Excellent Discussion on OSAS

amen, 100%

Understanding you are judged by Sin, condemned and headed to hell is much different than being bound to sin.
Bound to sin is the end result of having sinned. It is just how it is. We are incapable of being righteous.
Man is depraved , amen, But remember, the gentile who did not have the law. Prety much still obeyed many things..
We aren't talking about legalism here.
So God planned out all the evil we see in the world today? and all the evil from day 1?
These are the kinds of questions that come up when one doesn't understand the sovereignty of God or just who God is. The questions to oppose this is, was God surprised? Was God caught off guard? Does God have control or not? Again, when one doesn't have a grasp on who God is.
If man has no choice. If grace is so irrestable. man would never reject it.. (they did not have a choice) then in reality,. I think we are robots.
You have to look at the concept of scripture. You need to remember that we sinned against God. We didn't sin against the universe. We didn't sin against some universal law that both we and God have to obey. We sinned against God. So, who has the final word? God does. Man, ultimately, has no choice. Again, however, that is outside of our ability to grasp/comprehend. It is easier to look at life as we see it, which is we have a choice. If God comes up to you in the end and says "GET OUT!!!" is there anything you can say against Him?
is this not Satan's lie from the beginning. that God does not love, he can not be trusted?
You need to understand that the discussion (such as in my comments written above) are all behind the curtain.
No, it says we were predestined to become Gods children.

3 Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved,
7 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,
8 in which He did abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,
10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;
Correct.

But God also has to restore his integrity. Satan made us doubt Gods love and his integrity. saying God is not to be trusted. He is holding back from you. He knows you will receive something if you eat.

If God holds back the ability of people to even be given the opportunity to be saved. then that really does not restore Gods integrity does it?
God's integrity has never been in question. This shows, again, a lack of knowledge as to just who God is. God doesn't have to give ANYONE the opportunity to be saved. Who, apparently besides you, can stand and say that God has shown himself to not have integrity? What affect can we have on God by saying that we are saying God has no integrity? NONE, because it isn't true. God is absolutely not at all affected by such things, because He knows. It's like a spiteful child saying, if you don't do this, then that makes you a big meanie. It doesn't, which is why children generally didn't win in the past, though parents are more pushovers today.
Saying he loves some and puts them above others. while not even offering love to others. while God tells us to love everyone.. again, destroys Gods integrity, as it tells us to do something he refuses to do.
That is completely irrational. You have just made yourself the judge of God. Who are you to put yourself above God and tell God what He can and cannot do? Who stands above God that you can run to them and say, but, but, but God told us to do this, but He won't do it Himself. WHO??? Are you beginning to see the position God holds? Should you go to prison for telling your child to go to bed at 6PM while you refuse and go to bed at midnight instead? That you tell them they have to be polite, while you aren't, which is, at times, an adults prerogative? Notice the difference? They are child, you are adult. Well, we are created and He is the Creator. We are human, He is... eternal God and Creator of all.
Saying he has the right to do what he wants. i agree.

But does he really do what you have suggested here?
Most probably, yes. And we have no say in the matter.
 
I stopped you there because you bear false witness to make a point.
The statement I made is rational because I defined it afterwards. Deal with the definition, and you will find that your stance is incorrect. Why? You say that salvation is the gift, but then you step way outside of that to say it is faith. For BY grace you have been saved (that is an action) through faith (that is not an action, but a conduit), and that not of yourselves (salvation is not by ourselves), it (salvation) is a gift of God, not of works lest anyman shouldst boast. Hence it is not works based faith... I mean, works based salvation.

I am not arguing against Calvinism, but saying this verse is not speaking of faith as a gift. If you read the rest of the Bible, the Calvinist stance is clearly present. Hence these two verses (or one verse, depending on how much of a stickler you want to be) is not a hill anyone needs to die on.
 
Heb 11: "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

You are going to do something !!!!!
You are skimming the very surface. You have to go way deeper. There is a lot more to it then is covered in quote mining.
 
(Psalms 51:17) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.


The Bible does not provide "strange ideas". A contrite heart God will never despise. We do have to repent, believe in Christ, and trust God if we are ever to be saved by God. Calvinists might say that you must do absolute nothing but that is incorrect. We must believe in Christ.
Calvinists do not say that. I will say that I believe he said that we cannot do those things if God does not act. Given what Jesus said, which you seem to deny.
 
