Doug Brents
Active Member
God loved the whole world, not just the "whosoever" that believes/has faith in Him.
But the whole world will not be saved, only the "whosoever" that believes/has faith in Him.
So His love is NOT synonymous with salvation.
Excellent Discussion on OSAS
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But the whole world will not be saved, only the "whosoever" that believes/has faith in Him.
So His love is NOT synonymous with salvation.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Salvation cannot be taken from you. But you can turn your back on it and lose it. That is what apostasy is, and 2 Thes 2:3 says that there must be an apostasy before the Lord returns.
You questioned my understanding of what happened at the Cross. So let's hear what you think happened at the cross.
I agree with you, in the sense that just because God loves us, doesn’t mean we are somehow automatically saved.
However we are saved because He loves us. IOW’s it was His great love towards us that motivated Him to send His Son into the world to die for us, and there fore we will be saved if we believe.
Yes, this principle is seen in the parable of the sower as a teaching, and is seen prophetically in Matthew 24.
Enduring under persecution until the end and therefore not turning away from Christ is very real.
Thanks for the Scriptures posted for examination. I would ask, "to understand someone's message, like Paul for instance, would we not want to consider his whole teaching on any given matter?
So please bear with me for just a minute. Let's post more of Paul's words on this topic, and see if we can discern what he means.
12 Let not sin (Transgression of God's Commandments) therefore "reign" in your mortal body, that ye should "obey it" in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither "yield ye" your members (This would be our feet/walk, what we look at, what we think about, what comes out of our mouth, Yes?) as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: (So how does the Bible define Sin?) but "yield yourselves" unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members (This would be our feet/walk, what we look at, what we think about, what comes out of our mouth, Yes?) as "instruments of righteousness" unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
So what does Paul mean here. "not under the Law"? Didn't Paul teach you and I that
Eph. 2: 1 And you hath he quickened, who "were dead in trespasses and sins"; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
So then, if I'm dead in Trespasses and Sins, am I not "Under the Law"? doesn't the Law say, "The wages of Sin is death", or in another place, "the soul that sins shall die"? But these men Paul speaks to have repented and turned to God, Yes? They have been forgiven their past sins, and are no longer "Dead in trespasses and sins". They are no longer "under the Law" that held them captive to "Death". Sin/death no longer has dominion "OVER" them. They are no longer "UNDER" this Law.
So now Paul asks them the question that you posted.
15 What then? shall we sin, (continue in tresspasses and sins, continue to transgress God's Laws) because we are not under the law, (Dead in Tresspasses and Sins) but under grace? (Alive from the Dead) God forbid.
Isn't Paul saying, NO ProDeo and Studyman! we shall not continue in Sin, just because we are no longer Dead in trespasses and sins, but alive by the Grace of God?
And now Paul goes on to explain why this is.
16 Know ye not, (ProDeo and Studyman,) that to whom ye "yield yourselve" servants to obey, "his servants ye are" to whom "ye obey"; whether of sin (Still) unto death, or "of obedience" unto righteousness?
Isn't Paul saying that if I still "yield my members" as instruments of unrighteousness, (This would be our feet/walk, what we look at, what we think about, what comes out of our mouth, Yes?) that this behavior still brings death? That if I yield myself to obey the doctrines and philosophies of this world's religious system, who clearly transgresses God's Commandments by their own traditions, I fall back "under the Law" and I am again, "dead in Sins and Trespasses".
but Paul points out the difference between the Body of the Christ "of the bible", and "the course of this world".
17 But God be thanked, that ye were "the servants of sin", but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. (That we Yield ourselves to God, and our body as instruments of Righteousness unto God)
18 Being then made free from sin, "ye became" "the servants of righteousness".
My friend, don't listen to this world's religions. They are seductive, lots of people walk in their path, and "many" who "come in Christ's Name" promote their traditions. But if you are really seeking to know God, read the Scriptures for yourself, and you will find what we found today, that being "under the law" doesn't mean "Yielding oneself a servant to obey God", it means held captive to sins and trespasses.
We were taught this by this world's religions since our youth. But if you you read the bible for yourself, in faith and obedience, you will find that it was the Same Spirit of Christ who taught in the Law and Prophets, as it was in the Jesus "of the Bible" who exposed the corrupt preachers who HE called in Matt. 5, "Them of old time".
Consider your referenced scripture above.
Matt. 5: 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Now this world's religious system has preached to you and me since our youth, that Jesus is talking about God and Moses, when HE says "them of Old Time". And that HE is "Expanding" or bring other laws that God and Moses didn't teach about. This is not true. He is speaking about the Preachers who led God's People astray, by omitting that weightier matters of the Law, matters HE inspired to be written, but was rejected by the preachers of old time.
