand James.
That is calling a spade a spade.

lol
Some advise for you
learn some humility
I do not listen to men.. so I am not sure why you would talk about me looking to a scholar..
I just read what you say and interpret what you say..

Again, the fact remains that God is "demonstrative in force" but nobody calls him "that God". Same thing for the Faith.

If you continue to refuse to see both sides of the story then you will always be behind the 8 ball, as you are right now.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

False.

Are you actually going on record that The Faith (ἡ πίστις) of Rom 10:17 is not The Faith (ἡ πίστις) of James 2:14b????

Yes I am going to say that. Because if the faith of james 2: 14 was the same then they would have had works..

"Then the Faith (ἡ πίστις) is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom 10:17)
"Can the Faith (ἡ πίστις) save him?" (James 2:14b)

You are flagrantly denying the obvious.

lol

Your denying the fact.. You think a workless faith (licentiousness ) can save.

Your the one claiming they were saved not me

False.

It is not only faith but the Faith (ἡ πίστις) that James 2:26 is talking about.

"... the Faith (ἡ πίστις) without works is dead" (James 2:26).

I am talking about the faith in James 2: 14 the people james spoke of said they had.

Again, Paul is talking about works of the Law. My ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago. If your circles still practice it then talk to them.

lol.. he did in some passages, he did not in others

I find it amazing you put less of an onus on obedience today then they had in the OT. where the law was the standard.

talk about watering down the law..

You continue to blatantly contradict James when he said the following:

(James 2:24) You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Observation:
This is a battle between the Greek NT and all other NT that, either deliberating or not, failed to properly translate the Greek NT.

No.

He was not talking about eternal justification.

Abraham was saved decades before he offered up his son..

Your stuck on a verse. and you think it proves you right while ignoring so many other passages.;

dude you want to earn salvation, feel free. I will pray for you..

In your personal opinion, but not in Scripture.
Matt: 6:15 says differently.
Matt: 19:21-35 says differently.
Matt: 10:22-32 says differently.
Matt 24:13 says differently.
Luke 12:41-46 says differently.
Rom 11:20-21 says differently.
1 Cor 9:27 says differently.
1 Cor. 15:1-2 says differently.
Col 1:22-23 says differently.
Heb 3:6, 14 says differently.
Heb 6:4-6 says differently.
James 5:19-20 says differently.
2 Pet 2:20-22 says differently.
Rev. 2:10, 25-36, 3:1-5 says differently.

non of them passages say eternal life. of the GIFT of life can be lost

Its a gift. not a reward. If you want to earn it as a gift. You will fail. and you will not receive it.

 

[synergy]

well thank you. You just supported my view. I am blessed

35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.

You love your enemies expecting nothing in return, And you MERIT a reward.. not only a reward but a GREAT REWARD

Salvation is a gift.. how many times do you have to be told?

see. You did what you always do. you highlight the wrong part of the passage, and not the part which would prove you wrong.

There i corrected it for you

Not only did I prove that you can decouple works from merits, but you also spotted that we do receive rewards that supports my view.

Unfortunately, you do what you always do and attach merit to the reward which is unwarranted. Whatever makes you happy.

Yes, But as many as has received him
That's where true saving faith comes in, Otherwise you will not receive it or acknowledge it
I thank God for it every day.
caring for it? I can not make it any better or any worse. it is eternal. it is unbreakable.
I am sorry you feel your gift is breakable..
We do it every day
every day I go to work and work hard to merit my wage
If your obeying to merit salvation.
Then your rejecting grace.
Its called bartering, or a downpayment
God gave me a gift. paid in full.
you want to earn it. feel free. But good luck

Are you seriously taking issue with the word ἀρραβῶνα, translated to "earnest" in English?

That's exactly how Paul characterizes the gift of the Holy Spirit. Paul calls it an ἀρραβῶνα. That's the phase we go through towards the future Marriage of the Lamb.

(2Co 1:22) And He has sealed us and having given the earnest (ἀρραβῶνα) of the Spirit in our hearts.

(2Co 5:5) And He who has worked in us for this same thing is God, who also is giving to us the earnest (ἀρραβῶνα) of the Spirit.

(Eph 1:14) who is the earnest (ἀρραβῶνα) of our inheritance, to the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Actually your ancesters did not kick it. they brought in a different set of laws. and made the same mistake

What laws are those, pray tell.

Gal 3 is just as relevent to you as it was the jews. You both make the same mistake

I keep telling you we kicked that habit (works of the Law) 2000 years ago. You refuse to believe reality because a good part of your presuppositions will come crashing down.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

A comment: To no one in particular.

Works of the law are no longer for us.