God acted on Paul on Paul's way to Damascus. That wasn't long ago for Paul.
That was not something that Paul couldn't do.

I didn't deny that God continues to be involved today. We do not need to wait upon God to do anything before we can believe in Him. He has already done all that is needed for that. And to be saved, belief in God, i.e., faith is the key.
 
The statement I made is rational because I defined it afterwards. Deal with the definition, and you will find that your stance is incorrect. Why? You say that salvation is the gift, but then you step way outside of that to say it is faith. For BY grace you have been saved (that is an action) through faith (that is not an action, but a conduit), and that not of yourselves (salvation is not by ourselves), it (salvation) is a gift of God, not of works lest anyman shouldst boast. Hence it is not works based faith... I mean, works based salvation.

I am not arguing against Calvinism, but saying this verse is not speaking of faith as a gift. If you read the rest of the Bible, the Calvinist stance is clearly present. Hence these two verses (or one verse, depending on how much of a stickler you want to be) is not a hill anyone needs to die on.
You bear false witness to make a point.
 
The statement I made is rational because I defined it afterwards. Deal with the definition, and you will find that your stance is incorrect. Why? You say that salvation is the gift, but then you step way outside of that to say it is faith. For BY grace you have been saved (that is an action) through faith (that is not an action, but a conduit), and that not of yourselves (salvation is not by ourselves), it (salvation) is a gift of God, not of works lest anyman shouldst boast. Hence it is not works based faith... I mean, works based salvation.

I am not arguing against Calvinism, but saying this verse is not speaking of faith as a gift. If you read the rest of the Bible, the Calvinist stance is clearly present. Hence these two verses (or one verse, depending on how much of a stickler you want to be) is not a hill anyone needs to die on.
I truly believe that GRACE is the gift. It’s our Almighty God’s unmerited favor towards believers who love Him (because He first loved us). “Amazing GRACE how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.”

s e l a h
 
That was not something that Paul couldn't do.
Sure, Paul could have won an oscar for knocking himself off his donkey and saying God did it.
I didn't deny that God continues to be involved today. We do not need to wait upon God to do anything before we can believe in Him. He has already done all that is needed for that. And to be saved, belief in God, i.e., faith is the key.
I didn't say that we need to wait on God, Jesus did. I'm not arguing with Jesus. Jesus said in answer to, "Who then can be saved" with no one. I mean with "with man it is mostly improbable..." No. He said "with man it is impossible". Not at all possible. Not remotely. However... while that is full stop for man, He followed up with, "but with God, all things are possible." What you don't understand about this is that God gave the reason why no one is righteous, and why no one seeks after God. They have all gone their own way. Which means, their own way, for each and every one of us, is away from God.
 
Then what do calvinists say? That we should do nothing, be inert, and wait for the zapping?
I can't be sure, as I am calvinistic. When Calvin preached, according to historians, he preached to convince/persuade people. You can say, oooh, that means he wasn't a Calvinist. No. The final result is still in God's hands. No one has a roll call sheet of who is elect. So you preach to persuade, and God does the rest in accordance with His will, not ours.
 
Sure, Paul could have won an oscar for knocking himself off his donkey and saying God did it.

I didn't say that we need to wait on God, Jesus did. I'm not arguing with Jesus. Jesus said in answer to, "Who then can be saved" with no one. I mean with "with man it is mostly improbable..." No. He said "with man it is impossible". Not at all possible. Not remotely. However... while that is full stop for man, He followed up with, "but with God, all things are possible." What you don't understand about this is that God gave the reason why no one is righteous, and why no one seeks after God. They have all gone their own way. Which means, their own way, for each and every one of us, is away from God.
You and your Total Depravity! There is almost nothing that has corrupted God's word so much as the false doctrine of Total Depravity. Total Depravity presents God as incapable of communicating with the unregenerate. Absolutely ridiculous. God has given all that is needed in His revelation, the Bible. Read it or hear it and believe.
 
I can't be sure, as I am calvinistic. When Calvin preached, according to historians, he preached to convince/persuade people. You can say, oooh, that means he wasn't a Calvinist. No. The final result is still in God's hands. No one has a roll call sheet of who is elect. So you preach to persuade, and God does the rest in accordance with His will, not ours.
Have you been zapped?
 
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