He is renewing His Teaching that the "Them of old time" had omitted;
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Consider:
Lev. 19: 17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
In every case in Matt. 5, when Jesus says, "but I say", you will find HIS same teaching that HE gave to us, as reported by Moses and the Prophets.
If you are truly seeking to know the God of the Bible, do the work and SEEK Him, not through the internet, or popular religious sects of this world, but the the Holy scriptures that Paul said were trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".
MTMattie
Active Member
Boy, I personally dont see it. The "proper" interpretation that tells Nick that a physical birth is not what He was talking about. ..... and I do not know how flesh fits with it either, for he uses water and spirit immediately followed by flesh and spirit.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
Notice... Jesus did not directly answer Nicks question.
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Now... we do know the importance of being born with the Spirit...
8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Yet the Pharisee Nicodemus still did not understand
I find the explanation in the Got Questions of this, especially of the water end to be clear.
Even considering it promotes such a predestined idea of beliefs.
bolding is mine.
What does it mean to be born of water (John 3:5)?
AnswerIn John 3, Jesus uses the phrase “born of water” in answer to Nicodemus’s question about how to enter the kingdom of heaven. He told Nicodemus that he “must be born again” (John 3:3). Nicodemus questioned how such a thing could happen when he was a grown man. Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5).
Being “born of the Spirit” is easily interpreted—salvation involves a new life that only the Holy Spirit can produce (cf. 2 Corinthians 3:6). But there are a couple different schools of thought on what Jesus meant when He said, “born of water.” One perspective is that “born of water” refers to physical birth. Unborn babies float in fluid in the amniotic sac for nine months. When the time for birth arrives, the amniotic sac bursts, and the baby is born in a rush of “water,” entering the world as a new creature. This birth parallels being “born of the Spirit,” as a similar new birth occurs within our hearts (2 Corinthians 5:17). A person once-born has physical life; a person twice-born has eternal life (John 3:15–18, 36; 17:3; 1 Peter 1:23). Just as a baby contributes no effort to the birth process—the work is done by the mother—so it is with spiritual birth. We are merely the recipients of God’s grace as He gives us new birth through His Spirit (Ephesians 2:8–9). According to this view, Jesus was using a teaching technique He often employed by comparing a spiritual truth with a physical reality. Nicodemus did not understand spiritual birth, but he could understand physical birth so that was where Jesus took him.
The other perspective is that “born of water” refers to spiritual cleansing and that Nicodemus would have naturally understood it that way. According to this view, “born of water” and “born of the Spirit” are different ways of saying the same thing, once metaphorically and once literally. Jesus’ words “born of water and the Spirit” describe different aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be “born again.” So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must “be born of water,” He was referring to his need for spiritual cleansing. Throughout the Old Testament, water is used figuratively of spiritual cleansing. For example, Ezekiel 36:25 says, “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities” (see also Numbers 19:17–19; and Psalm 51:2, 7). Nicodemus, a teacher of the law, would surely have been familiar with the concept of physical water representing spiritual purification.
The New Testament, too, uses water as a figure of the new birth. Regeneration is called a “washing” brought about by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Titus 3:5; cf. Ephesians 5:26; John 13:10). Christians are “washed . . . sanctified . . . justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11). The “washing” Paul speaks of here is a spiritual one.
Whichever perspective is correct, one thing is certain: Jesus was not teaching that one must be baptized in water in order to be saved. Baptism is nowhere mentioned in the context, nor did Jesus ever imply that we must do anything to inherit eternal life but trust in Him in faith (John 3:16). The emphasis of Jesus' words is on repentance and spiritual renewal—we need the “living water” Jesus later promised the woman at the well (John 4:10). Water baptism is an outward sign that we have given our lives to Jesus, but not a requirement for salvation (Luke 23:40–43).
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
@Studyman
Have you ever sung this spiritual great hymn? https://hymnary.org/text/hail_sovereign_love_that_first_began#google_vignette
1 Hail, sovereign love, that first began
The scheme to rescue fallen man!
Hail, matchless, free, eternal grace,
That gave my soul a hiding-place!
2 [Against the God who rules the sky
I fought with hand uplifted high;
Despised the mention of his grace,
Too proud to seek a hiding-place.
3 But thus the eternal counsel ran:
“Almighty love, arrest that man!”
I felt the arrows of distress,
And found I had no hiding-place.
4 Indignant Justice stood in view;
To Sinai’s fiery mount I flew;
But Justice cried, with frowning face,
“This mountain is no hiding-place!”
5 Ere long a heavenly voice I heard,
And Mercy’s angel-form appeared;
She led me on, with placid pace,
To Jesus, as my Hiding-place.]
