Grace is a gift of God. If it is not, it still has to be from God. So much easier to say grace is a gift from God. Ephesians speaks of Salvation as the gift of God, and it is by grace. Being by grace makes it an action, because it is BY grace. Through faith makes faith more of a conduit, not an action.
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Ah, so you believe people can save themselves, or that there are those out there who do not require Jesus at all to be saved, but can simply waltz into heaven. Nice. What total depravity says is that every part of man is sinful. Every part of man has been corrupted by sin. There is no righteousness to be found in man outside of Christ/salvation. They are totally depraved, and as such incapable of saving themselves. This is what Jesus is saying when in response to "then who can be saved", He said "With man it is impossible..." full stop on man. Impossible. Not improbable, or may not happen. IMPOSSIBLE. However, "WITH GOD" it becomes possible.
So you can stop dying on that hill then. You don't need Ephesians 2:8-9, you have the whole Bible. (The point I am making). TULIP has a lot of problems. (See RC Sproul on TULIP). I am calvinistic and do not consider or call myself a Calvinist. I consider and call myself a Christian. My beliefs align with Calvinism. However, what good is that if one is going to twist scripture to support it instead of just using what God has already given us in scripture?
Um... no. Regenerated. That is where the dead spirit of man, deaf and unmoving to the word of God, because, well it is dead, is brought to life by the power of God unto understanding.
brightfame52
Active Member
@armylngst
This is a foolish unlearned comment
To me you saying Gospel Truth has a lot of problems
I m a Christian
Didnt you just say Tulip has alot of problems ?
You tell me. Yet I know the Truths of Tulip are grounded in scripture.
This is a foolish unlearned comment
To me you saying Gospel Truth has a lot of problems
I m a Christian
Didnt you just say Tulip has alot of problems ?
You tell me. Yet I know the Truths of Tulip are grounded in scripture.
If you have a complete failure of understanding, a complete breakdown of rationality, just ask me to explain. Ephesians 2:8-9 is not required for defense of Calvinism. Defense against works based salvation, sure, but not of Calvinism. You have a whole Bible at your disposal, but you are going to cut out two verses and throw out the rest? You are dying on a mole hill, while others stand on mountains.
Well, I do believe there is a gospel truth. If there isn't, please explain.
Really? (I'm being sarcastic) I never doubted outside of I don't know your heart. (And God was clear that no one can.)
TULIP has problems. Calvin's teachings, not so much. The five remonstrances has issues, the most interesting being that the authors actually wrote originally that they did not remember what Arminius taught about eternal security. Perhaps it is time to rewrite Tulip using RC Sproul's well thought out, and explained rendering of each point. It explains a lot, while removing some of the roadblocks people faced when dealing with the five points. Making it an acronym really constrains ones ability to properly articulate each point. Limited atonement being the hardest one to get people to understand and accept.
That is debatable. (not in a bad way). It is better just to learn what Calvin actually taught. If you look at some of the things he wrote, he was a master genius. These arguments you see with people saying that Calvin teaches that God created evil, he deftly handled the same exact arguments (arguably) long ago. He also showed the beliefs of those people asking the questions, and those beliefs that fueled the questions were undeniably heretical and blasphemous.
brightfame52
Active Member
You can debate it all you want but t u l i p those truths are Gospel
Paul said that if he, an angel, or anyone else preaches a different gospel, they are to be accursed of God. You need to grow past TULIP. I didn't say you need to remove, or deny it, but grow past it. It sounds like if someone who really knew what they were talking about and was anti-TULIP, they could damage you greatly. I will tell you, even as poorly formed, TULIP are truths. But you are sitting before the biggest hosted buffet in the universe, and you are insulting the chef by only taking five bites. Let go of Ephesians 2:8-9 because you have the rest of scripture at your back. Ephesians 2:8-9 neither supports or hurts your position. Why? It isn't dealing with your position. The sole message of Ephesians 2:8-9 is that salvation is not of works. Not in any way, shape or form. What does Calvinism say about salvation and works? Salvation is not of works. So in that, it neither supports or hurts your position when someone points out that faith isn't the gift that isn't of works. It doesn't matter. If you want to go deeper into it, then you have to figure out just what faith is in the context of the verse. It should come up as something that is not the gift of God, but is also not of works, but is connected to salvation that is the gift of God. I'll tell you that this is one/two verses, and it isn't worth the effort of getting caught up in. You know the truth, and you need to understand that the rest of scripture knows as well. Don't get stuck up on it. I didn't get stuck up on it when the preacher laid it all out. Why? I realized that even if the verse isn't the pro-calvinist verse they say it is, it is at worst... neutral. It doesn't change anything. Faith is still not of works, we have the rest of scripture that attests to that.