But do we need to do works.

to stay saved?

if this is true. then we better follow the works of the law.

God did not lower his requirments to us. and hold us to a higher standard than he did the jews

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Your mind is stuck on merits and earnings strawmen that you just cannot shake off. You're barking up the wrong tree. Why do you like doing that to yourself?

My mind is stuck on the fact salvation is a gift. paid for by the blood of christ

And you are mocking that gift by trying to earn it

2 Pet 1 says nothing about showing their virtues to others. It does not support your showmanship justification.

so this is your response to your arrogant post about people running from you because we can not handle you.

 

[synergy]

No Paul was not

Paul was not what? A Yankees fan?

There was no law in Abrahams day

and?.....

eph is not based on the law. but on works.. As in titus 3 any good deed.

Edit by Admin 1b.No abusive, insulting, or derogatory language. (Colossians 3:5, 8)

lol. you have paul and james apposed to each other
good luck

Nope.
Paul is talking about works of the Law in the verses you selected.
James is talking about good works.
Where is the opposition?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What I see is that you filter everything through your merit and earnings glasses. That's why you cannot understand what James is trying to say.

strawman and unresponsive.

Because that is what you are doing

James distinguishes between the 2 states of the Faith as alive and dead.

No.

he diistinguishes between his faith. that saved him

and a person who claimed or said they had faith. that could not save them, because it was dead.

You continue to misunderstand James.
That is calling a spade a spade.

Whatever dude.

Your saying licentious people can be saved

Your pitting james and paul against each others.

I reject both possibilities

a licentious person can say he has faith all day. they are liars, and they are not saved and will not be unless they repent

Again, the fact remains that God is "demonstrative in force" but nobody calls him "that God". Same thing for the Faith.

illogical and doe snot prove your point

Because the people who claimed they knew God did not. nor did they trust him, or they would have had works.

Again a licentious gospel is a false gospel.;. and that particular type of faith can not save

If you continue to refuse to see both sides of the story then you will always be behind the 8 ball, as you are right now.

Your the one who is not seeing both sides. Your stuck on one verse.

Go ahead, your so confused you have licentious people being saved.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Paul was not what? A Yankees fan?

and?.....

talking about works of the law in romans 4, In eph 2 and titus 3

You're incoherent now. Are you ok?

Nope.
Paul is talking about works of the Law in the verses you selected.
James is talking about good works.
Where is the opposition?

No he was not

talk about using your belief system to interpret the word.

Romans was written to a gentile church.

There was no law when Abrham was alive. so no one would even consider paul was talking about works of the law.

He was talking about works of merit.. which may include works of the law. or may not.

 

[JLB]

faith means trust. to be assured
Belief can be in different stages. I may believe yet not trust. I may believe but my trust lies elswhere
trust. literally means faith.. I can believe and not trust

The biblical definition of faith is:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 11:1

Faith is a noun.


Please stop making up the definitions of biblical words and term by which you attempt to redefine what scripture teaches.



Trust is a verb, it’s what we do.


that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:12

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

For God so loved the world. that he gave his only begottsn son that whoever believes in him, shall not perish. but has everlasting life

Abraham had true faith. he was confident, he was assured.. he Knew beyond and contrary to hope That god would keep his word.

this is what faith is

I have then when it comes to Gods promise to me

I see no evidence in anyone who says we must merit salvation or we will lose it who is confident in God and his promises

they are confident in self and how well they can obey,

for by grace we have been saved through faith

faith - ho pisitis (literally the faith)

to trust, to be persuaded, to have confidence in, to believe

faith is the substance of things hope for.

I have a hope. its called eternal life. Thats whyat my faith is in, Gods promise

in the hope of eternal life, which God, who can not lie, promised before time began.

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

there we go again, No justification by works.. Not by good deeds (works of righteousness) which we have done, buyt by his mercy.

and what is the hope our faith is in.

eternal life

those who say we can lose eternal life. remove the basis of faith and our hope.

 

[synergy]

Yes I am going to say that. Because if the faith of james 2: 14 was the same then they would have had works..

Are you saying that there are 2 Faiths in James 2:14?

lol
Your denying the fact.. You think a workless faith (licentiousness ) can save.
Your the one claiming they were saved not me

Nope. I never said a "Yes" so you're misrepresenting me again. It looks like it makes you feel good to misrepresent me.

I am talking about the faith in James 2: 14 the people james spoke of said they had.

So how many the Faith are there?

lol.. he did in some passages, he did not in others
I find it amazing you put less of an onus on obedience today then they had in the OT. where the law was the standard.
talk about watering down the law..

So now you're a Law advocate?

No.
He was not talking about eternal justification.