6 Should storms of seven-fold thunder roll,
And shake the globe from pole to pole,
No flaming bolt could daunt my face,
For Jesus is my Hiding-place.
7 On him almighty vengeance fell,
That must have sunk a world to hell;
He bore it for a chosen race,
And thus became their Hiding-place.
8 A few more rolling suns, at most,
Will land me on fair Canaan’s coast,
Where I shall sing the song of grace,
And see my glorious Hiding-place.
All of God's children a shouted Amen and Amen! Praise be the the Lamb of God forever and ever...my secured hiding place.
Studyman, when we under the NT when we sin, we have an advocate.... Jesus Christ!
I have a meeting in a few minutes, must run.
It is but 9:00 am our time, can I ask you a question? What are you drinking, or smoking this early in the morning? So, you are taking what I said from Acts 13:39 and running to Moses.
Have you ever sung this spiritual great hymn? https://hymnary.org/text/hail_sovereign_love_that_first_began#google_vignette
1 Hail, sovereign love, that first began
The scheme to rescue fallen man!
Hail, matchless, free, eternal grace,
That gave my soul a hiding-place!
2 [Against the God who rules the sky
I fought with hand uplifted high;
Despised the mention of his grace,
Too proud to seek a hiding-place.
3 But thus the eternal counsel ran:
“Almighty love, arrest that man!”
I felt the arrows of distress,
And found I had no hiding-place.
4 Indignant Justice stood in view;
To Sinai’s fiery mount I flew;
But Justice cried, with frowning face,
“This mountain is no hiding-place!”
5 Ere long a heavenly voice I heard,
And Mercy’s angel-form appeared;
She led me on, with placid pace,
To Jesus, as my Hiding-place.]
6 Should storms of seven-fold thunder roll,
And shake the globe from pole to pole,
No flaming bolt could daunt my face,
For Jesus is my Hiding-place.
7 On him almighty vengeance fell,
That must have sunk a world to hell;
He bore it for a chosen race,
And thus became their Hiding-place.
8 A few more rolling suns, at most,
Will land me on fair Canaan’s coast,
Where I shall sing the song of grace,
And see my glorious Hiding-place.
All of God's children a shouted Amen and Amen! Praise be the the Lamb of God forever and ever...my secured hiding place.
Studyman, when we under the NT when we sin, we have an advocate.... Jesus Christ!
1 John 1:9
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”I have a meeting in a few minutes, must run.
@MTMattie, I am sorry, but I just do not agree with that analysis.
The washing that is spoken of in Titus 3:5 is from the Greek word λουτρόν [loutron]. That is the same would used to describe the results of Paul's meeting with Jesus on the road to Damascus; Act 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.' I thin k it is abundantly clear that the washing, the λουτρόν [loutron], that was demanded of Paul was indeed physical water baptism.
Nicodemus would have, without any doubt, be acutely aware of John's preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin and for the ministry of Jesus and His disciples also preaching the same baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin. I have no doubt whatsoever, that when Jesus spoke the words, "born of water and Spirit", Nicodemus knew exactly that Jesus meant water baptism.
When Nicodemus heard Jesus’ words for the first time, he had several good reasons to apply them to baptism. First of all, the fame of the ministry of John the Baptist, highlighted by the novelty of his baptizing repentant Jews cannot be overemphasized. All Israel knew that John baptized in water (see John 1:26-31). Nicodemus could not have helped but connect Jesus’ words with John’s work.
Second, Jesus’ own baptism by John, which must have been widely reported in that day and which is recorded for our reading, involved a conjunction of water baptism and the descent of the Spirit. See Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:21-22; John 1:32-33. Thus a reference to “water and Spirit” would naturally cause us to think of baptism.
Third, John the Baptist’s teaching contained a strong emphasis on the distinction between water baptism and Spirit baptism. See Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16; John 1:33. This is capsulized in Mark 1:8, “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Thus again, when “water and Spirit” are mentioned together in John 3:5, we would quite naturally think of baptism.
Fourth, another aspect of John’s teaching was the relation between his water baptism and the coming kingdom (Matt. 3:2). Thus in John 3:5, when Jesus relates water and the kingdom, it again brings baptism to mind.
I could go on, but I will stop there.
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I have responded to fact. You seem not to understand nor comprehend any of it. I have no ability to change that. And since a rational argument seems to be quite beyond you, there is no reason for me to continue to try to convince you of anything.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
You wouldn't know a proof of anything if it kicked you in your backside.
Maybe you should just go back to your sandbox where you belong.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
I am trying
I am not the one mocking someone as not knowing anything
I am just calling out what he teaches.
civic
Active Member
Thanks
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