Just an aside. Where I am going right now is back to the beginning. Why? That's the foundation of all that comes after. What's the foundation? A proper understanding of just who God is. Everything springs forth from that. God's nature, God's sovereignty, etc. It is deep. I am finding it important to make sure we have the proper understanding, since it also shapes our perceptions.
Not at all. I have never made such a ridiculous claim.
What total depravity says is that the spirit God forms in a man (Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7) is a dead spirit. What total depravity says is that the Holy Spirit of God is completely, totally, unable to communicate effectively to one not born again. What total depravity says is not so much a weakness of the spirit of man as it is a weakness of the Spirit of God. What total depravity says is that God created this world mostly for the purpose of relegating most human beings to hell, saving only a few that He had previously identified, chosen and repaired the dead spirit He originally gave them.
Please tell us what the reason is that God wanted to make all those human beings that He had previously identified and chosen to send to hell. You can't do that because it is simply not true.
Why do you think God made all the spirits of man deaf and unmoving to His word? The fact is that God didn't do that and if you think He did then you have a really disgusting and heretical view of God.
brightfame52
Active Member
@armylngst
I know, and folk need to take earnest heed of that, especially since they the Truths of Tulip, necessary Truths of the Gospel of Gods Grace.
I know, and folk need to take earnest heed of that, especially since they the Truths of Tulip, necessary Truths of the Gospel of Gods Grace.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
no one said otherwise
Nor was I. Can you respond to my comment please?
the answer is no to all
But that does not resolve the issue.. It is a sidestep.
Yes. All have sinned.
that does not mean All can not understand and come to faith..
Stop telling me what I need to understand.
That is proud and arrogant. I understand what I need to.
If yuo can show me wrong. do so. stop with the nonsense
Yes I agree 100% He foreordained who? Us. Who is us? Is it not those who come to faith?
Fatalism sure does question his integrity
Its obvious you have no desire to discuss
Good luck, I will not be talked down to. when your ready to discuss let me know
Until then, take your pride elsewhere
You may want to learn what Total Depravity actually says, instead of blaspheming the Holy Spirit with your false witness. (Please see what Jesus had to say about that.) The Holy Spirit has no weakness. Your statement comes from not knowing what you are talking about, and hence borders on, if it isn't, straight up blasphemy. Total Depravity is also know as Total Inability, which is actually something Jesus spoke about. The disciples were shocked with what Jesus said about the young rich ruler, and in their heart gripping astonishment they asked "Then who can be saved?" As though they realized that by what Jesus just said, no one can be saved. Jesus agreed, to a point, in that He answered "With man it is impossible." Now, when a subject matter expert, in this case the Creator of the Universe, without whom nothing was created, tells you something is impossible, He means impossible. Jesus just told the disciples it is impossible for anyone to be saved. However, while Jesus slams the door in the face of man (does that upset you?), the door is open for God. "but with God, all things are possible." So please, learn what total depravity is actually saying. I don't consider myself a calvinist, but I am calvinistic, and you aren't even CLOSE to what total depravity means. The Holy Spirit can talk to anyone. Now, whether the person is capable of understanding, that's between God and that man. Paul is the one who tells us that the natural man is incapable of understanding the spiritual things. It doesn't say that God is incapable of communicating it. Why do you go straight to attacking God to defend whatever your beliefs are. If you do that, you have already lost.
That is not what total depravity says. With this you make it openly obvious that no one has taken the time to teach you properly about who God is. The very foundation of a believer is built on who God is, and if you don't know, then you get what you wrote above. Why did God create the world, and why is everything happening right now under His complete control? He felt like it. He is God. He can do whatever He pleases. Tell me, does this sound like something your God would do?
"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [a]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [c]whoever receives the mark of his name.”
First of all, the statement above is blasphemous in that it does not speak at all to total depravity, and it casts aspersion upon God. No surprise though. Having read the books with Calvin's arguments against people like you, he deftly pointed out their heresies and straight up blasphemy of God. Was there even an iota of fear behind your eyes when you made your accusations? I mean, the blasphemy has been pointed out. Was there any fear of God behind your eyes? I do my best to be VERY careful when God comes in the equation.