Then what was he talking about? Temporary justification? Tell us about your non-eternal justification.

Abraham was saved decades before he offered up his son..

False. He was saved where we're all saved. At the Cross. Nowhere else.

Your stuck on a verse. and you think it proves you right while ignoring so many other passages.;
dude you want to earn salvation, feel free. I will pray for you..

You're stuck on merits and earnings for some reason. You just can't see past those terms.

 

[Dizerner]

eternal life is eternal

If eternal life was eternal you would be born with it necessarily.

you teach conditional life

You teach conditional eternal life based on one free will choice.

I teach conditional eternal life based on more than one free will choice.

We both teach condition eternal life based on the principle of free will choice.

thats now found in scripture as far as our eternity goes.

Jesus did not say whoever believes in me... obeys my commands...

Please re-read the Gospels.

You may be very surprised to see what Jesus actually said...

But why do you call Me`Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? (Lk. 6:46 NKJ)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If eternal life was eternal you would be born with it necessarily.

Not necisarily. Because I do nto have it until I trust him and recieve it

technically no one will die.. the question is, will we be born a second time, or remain dead in our flesh

You teach conditional eternal life based on one free will choice.

I can not boast in saving myself however.

Those who say salvation can lost. have no choice but to boast.

I teach conditional eternal life based on more than one free will choice.

then you believe salvation is eternal. and not conditional and can never be lost.

We both teach condition eternal life based on the principle of free will choice.

yawn

Please re-read the Gospels.

You may be very surprised to see what Jesus actually said...

But why do you call Me`Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? (Lk. 6:46 NKJ)

I do the things he says

why do you falsely accuse me of not doing those things.

 

[synergy]

My mind is stuck on the fact salvation is a gift. paid for by the blood of christ

I agree.

And you are mocking that gift by trying to earn it

There you go again, attaching merit and earnings to just about everything I say. You seriously should shake off that habit of yours.

so this is your response to your arrogant post about people running from you because we can not handle you.

They don't put their money where their mouth is and prove that they believe that James is promoting showmanship justification, by showing their justification to everyone in this forum.

 

[Doug Brents]

non of them passages say eternal life. of the GIFT of life can be lost

We weren't discussing "eternal life". We were discussing them being His sheep or not. These passages all state that someone was once His sheep but is no longer.

Its a gift. not a reward. If you want to earn it as a gift. You will fail. and you will not receive it.

Gifts can, and frequently do, have conditions upon their reception. There is no condition upon their purchase (the purchase ALWAYS comes before the receiving of them), but the purchase does not automatically result in the reception of the gift by the giftee.
God purchased salvation for us with Jesus' blood. But salvation is not received by everyone, even though Jesus died for everyone (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2). So there are conditions that each individual must meet before the gift is received by them.

 

[Dizerner]

why do you falsely accuse me of not doing those things.

That's not what I accused you of.

Please strive to be more honest in your interactions here, you are showing signs of not caring.

When a valid logical point is met by "yawn" you should consider that's a sign of cognitive dissonance and self-deception.

 

[Red Baker]

What about cows?

Serious question.

Just like swine's, they were created to be taken and eaten, if you desire to do so. We are not Hindus, who goes to Burger King and thrown the meat away and eat the rest of so-called hamburger fearing they just might eat one of their dead relatives!

2nd Peter 2:12​

“But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;”

​

 

[synergy]

strawman and unresponsive.
Because that is what you are doing

Huh? I'm not the one attaching merit and earnings to almost all my responses.

No.

You don't think that the Faith can have 2 states: alive and dead?

he diistinguishes between his faith. that saved him
and a person who claimed or said they had faith. that could not save them, because it was dead.

He says "can the Faith save him?" The answer is No. Why? Because it's dead.
That proves that the Faith has 2 states.
You alluded to it yourself. You mentioned "it was dead".

Whatever dude.
Your saying licentious people can be saved
Your pitting james and paul against each others.
I reject both possibilities
a licentious person can say he has faith all day. they are liars, and they are not saved and will not be unless they repent

Where do you see James talking to immoral unprincipled licentious persons????
If that was the case then he would talk about their immorality like Paul did to the Corinthians.
You're switching the audience in your desperate attempt to find something to support your case.

illogical and doe snot prove your point
Because the people who claimed they knew God did not. nor did they trust him, or they would have had works.
Again a licentious gospel is a false gospel.;. and that particular type of faith can not save

Again, the fact remains that God is "demonstrative in force" but nobody calls him "that God". Same thing for the Faith.

Your the one who is not seeing both sides. Your stuck on one verse.
Go ahead, your so confused you have licentious people being saved.

Your attempt to change James' audience will not work.