Why did God create this world knowing what would happen? He felt like it. It is all for His glory, right down to crushing sinful man, and, as above with some, tormenting them that the smoke of their torment is visible forever and ever. Why? HE... IS... GOD. He felt like it. As Creator, He chose some to "foreordain to the adoption of chilren", and not everyone. That is HIS right as God, and as the offended party. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God chose to send some to hell. How did Jesus talk about it? Narrow is the gate, and narrow is the road that leads to life, and few that find it. What about the rest? They are walking, under their own power, on the broad way that leads to death/hell. Where does it say that God forced them to do that? That God made them do that? Where? Again, the prophecy says that each has gone their own way. That is, under their own power. God isn't there pushing them.
You really do need to learn about God properly. It is the very foundation from which a proper understanding of this world in general requires. I'm back looking into it again, and it is very deep. Perhaps consider AW Pink and his books on the sovereignty of God. A knowledge of this is greatly lacking today in the church.
Consider what Jesus Himself said:
Matthew 13
" 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And [d]in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘[e]You shall keep on listening, [f]but shall not understand;
And [g]you shall keep on looking, [h]but shall not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their heart, and return,
And I would heal them.’"
Jesus gave this prophecy as to why He speaks to them in parables, and the state of the people He was preaching to. For if they were to see, hear, and understand, then God would heal them. It was a judgment and a mercy. If you can't understand why it is a mercy, then you do not know/understand God.
Here are some questions I am absolutely certain you cannot answer. Why does God have to save anyone? Why does He have to make it so they can hear and understand? WHO said God has to do that? (you?) Who are you to judge God?
In response to your question, well, it is kind of obvious that you don't understand what you are talking about if you think that is a proper question in ANY context. If God is the Creator, and we are the created, and we offend God, does he have to ask you to do anything? Why can't he make the spirits of men deaf and unmoving to His word? Who are you to tell Him that He isn't allowed, on your command? Adam did that to man by His sin, when God said that the moment man sins they will die. The spirit inside died, and as such, man is incapable of hearing and understanding God outside of what God allows. Paul speaks to this when He says that the natural man is incapable of understanding spiritual truth.
That is not even close to a final answer, because everything is deep. There is nothing shallow in Christianity, unless you are a nametag Christian who doesn't know anything short of talking points. If you want to understand Calvinism, don't run to TULIP. That won't help. Go to the source. Did deeper and you will come to understand what TULIP was distilled from.
I know what Total Depravity actually says. I didn't blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I didn't claim that God , through the Holy Spirit was incapable of communicating with the unregenerate, but that is what Total Depravity says. It says that unless one has been elected and born again, i.e., saved, he cannot understand. That places the onus on God, not man
I have probably studied about total depravity as much as you, but no matter.
No one who actually knows that would every believe the injustice implied by the doctrine of total depravity.
It is the doctrine of total depravity that is blasphemous because it casts dispersion upon God.
It is not about what God knew would happen. It is about what Total Depravity says God would do, namely, send human beings to hell for reasons that they have absolutely no control over.
Say that again, but this time speak to the one in the mirror when you say that.
You really need to spend some time studying that passage. It describes that it is they not God who is to blame for their lack of seeing and hearing. But Calvinism places that squarely on God, not man.
Doug Brents
Active Member
God's love is not synonymous with salvation. God loved us even when we were still sinners (unsaved), so being loved by Him does not equal being saved.
Further, salvation can never be taken from you, but you can willingly give it up. And giving it up does not mean that you were never saved in the first place.
Obadiah
Active Member
Why would anyone give up the best thing that ever happened to them? If they were truly saved?
Christians who are insecure about where they stand with God have a difficult time sharing the love of God with others.
And love has every thing to do with salvation.
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
John 3:16.
Christians who are insecure about where they stand with God have a difficult time sharing the love of God with others.
And love has every thing to do with salvation.
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
John 3:16.
brightfame52
Active Member
@Doug Brents
Actually it is, in that it ensures Salvation to them He Loved, and Loves. His Love for them, Great Love at that, quickens them even while dead in sin and unbelief and rebellion Eph 2:2-5
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Now understand, this is only for the Chosen in Christ from Eph 1:4, however His Great Love for them, ensures their Salvation by Grace even when they are in a most deplorable condition by nature and in disobedience/unbelief.
Actually it is, in that it ensures Salvation to them He Loved, and Loves. His Love for them, Great Love at that, quickens them even while dead in sin and unbelief and rebellion Eph 2:2-5
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Now understand, this is only for the Chosen in Christ from Eph 1:4, however His Great Love for them, ensures their Salvation by Grace even when they are in a most deplorable condition by nature and in disobedience/unbelief.
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